2008-03-07, 09:51 | Link #801 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I dunno. If you assume that Nanoha flies at Mach One, then Divine Buster must be faster than that since it overtook her.
Look, you're stressed, I'm stressed, go and sleep and leave this alone for a while. Furthermore, let me remind you of something. This is not Zeropoint. This is not GURPS. This is most certainly not PSDF or Omoi. This is Nanoverse. Deal with it and suck it up.
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2008-03-07, 13:11 | Link #802 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Yeah, at the end of the day, we're still talking about anime here. Same genre where two guys can spend fifteen minutes carving into each other with swords and both walk away afterwards... there's going to be some suspension of disbelief involved for the visual medium, along the order of "why not attack them during the transformation sequence" and all that.
Specifically, in Nanoha, we don't ever see anyone actually outrunning a magical attack; outmaneuvering, sure, and there's plenty of stuff that's incoming on Fate that's not much faster than her (and she's pretty quick). So presumably, people don't outrun magical attacks. It's useless to break out the protractors and rulers and start measuring the advance of pixels across the screen to try to deduce weapon speeds. That's like doing the same thing for City Hunter and determining that the "crucial bullet" scenes have a bullet moping along instead of speeding to the target. No, it's just that the action's slowed down for dramatic effect, just like in every other show that's existed since the beginning of time! It's just easier to come to that conclusion for City Hunter because we know how fast bullets are supposed to go, and the bullets in City Hunter certainly act like normal bullets. With Nanoha, we don't have the external reference, but that's no reason to assume that you can get away from a Divine Buster by simply outrunning it... |
2008-03-07, 13:34 | Link #804 | ||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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And of course they distort time in other ways too- portray simultaneous events in consecutive shots, or crib from manga and jam one text bubble's worth of speech into one panel's worth of animation regardless of whether saying so much in such a situation makes any sense.
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2008-03-07, 19:11 | Link #805 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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How can we say, for example, that ATC setting his Lance Rifle's speed at 2000m/s is out of balance, other than by breaking out protractors and rulers (actually it is mostly the pixel counting tool) to say that mage combat simply doesn't move that fast (though it is recently determined that their shaped charge explosions could move that fast...) |
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2008-03-07, 19:52 | Link #806 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Hey, reality doesn't necessarily mean there's a source for your answer; in a lot of cases, there's just no real answer in canon. Rather than try to make up technical specs, though, isn't it better to measure stuff relatively? It's not beyond belief that someone could come up with a "quick beam" that is harder to dodge than a normal one because it propagates faster, okay, but why do you have to hang a number off it that you figure is no good? ;p
When you're writing fic, using the known characters as a baseline is generally a good idea. If you've got Nanoha and Nanoha's reputed to be really, really good at something, your original character ought to have a really, really good reason to have something that's got better performance than her in pretty much any category. One trick pony, lost logia assist, ate his Wheaties that morning, what have you. I stay out of the OC thread - the only thing I write for Nanoha is, er, canon. ^^ |
2008-03-07, 22:17 | Link #807 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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But what if you have a "crossover" situation. This does not mean necessarily crossover with another anime. It can also mean, for example, your original enemy organization that oh, uses mass weapons. In that case, what is the correct relative merits and demerits? How would you assess them, if not first by taking a good look at the onscreen performance to use as a reference? |
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2008-03-08, 10:21 | Link #808 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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2008-03-08, 10:35 | Link #809 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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And yet, everyone accepts that Gundams are that easy to control. |
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2008-03-08, 10:56 | Link #810 | ||
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2008-03-08, 14:44 | Link #811 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Scientific methodology has served us quite well for hundreds of years in which reality was dictated by consistent physical laws instead of the whims of animators. If it's impossible to take an accurate measurement, science can't help you.
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2008-03-08, 19:52 | Link #813 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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There's a level of uncertainty beyond which measurement is no longer useful. Specifically, you cannot get results that are more certain than an uncertain measurement; if your instruments only give you an answer to plus or minus ten percent, you cannot use them to come up with a measurement that only varies plus or minus five percent.
Measuring things like speed or distance from animation is way, way less accurate than plus or minus ten percent. Animators going for a given visual effect may not be consistent with past scenes of the same action - even something as simple as loading a cartridge will take different amounts of time depending on which scene you're talking about. Nor are they worried about keeping it consistent in that fashion - if they can achieve the same effect with fewer frames of animation, or if they have to speed something up a bit to match the piece of music they have, they'll do it, even if it plays hob with the measurements. You -could- still use statistical analysis to determine a mean value; that way, outliers caused by weird animation frames or what have you will tend to be reduced. You'd also be able to come up with a reasonable analysis of the variance from that mean, which would give you an idea of exactly how much the animators tended to vary that particular what have you. However, that doesn't help you much for Nanoha, mostly because statistical analysis requires a certain amount of "events" with which to process, and very few things in Nanoha happen frequently enough to yield a statistical result closer than "wild-assed guess". Even something that happens 20 or 25 times will still yield quite poor numbers simply because of the nature of statistical analysis, forget the actual variances involved. (And it gets complicated even more if you consider re-used animation, which will tend to reinforce certain numbers without necessarily stating that the values derived from that footage were the "correct" ones...) One of the important tools of the scientist is a keen appreciation of what his tools are capable of, and what they're not. You can flail around with the latter, but it's not really science anymore... |
2008-03-08, 22:59 | Link #814 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Do you think there is no arc of values when discussing, say, Star Wars? In fact, Star Wars values arc over several orders of magnitude. Compared to that, anything MGLN can offer will likely be at least in the same order of magnitude. Let me ask you. How will you handle it if such things happened in real life. Generally, you will take the most powerful measurement that you believe you have taken reliably. Because no matter how psychologically asinine it seems, it is much easier to rationalize them using lower values than using the lower value as base and rationalizing the high value. Which is why, by the way, Trekkies and Warsies used to fight each other to the death over the "high-end" incidents. It isn't good enough to just process it out with "averaging". Once even a single high incident is established as reliable, it becomes the base. |
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2008-03-09, 00:40 | Link #815 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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One points out that real life doesn't work like animation. If I see something in real life, I can go measure it -in real life-. I don't have to worry about how many frames the animators decided to animate in that sequence. And I can do it again and again if I need to... ;p
I actually used to discuss Star Trek tech issues, back in the old BBS days. Then I realized that the writers weren't working off a realized model that they were referring back to - the tech did what the plot needed it to do, regardless of whether it was consistent with past shows or not, regardless of whether it would be inconvenient for future shows or not. And Star Trek actually had people trying to hold together consistency on that kind of issue, which is generally not the case with anime. Then I aged fifteen years and rewrote most of Eva. You can understand why I'm a bit jaded... ;p So no, of course they're not unique. Precisely because they're not unique, I can safely blow 'em off... I'm not saying that it's impossible to analyze the show and get some figures; however, I -am- saying that it's impossible to conclude that those figures are representative of anything that the creators had in mind, as opposed to just how it worked out when they drew it. That goes double for a show like Nanoha, which, to put it honestly, played it really fast and loose with animation quality here and there. Not only is it impossible to conclude that, it's not even plausible to -assume- it... but a lot of that is personal judgment; I do have some rather applicable experience on that topic, but that doesn't mean that reasonable people can't disagree. Seriously, though, when it comes to writing, aren't the intuitive guesses you mention just as good? You -shouldn't- be pulling numbers out of a hat and then looking them up against known values to see what kind of implications they have. If you're designing a magical shot, you don't just say "oh, it's three million thaums" and then look up on the table and say "uh, my rookie pilot is more powerful than Hayate, lol!" The correct way to do that is to decide the implications you're looking for, then reference the numbers... except by that point you don't even really need them. Take the season 1 "magical power reading", when they pull out a big number to measure Nanoha and Fate's power. Never happens again, right? Even though there's plenty of opportunities to measure whether a particular mage is powerful or not, right? That's because, at the end of the day, putting a number on everything just leads to the "THAT'S OVER 9000!" school of thinking, and this ain't Dragon Ball. |
2008-03-09, 01:03 | Link #816 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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That's of course NOT what the authors intended - they really intended them to be exceptions, but that's the law of unintended consequences. 400 exceptions means it is a rule. Quote:
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2008-03-09, 01:59 | Link #817 | ||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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At some level you're accepting the creators' intent, or your entire system would self-negate when it reached the conclusion that the setting it is being applied to isn't real.
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2008-03-09, 02:25 | Link #818 |
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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Hi guys sorry to interrupt, but a group of us (me, Lowegear, AdmiralTigerclaw, WildGoose, Jimmy_C, LimitedEternal, ghazghkull) were discussing about barrier jackets. We came up with something like this and would like for you guys you see if what we think can be correct.
Barrier Jackets - A theory
What do you guys think? |
2008-03-09, 05:53 | Link #819 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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You seem to be of the type that insists that if the Observation is imperfect, you think that wild-a*sed guesses are equal. Quote:
The first and third question are a little harder, because it is anime. But ultimately the base question is the same. What will we do if this were all real, that this represents a real situation. The anime, thus, becomes the recreation of that situation, and one of the few sources we have (we have the manga and the one novel too). Are you going to throw up your hands or are you going to buckle down and analyze? Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-09 at 06:06. |
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