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mtarzaim · 2012-09-10, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Like I said, I really didn't care for Hody's true identity. After finding out what it was, I really, really do not see the significance. Does it mean that Luffy can kill him now without remorse?

The message in itself is really important.
Perhaps the most cunning ever displayed in One Piece: the danger of hatred passed down to children.
Naruto did it too in his own way, but One Piece add a new layer to it. You may hate someone or some country for a reason, but if you keep telling your children to hate those enemy, they will hate even more, but without any "subtance".
In Naruto, you always get some personal trauma for ninjas to kill each other, the cycle of hatred renew itself with each generation.
In One Piece, more specifically in Hordy case, they've been taught since so long humans are trash they ended up loathing them for no personal reason.

It's then One Piece's message gets interesting : what do you do of this hatred you passed to your children? What will they do with it?
We're speaking here about fanaticism, about people formating their offspring to hate, without thinking about the consequences in the long run. In Fishmen Island situation: a bunch of extremists, ready to kill everything and everyone just because they exist. You cannot convince them. You cannot find a middle ground. You've turned your own heirs into your worst nightmare, your most lethal ennemy. And you can only blame yourself for that.

You could easily apply this to some contested countries from our real world: adults hate each other for genuine reasons, but they're passing this hatred to their children too, hoping they will continue/succeed in the war. But what if there is no war to wage then? What will happen when it's time to build peace?

The issue here is this message is maybe weakly delivered.
It's hard to link it to Otohime's message ("don't let it pass to our children" ) or Fisher Tiger's secret. Or even to give it a broader meaning.
Maybe it will get more clear in the next episode. They certainly won't waste an occasion to filler more with old scenes...

thundrakkon · 2012-09-10, 18:41

Those are some very good points you brought up, mtarzaim. And you used some really good examples.

So in general, it was to get across the moral of discrimination and hatred. As for how significant it would be for Luffy to know about it, I don't think it is that significant.

Before Luffy knew about --> he had to beat up Hordy.
After Luffy knew about it --> he still has to beat up Hordy.

Hence, I did not understand the significance. I guess Oda wanted to get a message across, but in world, it does not seem to affect anything. They made it seem like it was such a huge revelation, too.

paradox13 · 2012-09-10, 19:52

I thought it was pretty obvious.

The whole theme of this arc is racial hatred, discrimination and to a lesser extent, individualism and slavery.

thundrakkon · 2012-09-10, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by paradox13

I thought it was pretty obvious.

The whole theme of this arc is racial hatred, discrimination and to a lesser extent, individualism and slavery.

Yes, it was. Hence, I did not see the significance in what they said. It did not change anything we already knew. Hordy did not suddenly seem more evil. He has always exibited hatred and discrimination. Hence, this revelation felt flat.

Divine Punisher · 2012-09-12, 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdeal000

Nobody dies in One Piece, except Ace and Whitebeard (and they died only for Luffy's character development). Oda really hates killing his characters. What will happen to Hordy will be a lot more fun

.... and Gol D. Roger.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2012-09-12, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Punisher

.... and Gol D. Roger.

He's talking about outside of flashbacks/the past. In other words, the present/current story.

carcanclaw · 2012-09-12, 11:55

Yikes.... just caught up on this arc and I see why people are upset about the pacing.

I agree with anyone who says One Piece should go back to having filler arcs. Unlike Bleach and Naruto, the characters in One Piece are arguably more interesting when they aren't fighting. Since comedy is such a natural part of the show, making humorous fillers feels less forced than in other shows.

Fairy Tail's recent filler arc is pretty awesome. No reason why OP can't pull off something similar, and it would seriously aid with the flow of canon material.

Divine Punisher · 2012-09-12, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

He's talking about outside of flashbacks/the past. In other words, the present/current story.

And i was talking about the people whos death had an influence on luffys character. I dont think a distinction between flashbacks and current story is relevant here.

Blackbeard D. Kuma · 2012-09-12, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Punisher

And i was talking about the people whos death had an influence on luffys character. I dont think a distinction between flashbacks and current story is relevant here.

Roger's death influenced many pirates, so that partially serving as Luffy's impetus to become pirate king isn't exactly pertinent to what bigdeal000 was talking about. Ace and Whitebeard died during Luffy's lifetime, the former of which died before his very eyes. Obviously, those deaths impacted Luffy's character development far more than Roger's did.

The distinction between flashbacks and current story is relevant here, because bigdeal000's post was obviously in the context of the present/current story (he only talked about character development in parentheses, which served as supplementary information but not as the main point).

Divine Punisher · 2012-09-13, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

The distinction between flashbacks and current story is relevant here, because bigdeal000's post was obviously in the context of the present/current story (he only talked about character development in parentheses, which served as supplementary information but not as the main point).

You cant talk about context, when confronted with such a general statement.
Besides, youre doing it again, those unnecessary distinctions. Why should it matter here, if the character development is a byproduct or a main point of a somebodys death?

thundrakkon · 2012-09-16, 01:46

Wow, Oda just parodied and insulted a lot of hate and political groups this past episode. I hope they will not start giving him death threats and assassination attempts like they do so many other "artists" from around the world.

Other than that, not much else happened this episode. They finally filled Noah with a bubble, and... that was it.

ookamigirl · 2012-09-16, 04:39

Looks like Hordy is just a cold blooded, emotionless killing machine.
Guess he's a product of circumstances...
Flashbacks were interesting.
So the truth about the past finally cam out.

Dist · 2012-09-16, 06:03

What a worthless episode. Past of Hordy that no one cares about, flashbacks we've seen 10 times already about that princess ... Man ... Fishman arc is the worst of ALL arcs in OP EVER. (so far anyway) ... How many months will it still take for us to finally move into a new arc, an interesting one I hope at that?

Randrak42 · 2012-09-16, 08:50

I for one really liked the Hody flashback...it better explained what the prince meant by hatred without substance and it also showed that you don't need something tragic or bad to happen to a person to make them hate someone else...which is what mostly happens with racism and other forms of hatred in RL.

True, this arc was not the best one we've had in One Piece but it isn't the worst by a long shot. I'll say the same thing I said back in the manga at this time...people grew too used to arcs like ID and the War at the Summit. These arcs focused more on action, every episode, if not every other episode there was fighting of some kind with actual story parts being short in comparison. Some people seemed to have grown used to this being an action manga rather than an adventure manga.
People say that this arc is being stretched out...true some things here and there might be (the anime trying to buy time doesn't help) but this arc lasted exactly 50 chapters in the manga and should end at 46/47 episodes...as for the other big arcs:

Alabasta arc- 62 chapters/38 episodes
Skypiea arc- 65 chapters/42 episodes
Water 7 arc- 52 chapters/36 episodes
Enies Lobby arc- 55 chapters/48 episodes
Thriller Bark arc- 47 chapters/44 episodes
Impel Down arc- 24 chapters/31 episodes
Marineford War arc- 31 chapters/30 episodes

Noticed how in the manga this arc isn't even close to being the longest however it is true that it is close to being the longest episode wise. BUT you should also keep in mind how closer to the chapter number the episode number has become in recent arcs, this is because the format switched to around 1 chapter = 1 episode...give or take. Had the Alabasta and Skypiea arcs been done today in the same style as this and the previous couple of arcs then you can be damn sure that they would have a lot more episodes, being closer to the chapter number.

So if anything it is not the plot that is being drawn out, but rather the poor execution of the episodes due to the story in each being stretched out to fit the 1/1 format, adding mini-fillers and longer useless scenes (like long stare-downs and laughs).
It's funny though, shows like Naruto have tons of filler arcs and episodes even being added in the middle of actual canon arcs, they also use the stretched out stares and other scenes but few mini-fillers. This is also an example of a show where I HATE the filler arcs/episodes.
One Piece on the other hand has few filler arcs/episodes (in comparison) but a shit ton of mini-filers. However I for one love One Piece filler arcs, they are really well done and entertaining, as opposed to the Naruto (and the Bleach ones btw).

There's two options really, if you want to go back to the Alabasta and Skypiea arc days where they made episodes that covered more than 1 chapter and added few filler than you'll need filler arcs in between canon arcs.
If you want few filler arcs then you need to stick to the 1/1 format and add the mini-fillers and stretched out scenes.

It also doesn't help that the opening+previous episode scenes takes up nearly 1/4 of a 20 minute episode...

Dist · 2012-09-16, 09:26

I thought we had had much more episodes by now than what you stated .. I suppose it is because I absolutely HATE this arc so it feels like it's going on and on for forever and beyond. We finally have the crew back together and then this bs .. Some may like it, some may not. It's not that I hate it because it lacks in action, but because I just really can't bring myself to care about fishmen AT ALL... so even less about their story. I didn't even watch this episode .. Started it, oh look it's filler. I skipped 10 minutes ahead ... still looks filler to me. Skipped 7 minutes ahead .. Oh now stuff is happening .. they got the Noah in the bubble .. BAM EPISODE ENDS ... Oh great.

I'd so much rather have MUCH quicker arcs packed with action .. It's not hard to pack a good story into those too, you could definitely do this arc with 20 episodes or less and still leave people satisfied, but in exchange we'd have to watch a filler arc. And I really really really would not mind a filler arc if it was well done. There's no reason to do all arcs badly because else anime will catch up .. Can't they do each arc properly, and add PROPER and GOOD filler arcs together with them?

Also btw the way Naruto has filler arcs is retarded. Remember that time with Pain? They could've showed us the whole arc before moving onto filler, but instead they left us hanging and started showing fillers in MIDDLE of the arc ...

FlareKnight · 2012-09-16, 09:48

I will say this hasn't been my favorite arc. Some episodes it just feels like nothing has happened. Now I didn't think it was a terrible idea to use the flashback to show how Hody reached this point. Wasn't a big deal to give Lucci one. But of course Hody just isn't very appealing as a villain. The flashback pretty much telling you why, because there is nothing to this guy. Had nothing driving him so just jumped onto the hatred of others and used it.

Do think it might be best to go into a pretty significant filler arc after this. They couldn't do that before this point. First they were separated, then prison, a giant war, and then bringing the crew back together. Have to get them into the new world first before they can try something. I'd take filler arcs if it meant we could get closer to the older method. The episodes were more gripping when they didn't have to contain themselves to 1 chapter or less per episode.

On a positive note, gotta love Zoro. He just gets bored with this best swordsman the enemy has.

Kmos · 2012-09-16, 19:27

I like the fishman island arc fine: The early losses of the two people who tried to bring change and those who carried out their legacies (rightfully and wrongfully), those like Hordi and gang, creepy stalker, and the real showing of mugiwara pirates' powers. Oh, don't forget the mermaids!

Oda is packing more and more into his stories, the bigger the playground and the more characters, the more he goes into things.

The latest episode is good by me, dragged out as it is. At least there were less prolonged shots the last two episodes, I think. It goes fully detailed (and filler filled) into the kind of group Hordi and company grew up in. Maybe it's to explain it to the kids watching or for the really dense adults.

Randrak42 · 2012-09-16, 21:44

Next episode (I think) will be filled with many crowning moments of awesome BTW...I seriously can't wait for next week.

chaos_animagic · 2012-09-17, 00:33

ep 563... the only thing that was interesting to me was Nico Robin's "cloning herself"...

Just think of the possibilities she can do with that ability... *imagines* (H)

ep 564... Hordy's past... it's kinda similar to how Media in RL is, where people tends to believe what others tells them, Media, Religions, etc.
And while growing up... all Hordy & group hear is.. Human did this, Human did that, Humans are evil, etc etc...
It's kinda the same as Emo ppls in RL, and those that ends up doing drugs and crimes...

Tho I agree the dude talked for way too long... does it really need to repeat the same thing in different phrases over 10 times?
BTW... how can he have tears when he's already in water?... is he crying oil or something? LOL

Interesting about the 2 episode is... I just realized that almost everything that's wrong in One Piece all originated from those stupid Celestial Dragons...

Randrak42 · 2012-09-17, 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos_animagic

Interesting about the 2 episode is... I just realized that almost everything that's wrong in One Piece all originated from those stupid Celestial Dragons...

Not everything but yea...those guys (or people trying to please them) are at the root of a lot of crap in the OP world.

2012-09-10, 18:41	Link #582
thundrakkon Anime-Only Viewer Graphic Designer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: USA	Those are some very good points you brought up, mtarzaim. And you used some really good examples. So in general, it was to get across the moral of discrimination and hatred. As for how significant it would be for Luffy to know about it, I don't think it is that significant. Before Luffy knew about --> he had to beat up Hordy. After Luffy knew about it --> he still has to beat up Hordy. Hence, I did not understand the significance. I guess Oda wanted to get a message across, but in world, it does not seem to affect anything. They made it seem like it was such a huge revelation, too. __________________

2012-09-10, 19:52	Link #583
paradox13 zzz Join Date: May 2009 Age: 32	I thought it was pretty obvious. The whole theme of this arc is racial hatred, discrimination and to a lesser extent, individualism and slavery. __________________ Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.

2012-09-16, 01:46	Link #591
thundrakkon Anime-Only Viewer Graphic Designer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: USA	Wow, Oda just parodied and insulted a lot of hate and political groups this past episode. I hope they will not start giving him death threats and assassination attempts like they do so many other "artists" from around the world. Other than that, not much else happened this episode. They finally filled Noah with a bubble, and... that was it. __________________

2012-09-16, 04:39	Link #592
ookamigirl Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Looks like Hordy is just a cold blooded, emotionless killing machine. Guess he's a product of circumstances... Flashbacks were interesting. So the truth about the past finally cam out. __________________ My Blog --> ookami

2012-09-16, 06:03	Link #593
Dist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Age: 33	What a worthless episode. Past of Hordy that no one cares about, flashbacks we've seen 10 times already about that princess ... Man ... Fishman arc is the worst of ALL arcs in OP EVER. (so far anyway) ... How many months will it still take for us to finally move into a new arc, an interesting one I hope at that? __________________

2012-09-12, 11:55	Link #587
carcanclaw Kitty? Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 33	Yikes.... just caught up on this arc and I see why people are upset about the pacing. I agree with anyone who says One Piece should go back to having filler arcs. Unlike Bleach and Naruto, the characters in One Piece are arguably more interesting when they aren't fighting. Since comedy is such a natural part of the show, making humorous fillers feels less forced than in other shows. Fairy Tail's recent filler arc is pretty awesome. No reason why OP can't pull off something similar, and it would seriously aid with the flow of canon material.

2012-09-16, 08:50	Link #594
Randrak42 ANEGO Worshiper Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.	I for one really liked the Hody flashback...it better explained what the prince meant by hatred without substance and it also showed that you don't need something tragic or bad to happen to a person to make them hate someone else...which is what mostly happens with racism and other forms of hatred in RL. True, this arc was not the best one we've had in One Piece but it isn't the worst by a long shot. I'll say the same thing I said back in the manga at this time...people grew too used to arcs like ID and the War at the Summit. These arcs focused more on action, every episode, if not every other episode there was fighting of some kind with actual story parts being short in comparison. Some people seemed to have grown used to this being an action manga rather than an adventure manga. People say that this arc is being stretched out...true some things here and there might be (the anime trying to buy time doesn't help) but this arc lasted exactly 50 chapters in the manga and should end at 46/47 episodes...as for the other big arcs: Alabasta arc- 62 chapters/38 episodes Skypiea arc- 65 chapters/42 episodes Water 7 arc- 52 chapters/36 episodes Enies Lobby arc- 55 chapters/48 episodes Thriller Bark arc- 47 chapters/44 episodes Impel Down arc- 24 chapters/31 episodes Marineford War arc- 31 chapters/30 episodes Noticed how in the manga this arc isn't even close to being the longest however it is true that it is close to being the longest episode wise. BUT you should also keep in mind how closer to the chapter number the episode number has become in recent arcs, this is because the format switched to around 1 chapter = 1 episode...give or take. Had the Alabasta and Skypiea arcs been done today in the same style as this and the previous couple of arcs then you can be damn sure that they would have a lot more episodes, being closer to the chapter number. So if anything it is not the plot that is being drawn out, but rather the poor execution of the episodes due to the story in each being stretched out to fit the 1/1 format, adding mini-fillers and longer useless scenes (like long stare-downs and laughs). It's funny though, shows like Naruto have tons of filler arcs and episodes even being added in the middle of actual canon arcs, they also use the stretched out stares and other scenes but few mini-fillers. This is also an example of a show where I HATE the filler arcs/episodes. One Piece on the other hand has few filler arcs/episodes (in comparison) but a shit ton of mini-filers. However I for one love One Piece filler arcs, they are really well done and entertaining, as opposed to the Naruto (and the Bleach ones btw). There's two options really, if you want to go back to the Alabasta and Skypiea arc days where they made episodes that covered more than 1 chapter and added few filler than you'll need filler arcs in between canon arcs. If you want few filler arcs then you need to stick to the 1/1 format and add the mini-fillers and stretched out scenes. It also doesn't help that the opening+previous episode scenes takes up nearly 1/4 of a 20 minute episode...

2012-09-16, 09:26	Link #595
Dist Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Age: 33	I thought we had had much more episodes by now than what you stated .. I suppose it is because I absolutely HATE this arc so it feels like it's going on and on for forever and beyond. We finally have the crew back together and then this bs .. Some may like it, some may not. It's not that I hate it because it lacks in action, but because I just really can't bring myself to care about fishmen AT ALL... so even less about their story. I didn't even watch this episode .. Started it, oh look it's filler. I skipped 10 minutes ahead ... still looks filler to me. Skipped 7 minutes ahead .. Oh now stuff is happening .. they got the Noah in the bubble .. BAM EPISODE ENDS ... Oh great. I'd so much rather have MUCH quicker arcs packed with action .. It's not hard to pack a good story into those too, you could definitely do this arc with 20 episodes or less and still leave people satisfied, but in exchange we'd have to watch a filler arc. And I really really really would not mind a filler arc if it was well done. There's no reason to do all arcs badly because else anime will catch up .. Can't they do each arc properly, and add PROPER and GOOD filler arcs together with them? Also btw the way Naruto has filler arcs is retarded. Remember that time with Pain? They could've showed us the whole arc before moving onto filler, but instead they left us hanging and started showing fillers in MIDDLE of the arc ... __________________

2012-09-16, 09:48	Link #596
FlareKnight User of the "Fast Draw" Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada	I will say this hasn't been my favorite arc. Some episodes it just feels like nothing has happened. Now I didn't think it was a terrible idea to use the flashback to show how Hody reached this point. Wasn't a big deal to give Lucci one. But of course Hody just isn't very appealing as a villain. The flashback pretty much telling you why, because there is nothing to this guy. Had nothing driving him so just jumped onto the hatred of others and used it. Do think it might be best to go into a pretty significant filler arc after this. They couldn't do that before this point. First they were separated, then prison, a giant war, and then bringing the crew back together. Have to get them into the new world first before they can try something. I'd take filler arcs if it meant we could get closer to the older method. The episodes were more gripping when they didn't have to contain themselves to 1 chapter or less per episode. On a positive note, gotta love Zoro. He just gets bored with this best swordsman the enemy has. __________________ Anime-Evo

2012-09-16, 19:27	Link #597
Kmos Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: NY	I like the fishman island arc fine: The early losses of the two people who tried to bring change and those who carried out their legacies (rightfully and wrongfully), those like Hordi and gang, creepy stalker, and the real showing of mugiwara pirates' powers. Oh, don't forget the mermaids! Oda is packing more and more into his stories, the bigger the playground and the more characters, the more he goes into things. The latest episode is good by me, dragged out as it is. At least there were less prolonged shots the last two episodes, I think. It goes fully detailed (and filler filled) into the kind of group Hordi and company grew up in. Maybe it's to explain it to the kids watching or for the really dense adults.

2012-09-16, 21:44	Link #598
Randrak42 ANEGO Worshiper Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: By the vending machine, drinking tea.	Next episode (I think) will be filled with many crowning moments of awesome BTW...I seriously can't wait for next week.

2012-09-17, 00:33	Link #599
chaos_animagic Senior Member Join Date: May 2009	ep 563... the only thing that was interesting to me was Nico Robin's "cloning herself"... Just think of the possibilities she can do with that ability... imagines (H) ep 564... Hordy's past... it's kinda similar to how Media in RL is, where people tends to believe what others tells them, Media, Religions, etc. And while growing up... all Hordy & group hear is.. Human did this, Human did that, Humans are evil, etc etc... It's kinda the same as Emo ppls in RL, and those that ends up doing drugs and crimes... Tho I agree the dude talked for way too long... does it really need to repeat the same thing in different phrases over 10 times? BTW... how can he have tears when he's already in water?... is he crying oil or something? LOL Interesting about the 2 episode is... I just realized that almost everything that's wrong in One Piece all originated from those stupid Celestial Dragons... Last edited by chaos_animagic; 2012-09-17 at 01:01.