[Manga] Naruto Chapter 623 Discussion Thread (no new chapter the week of 3/11/13)

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by sayde

Regardless though, if we look at teams from previous generations, team balance seems to be the aimed intention when designating genin to their respective Jounin leaders. Its why we have multiple instances of previous teams sharing a Naruto/Sasuke dynamic where one of the genin starts out as the untalented loser matched up with the blooming prodigy. (ie: Jiraiya/Oro, Kakashi/Obito)

If they could raise the strength of a weak guy near the level of the elite just by placing them into a team with an elite sensei and an elite guy then why wouldn't they try to do the same with everybody? It's a huge waste to not teach all the other weak and average genins to become elite jounin or even kage level. On the other hand if you place a genius and a dropout on the same team then how can every weak guy become strong, not one has failed. The obvious answer is that the teachers see the talent in people like Jiraiya or Obito so they know that with more pressure and higher level goals they won't fail.

Originally Posted by sayde

That only seems logical in a darwin-like system where the goal is to systematically have the weakest people die off. So I'd like to think that the people in charge of designing 3-man genin squads don't have that sort-of mentality.

No, that's the opposite: you don't place weak people in teams with very strong to avoid them being killed or simply give up on the ninja life because they realize how hopeless it is to compete with the stronger team members or even keep up. That way an elite genin team can take on B or A level missions while an average team can have D and C level missions, and they both can have the same success and satisfaction by finishing their missions. Every team needs to face a challenge that is appropriate for them, not too strong enemies but also not too weak, otherwise they either die/fail or they don't grow in strength.

Originally Posted by sayde

I still think there's a little more to it than that. Just look at Naruto and Konohamaru. Even back when Naruto's skills weren't even on par with the average Genin, he becomes Konohamaru's mentor. So here we have a prime example of a future Kage level shinobi destined for greatness, coincidentally becoming a mentor of another shinobi who could foreseeably become Kage level someday in the far off future.

Isn't that an example of what i said? Kishimoto has built close relation between these two, and with that also between them and the 3rd hokage. Naruto randomly meets Konohamaru who turns out to be not only the hokage's grandson but also a talented guy. But why does Konohamaru have to be related to the 3rd who was acting as Naruto's foster parent. It's obviously to create stronger relations between these characters.

Originally Posted by sayde

It's a reoccurring pattern throughout the leaf's history it seems. Fate dictates that if you're taught by someone who will become or already is Kage level, then no matter how unremarkable your background maybe or how ordinary your skills started out as (ie: Jiraiya, Sakura) you will be on the path to becoming Kage-tier yourself someday (if you live long enough)

We could say that the only reason no other genin from konoha is a sage is because Jiraiya didn't tell them where is the place and the frogs would not train them What if Neji tried to train there and succeeded, life is really not fair with other genins, they get no kyuubi, no sage training, no kage level sensei and no strong opponents whose strength increases just to match Naruto's current strength

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I am pretty sure the data book said the countries existed long before the villages. Naruto is very much based on Feudal Japan. The Land of Fire and the clans were around long before Konoha was founded.

I don't know about that, it can be the case, but regardless of that i think that wouldn't be logical. If there exists a fire country with one feudal lord then why would he let the various ninja clans create chaos accross his country by having non stop battles and because of that have civilian population die and also ruin the economy. It was also said that ninja clans were hired by different feudal lords. But if there was a top feudal lord who ruled a country he should not let his subordinate feudal lords fight against each other using ninjas because that would ruin the fire country. A fire country feudal lord would hire the top clans to kill such renegade lower level feudal lords to avoid chaos and the possibility that they turn against the lord of the fire country. I mean they could then hire for example the Senju and Uchiha to get rid of the fire lord and then have the country for themselves. Sure we can say that the fire country exists but each day it has a different lord because the ninja killed the yesterdays's boss But can we really call that a country where there's total chaos. Also if there's chaos then why wouldn't feudal lords of other countries try to cut off some parts from it. If there's no central power then what is it that defines a country? A language or nationality? They don't have such things as far as i know. Isn't it more logical that the distribution of military power is reflected in the distribution of political power? Of course here i'm assuming that the military power are the ninja and there's no other power that can compete with that. Considering how in the recent chapters they tell us that the average life expectancy was about 30 years because of the chaos of war i think that assumption is probably right. Also i think that the hate directed towards ninja that we saw when Haku's story was told is caused by this, but that's just an assumption.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

If they could raise the strength of a weak guy near the level of the elite just by placing them into a team with an elite sensei and an elite guy then why wouldn't they try to do the same with everybody?

Well to be fair, there only ever seems to be one future kage level jounin available at any given time. Kakashi's this generations candidate. So its not like they have kage level sensei's available to pair up with every weak genin that graduates from the academy at a moments notice. But at the very least, they do seem to try and put less skilled team mates with more skilled team mates. Lee sucked. That's why he got paired up with Neji. Hinata sucked. That's why she got paired up with Shino.

But for the most part, not everyone is going to be so easy to classify. The examples I often refer to only deal with the extreme cases that pop-up maybe once per generation. That's to say, the majority of graduates from the academy seem to fall more or less into that average ordinary skill level. So they in turn get paired up with other average ordinary genin and jounin, which logically results in whats deemed to be a balanced team. In the end, the reason why a weak genin isn't paired up with an elite genin and sensei is because its a rather rare occurrence for a truly weak genin to graduate at the same time as a truly gifted prodigy while the most elite jounin just happens to be available to lead a new squad for the next few years. Actually now that I mentioned it, it really does seem more and more like fate and destiny play a huge role in things.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's a huge waste to not teach all the other weak and average genins to become elite jounin or even kage level. On the other hand if you place a genius and a dropout on the same team then how can every weak guy become strong, not one has failed. The obvious answer is that the teachers see the talent in people like Jiraiya or Obito so they know that with more pressure and higher level goals they won't fail.

I think that's rather presumptuous. Since we have no idea who was in charge of designating these genin to 3 man squads over the years, we can't just assume that the people who put the losers on the same squads as the future kage's and genius's knew about the losers potential. I think its more likely that the absolute worst of the bunch get paired up with the absolute best because that's what the data dictates what would result in the most balanced team to the powers that be. I don't think there's anyway to prove that these losers and dropouts of the time ended up with elite teammates just because they were recognized by someone to have potential even before they were assigned to their respective squads.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

No, that's the opposite: you don't place weak people in teams with very strong to avoid them being killed or simply give up on the ninja life because they realize how hopeless it is to compete with the stronger team members or even keep up.

First off, I think they do put weak people with stronger people to decrease the chance of them being killed off. Secondly, we're rarely shown instances of weak genin realizing how hopeless it is to compete with their superior counterpart. They may go through phases where they feel that way. But in the end, it's the opposite. Having weak genin on a team with more capable genin only seems to serve as a motivator to the weakest links to get stronger most of the time.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That way an elite genin team can take on B or A level missions while an average team can have D and C level missions, and they both can have the same success and satisfaction by finishing their missions.

I don't believe less skilled genin feel the same sense of success and satisfaction from completing low leveled missions as the elite teams get from finishing high level missions. I could see that being the case, if all missions (regardless of rank) were regarded as equally important and equally valued. But shinobi who are mitigated to doing nothing but menial work know it and so there's not much praise or sense of accomplishment and achievement to be gained from it. They also know that their records don't look all too impressive if low leveled missions are the only ones they're known for completing. So about the only thing I see happening to an average team doing nothing but D and C rank missions for their entire career is an increase of complacency and a loss of self-esteem and confidence.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Isn't that an example of what i said? Kishimoto has built close relation between these two, and with that also between them and the 3rd hokage. Naruto randomly meets Konohamaru who turns out to be not only the hokage's grandson but also a talented guy. But why does Konohamaru have to be related to the 3rd who was acting as Naruto's foster parent. It's obviously to create stronger relations between these characters.

Yes, I know Kishimoto can sometimes make people randomly meet each other for a specific purpose. But how do you explain these seemingly random and coincidental encounters within the context of the plot? That's my point. I think Kishimoto would have us believe that destiny (or fate) is what guides these chance encounters into happening.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We could say that the only reason no other genin from konoha is a sage is because Jiraiya didn't tell them where is the place and the frogs would not train them What if Neji tried to train there and succeeded, life is really not fair with other genins, they get no kyuubi, no sage training, no kage level sensei and no strong opponents whose strength increases just to match Naruto's current strength

Well I never meant to imply that the course of life and fate was fair in this series. On the contrary actually. So yeah...I agree.

[Dengar]

If they really did grace the best pupils with the beast teachers, then why was Naruto in Kakashi's team?

[shalala]

Originally Posted by Dengar

If they really did grace the best pupils with the beast teachers, then why was Naruto in Kakashi's team?

As he had the Kyuubi in him. Thats one way of seeing it. Plus for all we know Kakashi could have asked to be paired up with me. Doubt it though.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

If they really did grace the best pupils with the beast teachers, then why was Naruto in Kakashi's team?

are you questioning kakashi or naruto? neither make any sense to question. naruto was the fourth hokage's son and the kyuubi jinchuuriki. kakashi was the ninja world's famous copy ninja and son to the white fang. if you're going to question anyone on team 7, then it should be sakura. sakura proved to be worthy of having an elite sensei, but she didn't have the same level of potential that sasuke and naruto had, nor did she have the genetic history. she did have a natural talent for chakra control though so the argument can be made for her inclusion in the team. kishi would have been wiser to continue her character's development into genjutsu as well, since that was part of her innate talent too

[Mr. Johnny 5]

I've read pretty much everything till this page so i really dont understand the majority talking about a certain itachi with him guessing things right. (who cares about a correct prophecy?)

The entire elite teacher teaching other elites...
The link between Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura was plain simple.
Kakashi has been taught by Naruto's father. (Naruto)
Kakashi has a Sharingan. (Sasuke)
Kakashi has been a smart ninja. (Sakura)

There is no telling what and how potential is meassured in Naruto. Since the Sannin probably grew in skills and strenght till their deaths. Tsunade remained. Oro returned.
Itachi was on Naruto and Sasukes age alot further. Same could be said of Hashirama and Madara. Although they are clearly alot stronger then any of them.

The difference is that Naruto and Sasuke were raised in a time of peace.
Itachi, Madara and Hashirama have lived in and experienced war.

I am honestly not even slightly interested in the upcoming fight since we know that Madara and his brother just like Hashirama and his brother will survive this one.
A fact is that both kids Madara and Hashirama will know that their clans are really at war.
Both are clan leaders and that means that they cannot meet again without taking the role of a leader. (Perhaps a challenge for leadership for both will follow)

Just a quick notice on this. For those who have seen the real movie shinobi. Both clanleaders were lovers in this case. A male (Minato speed-like) and a woman (Mangekyou Sharingan-like). Both desired peace but it was not given. Even after getting the leadership.
They too met at a river. Perhaps some inspiration for one of you folks to speculate/guess the next thing for your prophecy's.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

I am honestly not even slightly interested in the upcoming fight since we know that Madara and his brother just like Hashirama and his brother will survive this one.

Thats interesting, I feel the opposite way(not really about the childhood scenes). Despite knowing that they both survive, I'm in anticipation of how Hashirama won, and what exactly happened to Madara after the battle. These two were continuously hyped throughout hundreds of chapters, so to me its satisfying to finally see what they can actually do, similar to when we finally got to read about how MInato managed to save the village from the Kyuubi's attack and the details surrounding that very prominent event which was also referenced quite frequently in the manga. I just think its refreshing to finally read something(espcially something as prominent as the original VoTE battle) you were continuously told about for years... And I must say in regards to the battle, so far Kishimoto sure didn't dissapoint.

[itachi-san314]

yea i have no problem knowing the outcome of certain fights. the minato vs tobi fight is a good example since we knew tobi lived and minato died sealing the kyuubi. it was still awesome. even though we didnt know for sure, it was pretty obvious that itachi would die and sasuke would live in their fight. the cool part, aside from the action, was all the intrigue and plotting that itachi had put into the fight. there's plenty that can be made interesting about a fight in which only the end result is known

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

are you questioning kakashi or naruto? neither make any sense to question. naruto was the fourth hokage's son and the kyuubi jinchuuriki. kakashi was the ninja world's famous copy ninja and son to the white fang. if you're going to question anyone on team 7, then it should be sakura. sakura proved to be worthy of having an elite sensei, but she didn't have the same level of potential that sasuke and naruto had, nor did she have the genetic history. she did have a natural talent for chakra control though so the argument can be made for her inclusion in the team. kishi would have been wiser to continue her character's development into genjutsu as well, since that was part of her innate talent too

Naruto's grades were awful and no one other than Iruka had any faith in him at all. On the other hand, Sakura's grades were decent to great. And the fact that he is a medium is more of a reason to keep an eye on him than anything else. Don't believe for one second that he was assigned to that team because of something silly like "potential".

[Shay]

Any chapter this week or is there a break?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Naruto's grades were awful and no one other than Iruka had any faith in him at all. On the other hand, Sakura's grades were decent to great. And the fact that he is a medium is more of a reason to keep an eye on him than anything else. Don't believe for one second that he was assigned to that team because of something silly like "potential".

it depends on how you want to look at the series. i try to look at it on a whole. you apparently are looking at it based on the first few chapters. if you do that (which you're welcome to do of course) then not much concerning naruto will make any sense, particularly him being a jinchuuriki. when looking at the whole series, there is no doubt that both kakashi and hiruzen knew he was minato and kushina's son and therefore he was brimming with potential despite his immaturity, similar to obito's personality/potential dynamic actually

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Shay

Any chapter this week or is there a break?

No chapter this week. I'll update the title to reflect this.

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it depends on how you want to look at the series. i try to look at it on a whole. you apparently are looking at it based on the first few chapters. if you do that (which you're welcome to do of course) then not much concerning naruto will make any sense, particularly him being a jinchuuriki. when looking at the whole series, there is no doubt that both kakashi and hiruzen knew he was minato and kushina's son and therefore he was brimming with potential despite his immaturity, similar to obito's personality/potential dynamic actually

I think it was because kakashi was most powerful jounin available. He was assigned to protect an asset.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it depends on how you want to look at the series. i try to look at it on a whole. you apparently are looking at it based on the first few chapters. if you do that (which you're welcome to do of course) then not much concerning naruto will make any sense, particularly him being a jinchuuriki. when looking at the whole series, there is no doubt that both kakashi and hiruzen knew he was minato and kushina's son and therefore he was brimming with potential despite his immaturity, similar to obito's personality/potential dynamic actually

I somewhat dispute the idea that Naruto or Obito had observable potential. Nothing either did ever really indicated that they could become so powerful. In fact, their potential at the time was entirely due to the possibility of their bloodlines not anything they themselves did (the Kyuubi in Naruto's case, and the Sharingan in Obito), unlike the other members of their teams. Additionally, in both characters it was not themselves that acquired the initial levels of power, but rather outside influences that showed that they had potential power (Naruto accidentally using the Kyuubi's chakra, and Obito getting a Zetsu body plus the MS from Kakashi).

That being said, Kakashi was a fairly terrible teacher. The fact that his students abandoned him after only a few months speaks to the severity of his inabilities. And the team placement itself was terrible (seemingly Team 7 was the only random team, everyone else was assigned based on similar abilities and overall team compatibility). If Hiruzen and Kakashi planned the team layout, then they needed to be relieved of duty since they were awful coordinators.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it depends on how you want to look at the series. i try to look at it on a whole. you apparently are looking at it based on the first few chapters. if you do that (which you're welcome to do of course) then not much concerning naruto will make any sense, particularly him being a jinchuuriki. when looking at the whole series, there is no doubt that both kakashi and hiruzen knew he was minato and kushina's son and therefore he was brimming with potential despite his immaturity, similar to obito's personality/potential dynamic actually

First, you keep saying 'jinchuuriki' like it's a good thing, when back then, it really wasn't. Also, Naruto at that time hadn't shown any talent for anything at all, other than pranks. There was no reason to assume he had some "amazing potential".
Also, it's not like the Third Hokage was the only one who had a say in things, and Kakashi didn't even know the kid (other than being his sensei's son).

And no, "He is the fourth's son" is not proof of potential. Neither is being a jinchuuriki. In fact, since he wasn't showing any sign of being a decent ninja, everyone had good reason to fear the breaking of his seal at some point. That it later turned out to be okay isn't the issue here. Back then there really was no reason to believe that he was gonna make it big.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Dengar

First, you keep saying 'jinchuuriki' like it's a good thing, when back then, it really wasn't. Also, Naruto at that time hadn't shown any talent for anything at all, other than pranks. There was no reason to assume he had some "amazing potential".

So you mean that the 3rd, Jiraiya, Kakashi and other who knew about what happened had to assume that the 4th hokage gave up his life to seal the kyuubi into a talentless boy who will be useless to konoha?

Originally Posted by Dengar

In fact, since he wasn't showing any sign of being a decent ninja,

Graduated by learning the kage bunshin in one night and beating a chuunin by himself. If a teacher can't see talent there then he should just quit.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, Kakashi was a fairly terrible teacher. The fact that his students abandoned him after only a few months speaks to the severity of his inabilities.

This is a curious statement. Why exactly do you think Kakashi is a bad teacher? His students leaving had little to do with him or his teaching abilites. Sasuke left because of the cursed seal, jealousy and the fact that Orochimaru is just plain stronger than Kakashi. Naruto left Kakashi because of Akatsuki, mainly and because Jiraiya is just that good. Sakura left because Tsunade could teach her stuff Kakashi couldn't. None of that reflects badly on Kakashi.

And the team placement itself was terrible (seemingly Team 7 was the only random team, everyone else was assigned based on similar abilities and overall team compatibility). If Hiruzen and Kakashi planned the team layout, then they needed to be relieved of duty since they were awful coordinators.

You've contradicted yourself here. If everyone else was practically a ready made team, obviously what was left would be random in comparison.

[Frenchie]

I don't see how Lee-Neji-Tenten were a ready made team actually.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

First, you keep saying 'jinchuuriki' like it's a good thing

did i? no i didnt. it's also irrelevant to this discussion but whatever. it is however a key element to the village's safety and needs to be protected, which was not the case in the chapters you're basing your argument on which is why i'm saying it's best to look at the series as a whole.

Also, Naruto at that time hadn't shown any talent for anything at all, other than pranks. There was no reason to assume he had some "amazing potential". Also, it's not like the Third Hokage was the only one who had a say in things, and Kakashi didn't even know the kid (other than being his sensei's son).
And no, "He is the fourth's son" is not proof of potential. Neither is being a jinchuuriki.

Ero-Senn1n said it all pretty much. Naruto showed a ton of talent. he defeated a chuunin-level opponent on iruka's level before he was assigned to kakashi's team. And it would be absolutely braindead of hiruzen, jiraiya, kakashi, etc... to not put 2 and 2 together that minato sealed the kyuubi inside his son who he saw potential in. they knew kushina was about to give birth and then BAM a new born sealed with the 4th's powers... hmm... must have just been some random blond baby minato found and entrusted the village's safety with...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

So you mean that the 3rd, Jiraiya, Kakashi and other who knew about what happened had to assume that the 4th hokage gave up his life to seal the kyuubi into a talentless boy who will be useless to konoha?

No, Minato et al sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto in hopes that he could one day be useful. They didn't know, and later on none of the aforementioned had any reason to assume (beyond hope) that he could live up to their expectations. Naruto, like any other 10-12 year old, was filled with potential, but any way of gauging his potential previous to his stunt with Kage Bushin would have shown Naruto to be a complete failure.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Graduated by learning the kage bunshin in one night and beating a chuunin by himself. If a teacher can't see talent there then he should just quit.

First signs that there was hope, but whether or not he had Kage Bushin he would have still ended up on a team with Kakashi and Sasuke (and Sakura) due to the lackadaisical nature of team assignments (putting the best with the worst for no real reason).

Originally Posted by Endscape

This is a curious statement. Why exactly do you think Kakashi is a bad teacher? His students leaving had little to do with him or his teaching abilites. Sasuke left because of the cursed seal, jealousy and the fact that Orochimaru is just plain stronger than Kakashi. Naruto left Kakashi because of Akatsuki, mainly and because Jiraiya is just that good. Sakura left because Tsunade could teach her stuff Kakashi couldn't. None of that reflects badly on Kakashi.

Beyond the fact that Kakashi taught them one solid piece of shinobidom (basics of proper chakra control), he never was shown to teach them anything else of real value, especially not how to work as a team (beyond the rudimentary and assbackwards 'lesson of the week' he tried to give them during their first team assignment). Compared to Team 9 and 10, Team 7 had no structure, little teamwork and no real drive (Minato's Team 7 also had this problem).

Kakashi was a failure as a teacher (at least for a team). He was experienced and very intelligent but he had no knowledge on how to actually impart knowledge (for a team).

Originally Posted by Endscape

You've contradicted yourself here. If everyone else was practically a ready made team, obviously what was left would be random in comparison.

No, that is a problem on Kishimoto's end. Beyond the slapdash excuse of placing the best with the worst (which makes little to no sense), there was no reason why Team 7 existed. They served no purpose in a military structure and what's worse they didn't even make sense as a cohesive unit (at least if they were all friends or known rivals there might be something worth seeing in their potential teamwork, otherwise they were just three random individual shoved together with no purpose and no real direction (which is a waste of talent and potential)). And in the end they weren't even properly trained on how to work together.

The Team placement was arbitrary, senseless and clearly plot contrived to create drama. Any competent military force would have never created the team even if they were the left-overs...