[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

without having to insert a deus ex machina, where Battler survives

Well, the possibility of Battler surviving is there. I guess it's been there since EP1, and EP7's Tea Party made it even more obvious, when Battler suddenly disappeared.

[ArcticHelm]

I agree that it's also very possible for Battler to still be alive and it isn't like we haven't been given hints to this effect. I think it's also possible that the Battler on the actual Rokkenjima remembered his promise and a "good" outcome was actually obtained.

[Used Can]

I agree, since it's already rather clear there won't be a happy end for everyone, I hope that, at the very least Battler and Beatrice/Yasu/Lyon can get a happy end - that is, of course, as long as Yasu's motivation makes sense by the end. I'm still betting that the real mastermind may be someone else, but who knows? Either way, I'm hoping R07 won't go for one of those sappy endings in which either the hero or the heroine dies and the remaining one has to live while treasuring the memories and crap like that, which has been overdone by this point and is terribly cliché.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Either way, I'm hoping R07 won't go for one of those sappy endings in which either the hero or the heroine dies and the remaining one has to live while treasuring the memories and crap like that, which has been overdone by this point and is terribly cliché.

But at the same time, wouldn't it be as terribly clichéd if through some miraculous coincidence the truth that battler is all alone at the end can come true while Yasutrice still survives?! That would fit those terrible 'Happy Addings' done by Hollywood in it's earlier days when adapting novels for the big screen.
Most terrible example would (in a funny coincidence) be one of the inspirations for Umineko 'And then there were none'.
[spoiler=And then there were none Ending]
While in the book the whole case can only be solved when the bottle letter sent out to sea by the judge is found, because he was able to perfectly convince everyone on the island to be dead and then killed himself, in the first movie adaption, through some terrible deus ex machina, the two survivors suddenly knew that somebody else had to be the killer. So they staged one death and waited for the judge to drink his poison (while in the novel he shot himself) only to then approach him and teach him the moral that wicked righteousness never wins over true love with that remaining the only reason for their survival...all the while robbing the story of all it's cleverness.[/quote]

Of course if someone else is the culprit, then we could make it end in a way that Shkannon only staged his/her death to hide and be with Battler in the end ... though it would beat me why they wouldn't manage to contact Eva AND Ange after even 12 years...

On a side note, I thought about the final red truths of EP6 again and Shkannon has to be true.

Originally Posted by Episode 6

# 初めまして、こんにちは！探偵ッ、古戸ヱリカと申します！！招かれざる客人ですが、どうか歓迎 を！！ (Good day. How do you do? My name is Furudo Erika, detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!!)
# 我こそは来訪者ッ、六軒島の１８人目の人間ッ！！！ (I am the visitor, Rokkenjima's 18th person!!)

* …………申し訳ないが、 (We are very sorry but...)
* そなたを迎えても、 (Even if we included you,)
* １７人だ。 (there'd be 17.)

What I'm aiming at is not only the count of 17 people, but how Erika is able to describe herself. She is a 来訪者 (visitor) and above that a 招かれざる客人 (uninvited guest), this is a description that could hardly be applied to anybody on the island.
The servants are not guests and the guests we've witnessed so far seem to be all invited. That would imply, when we consider Bern saying that so far Erika never appeared in any game, that the sentence at the end really means that they would be 17 including Erika, meaning that they are only 16 now.

I don't know if anybody can find evidence against that (apart from Chiru doesn't count or base11!! )...

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

But at the same time, wouldn't it be as terribly clichéd if through some miraculous coincidence the truth that battler is all alone at the end can come true while Yasutrice still survives?! That would fit those terrible 'Happy Addings' done by Hollywood in it's earlier days when adapting novels for the big screen.

It's hard to say. A cliché is only one as long as it keeps on getting done. A cliché 50 years ago, may no longer be one today. Nowadays, you have the cliché of everyone getting a happy end through some deus-ex that allows them to defy fate, or something like the couple that cannot be together for A or B motive.

I honestly wouldn't mind if they are all indeed dead (except Eva, of course), but the possibility of Battler being alive is there. So, I think I've got to work with what I've got. Therefore, between a sappy end in which either the hero or the heroine can survive, or an ending in which both survive yet they still lost everyone else, but there still the future to build hopes on, I'll honestly lean for the latter. Personally, I find it more fulfilling.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kamar

Isn't it explicitly stated in a TIPS or somewhere that they are replicas of the Mare's Leg from that show?

I haven't found it stated anywhere, or there would be no need to search for that show. Though they definitely are.

[Jan-Poo]

I admit I can't really understand what Beatrice was thinking when she created this game. Sure the part of her unrequited love is clear, I already knew that before EP7, but I just don't get why would she kill everyone for that.
She was desperate, okay, no doubt about that. But that alone just doesn't cut it. You are no different from Bern and her "they did it for money" if you can be satisfied just with that.
Also I don't believe she's another madgirl who thinks something can become true just because a few brainless conspiracy theorists believe it's true. And in the first place her real wish has never been to create a catbox but to see someone solve it.

Let's piece the facts together. There are a few elements that in EP7 were confirmed to have determined this tragedy:

1) Beatrice solving the riddle was considered a pivotal event for everything that came thereafter. Claire strongly implies it, Will accepted it as something that was natural and he seems to deeply understand why.

2) By solving the riddle Beatrice learned many facts about herself, those are probably related to the tragedy that later emerged. The things she learned who might have caused her mind to snap are:
-She's Kinzo's daughter (possible incest related problems with her love relationships)
-She was rejected and almost killed by Natsuhi (or so everyone believes)
-She was rescued by Nanjo and Genji and she would have preferred to die instead
-She was made to live as a servant and forced to work at a tender age while she was meant to be the next heir of one of the wealthiest families of Japan.

3) Other stuff she knew already before becoming Beatrice:
-She has a very bad injury that in her eyes doesn't make her qualified to be in a love relationship. This is what makes here think she's not human she's furniture.
-Battler careless words that led her to believe they were a promise of love. The worst thing is not that Battler forgot a promise, but that he never thought it was a promise to begin with.

4) Regardless of all of these events, the tragedy wouldn't have happened if Battler didn't come back. So no matter how much desperate she was, she wasn't desperate enough to kill everyone just because of that. Only after she learned that Battler was coming back to Rokkenjima, the gears of fate were put into motion.

5) What Beatrice did was definitely pre planned weeks before the family conference. Someone must have gone in person to that bank to put all those banknotes inside the various vaults.

6) Beatrice wished for a miracle in Kinzo's style. She wished for Battler to solve the epitaph riddle or the serial murder mystery case. If that happened some kind of miracle would have happened, and Beatrice's desire would have been fulfilled.

7) Beatrice wants Battler to understand her heart. Battler told her in the past that to understand a culprit's motive you must understand the culprit's heart. There is probably a relation between these facts.


Are there other pieces of the puzzle I'm missing? Comments? Suggestions?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Are there other pieces of the puzzle I'm missing? Comments? Suggestions?

You're missing a rather big piece.

Creating the cash boxes and the deposit card with a pin code requires transporting a large quantity of gold off the island, (1.2-2 metric tons and probably more) which physically cannot be done both quickly and secretly. Converting it into cash or account money cannot be done both quickly and secretly either. Which means that that the plan for which they were prepared could not initially have assumed Battler's presence -- the plan was in the works for months, rather than weeks, and Battler's return was comparatively abrupt.

I.e. Battler's presence messes up the plan. That's why "if Battler returned a year earlier or a year later, it would be different." -- the plan would proceed without his involvement, and presumably, proceed with no loss of life.

Therefore point 6 is partially wrong -- Beatrice wishes for a Kinzo-style miracle because Battler has returned and it can now possibly happen, (Battler can remember his promise with no prodding) but that miracle is not part of the plan for which cash and account were created. The plan exists for some other reason.

[Jan-Poo]

I'm not sure your assumption is correct.
A huge amount of cash exists, but just because Bern said it's cash that was converted from gold doesn't mean it's true.
Beatrice is the new family head, she inherited everything that Kinzo possessed. The possibility that Kinzo had some secret accounts not known by Krauss isn't so hard to imagine and it wouldn't be strange at all considering the character. Beatrice could have simply used that.

The scenario you imagined it is something that I also considered, until realized there's point 6, which is not something I made up but something that Beatrice said herself.
Unless we doubt Beatrice's word (at which point why should we take fro granted anything else?) then point 6 is true, and the idea that Battler messed up the original plan doesn't work because Battler must be the reason of the plan.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The scenario you imagined it is something that I also considered, until realized there's point 6, which is not something I made up but something that Beatrice said herself.
Unless we doubt Beatrice's word (at which point why should we take fro granted anything else?) then point 6 is true, and the idea that Battler messed up the original plan doesn't work because Battler must be the reason of the plan.

Care to find a specific quote for it? Because I don't remember Beatrice herself expressing a desire for Battler to solve the epitaph -- or, for that matter, to solve the serial murder case. The desire she expresses in the first four episodes is for Battler to submit to her and accept her as the witch, but even if we assume that she actually wants the opposite, that opposite is not necessarily solving the murders - it's killing her. That is not necessarily the same.

Maria says that Beatrice wanted everyone to solve the epitaph and nothing else, but does not actually say this desire is in any way focused on Battler, and Maria is not Beatrice anyway. In Ep5, Virgilia's says that the murders and the epitaph solution are equally meaningless for Beatrice -- because the solution of the epitaph is meaningless. She uses red to support these statements, too.

So, when does Beatrice express a desire for Battler to do anything other than remember his sin or accept her as the witch?

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...SOLVABLE.

Same episode don't know how you could have missed IT.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Care to find a specific quote for it? Because I don't remember Beatrice herself expressing a desire for Battler to solve the epitaph -- or, for that matter, to solve the serial murder case. The desire she expresses in the first four episodes is for Battler to submit to her and accept her as the witch, but even if we assume that she actually wants the opposite, that opposite is not necessarily solving the murders - it's killing her. That is not necessarily the same.

While it is not necessarily that her wish is to be killed by Battler, solving the case is the key to 'getting rid of Beatrice'.
And the quote you ask for would be those:

Originally Posted by Episode 5 ????

# ベアトは、あなたに解いて欲しいと願って、解けるようにこのゲームを、……この物語の謎を生み 出しました。 (Beato created the mysteries of this story...wishing for it to be solved by you and she made it so that it is solvable.)
# ベアトは、俺に解いて欲しいと願って、解けるようにこのゲームの謎を生み出した (Beato created the mysteries of this game, wishing for me to solve them and in a way that I can solve them)

But I agree with you that there is never anything implied that she wants anybody to solve the epitaph. On the contrary, 碑文の謎が解けても解けなくても、この子にとって得るものは何もありません。 (No matter if the epitaph is solved or not solved, this child gains nothing from it) (Episode 5, Virgilia)

EDIT: Damn, a little too late, but well...two now it's two times as proven

[Oliver]

And how does this necessarily imply that any murders were actually part of the plan?

Beatrice creates most of the mysteries by introducing red, declaring that method X or Y is not available to the murderer. Without this red, almost all of the mysteries are not terribly mysterious and can be accomplished in a great number of ways by a great number of characters. See Ep2 and the introduction of red text for an example how Rosa does not consider the mystery seriously - because she does not know the red.

That Beatrice can do this does not mean anything beyond that Meta-Beatrice, already a meta-character, knows what's going on. So?

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Oliver

And how does this necessarily imply that any murders were actually part of the plan?

Beatrice creates most of the mysteries by introducing red, declaring that method X or Y is not available to the murderer. Without this red, almost all of the mysteries are not terribly mysterious and can be accomplished in a great number of ways by a great number of characters. See Ep2 and the introduction of red text for an example how Rosa does not consider the mystery seriously - because she does not know the red.

That Beatrice can do this does not mean anything beyond that Meta-Beatrice, already a meta-character, knows what's going on. So?

What you just said and the original problem are two pair of shoes.

The mystery is created by Beatrice, be that Meta-Beatrice as a substitute for the mind of the one pulling the strings or Board-Beatrice as the person who is pulling the strings. We have to assume that the person orchestrating everything that we and Battler witness is both Beatrice on a Meta and Direct Level.
Wether anything at all ever happened as planned in (for example) the bottle letters is not part of the question here, but the basic setup of what happened during those 2 days was meant for Battler to solve and learn something through that.

That does not in any way mean that the murders were part of the plan, but that was never part of the original implication anyway.
Battler was meant to solve the murder-mystery (which would be understandable if he was perceived as a mystery maniac by Yasu) but that does not mean that the murders happened as part of the plan of that mystery game.

And of course it is less mysterious if there is no red, because you are free to choose 'your reasoning'. It only hits you that you might have been wrong when the solution comes along.

BTW: Murder in general had to be part of the plan as soon as Battler's involvement was clear, unless you want to imply that the statement that at least the first bottle letter must have been sent to sea before the typhoon started was untrue.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

What I'm aiming at is not only the count of 17 people, but how Erika is able to describe herself. She is a 来訪者 (visitor) and above that a 招かれざる客人 (uninvited guest), this is a description that could hardly be applied to anybody on the island.
The servants are not guests and the guests we've witnessed so far seem to be all invited. That would imply, when we consider Bern saying that so far Erika never appeared in any game, that the sentence at the end really means that they would be 17 including Erika, meaning that they are only 16 now.

Actually, Erika is the 18th person on Rokkenjima, meaning there must be a minimum of 17 people to begin with.

In other words:

Regardless of whether or not we add Erika (the 18th), there still will be 17 people.

[Erisette]

The problem with using Shkanon for solving the final reds in EP6 is the I am the 18th person!. If Shkanon is truth and there are only 16 people in the island, Erika would be the 17th, not the 18th person in the island.

And this reminds of the whole deal with Gertrude saying that Kanon does not exist in the guest room killed Erika, and Dlanor appearing for a second saying "This is too much!" at the end of the duel.

Unrelated to that, but when re-reading EP 6 I noticed that the thing that Dlanor uses to attack Beatrice is "A red truth denying you from Bernkastel". What would that red truth be?

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

Actually, Erika is the 18th person on Rokkenjima, meaning there must be a minimum of 17 people to begin with.

In other words:

Regardless of whether or not we add Erika (the 18th), there still will be 17 people.

But that would imply that the whole final statement is irrelevant and Erika does not exist. Could a non-existant person say about herself that she wants to be included into the count of people?
Yes of course, the whole thing could be another sledgehammer way of forcing Shkannon into our minds, but nothing else.

I see that the sentence remains tricky, depending on how one reads the　「そなたを迎えても、」. I went over to thinking that Erika actually counts in that equation, meaning that if they include her they would be 17, but yes, it could still also be read as 'there would still be 17'.
Okay, looking at it from that point of view Erika is able to say in red that she is the 18th person. Now it would be important to know what different conotations were meant between 18人目の人間 and 17人. Is Ryukishi defining 人間 in the same sense as 人格?! Or is 人間 and 人 the same in this case?

I'm really beginning to wonder wether that sentence is clearer for a native speaker.
But well, maybe it really is that easy and it's just another clue showing that as many fictional characters can be added to the story as they want it doesn't change the result.

Originally Posted by Erisette

And this reminds of the whole deal with Gertrude saying that Kanon does not exist in the guest room killed Erika, and Dlanor appearing for a second saying "This is too much!" at the end of the duel.

Wasn't part of Erika's vow when taking over the role as Battler's opponent in that game, that she would solve every mystery on Rokkenjima?!
So when she stumbled over that truth and it became apparent that it is impossible for her to solve, she lost. I myself am still not sure how that whole trick was possible in the end ... I can follow Battler until the moment where Kanon is in the closet, but when he vanishes it becomes really hard to explain.
Okay, there's always the easy way: 嘉音は客室に存在しない (Kanon does not exist in the guestroom) does not mean 客室にはエリカ以外に誰も存在しない (Apart from Erika nobody existed in the guestroom). Maybe she was really just tricked by that little fact.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Could a non-existant person say about herself that she wants to be included into the count of people?

You have just inadvertently stepped on the very essence of a Mary Sue. That's exactly what a Mary Sue is and exactly what one wants.

But speaking of Erika in a more specific sense...

Can anyone remember any case of Erika's seals being found broken, rather than whole, except the one on the window in Ep6?

Can anything useful change if the seals were broken not because someone left the room, but because someone else entered?

[Jan-Poo]

I don't think there was any confirmed case of a seal being broken, including the one you mention which is merely postulated.

However the seals on Kumasawa's and Gohda's rooms in EP5 when Erika checks them after Battler screams should have been found broken logically speaking since those two servants were in the Mansion at that time and Erika never left her room the whole night.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

What I'm aiming at is not only the count of 17 people, but how Erika is able to describe herself. She is a 来訪者 (visitor) and above that a 招かれざる客人 (uninvited guest), this is a description that could hardly be applied to anybody on the island.
The servants are not guests and the guests we've witnessed so far seem to be all invited. That would imply, when we consider Bern saying that so far Erika never appeared in any game, that the sentence at the end really means that they would be 17 including Erika, meaning that they are only 16 now.

I don't know if anybody can find evidence against that (apart from Chiru doesn't count or base11!! )...

Titular-descriptive red. No real evidence against it, and if personality-death is permissible so is that.

Also, Battler and BATTLER are different people. However, it would be a damn dirty trick if Battler and BATTLER were treated as such; in other words, BATTLER is the detective and Battler is not. By such logic, Battler's behavior does not change from ep4 to ep5. Except perhaps in ep1, Battler has always been able to falsify or manipulate his own perspective, but BATTLER has not. After ep1, Battler splits into Battler-the-Watson and BATTLER-the-detective. This is not contradicted by Dlanor's statement and is, in fact, supported by it (inasmuch as she was talking to BATTLER).

Prove it? Okay. Meta-Beatrice isn't on-board "Beatrice." Meta-Shannon and Kanon can appear at the same time. Meta-Kinzo generally. Maria/MARIA. There is far more evidence that BATTLER is a different character and thus entity than there is that everything which applies to him applies to Battler too.

In a way, only BATTLER can possibly be the detective. If the game is only solvable after ep4, only BATTLER possesses the same clues as the reader. A literal interpretation of Dine's rules would not only mean the detective cannot have more information than the reader, but that the reverse ought to apply; consequently, BATTLER must have the same information after ep1-4, but Battler can't because his memory isn't persistent across games.

This also flawlessly explains reality breaking down for Battler toward the end of the first few episodes, the apparent disconnect between Battler and BATTLER in the ep4 Tea Party, the ep5 parlor (Erika and Meta-Erika could be spoken of in the same fashion). Bluntly, Battler can do whatever the hell he wants; BATTLER can be misled by himself, if his piece self has valid reason to do so, just as much as we can.

EDIT: On the seals - the one and only time we see a seal being broken, as I recall, is on Genji's door in the morning, and that seal was Eva's. The seal breaks normally, but since Erika is not present at the time, there is absolutely no way she would know whether Genji was found dead inside the room or if he simply left and someone lied to her about it.