Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Tak]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

To be perfectly honest with you.If given a choice between Luna and Cagalli watching my back in a firefight I'd much rather have Luna.

I really do not recall the last time Luna went up against a named ace and held long enough to make things matter.

Cagali on the other hand, went against the druggies on a relatively inferior machine, and actually stood her ground, just as she did against Shinn. No, she is not better than any of them, but in terms of durability, I rank her above Luna. She also did not use SEED mode in both of those battles, for some reason. Even though she could, and did.

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

You do realize the only reason Cagalli "held off" Shin is because of the Akatsuki's anti-beam armor right?

And Shinn only bested Cagali because the Destiny is better equipped for melee, right?

Circular arguments sounds funny, no?

- Tak

[Tak]

I think there is a big gap between holding one's ground to defeating one's enemy.

We are mainly discussing Cag's capacity to perform the former.

- Tak

[I Fail at Life]

Originally Posted by Tak

I think there is a big gap between holding one's ground to defeating one's enemy.

We are mainly discussing Cag's capacity to perform the former.

- Tak

Ok. Never mind then.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

You do realize the only reason Cagalli "held off" Shin is because of the Akatsuki's anti-beam armor right?

And while she may have been a trained pilot she had a tendency of being shot down rather easily by other pilots. The only time she wasn't shot down was the last battle of Seed. Even then she needed Yzak to save her arse from being taken out by one of the druggies. And that's after activating her Seed factor, something she never displayed during Destiny.

To be perfectly honest with you.If given a choice between Luna and Cagalli watching my back in a firefight I'd much rather have Luna.

I'd rather have Cagalli, as long as she's not distracted with running/saving her nation :P (lets assume a neutral fight in which nothing else is involved)

The Akatsuki also makes for great support/partner unit, especially if you are in a more melee orientated suit

[Destined_Fate]

Lunamaria is the better pilot compared to Cagalli, especially Destiny Cagalli whose skills clearly waned quite a bit during the time skip which makes sense. She isn't a soldier anymore and is the leader of a Country. While Shinn and Lunamaria on the other hand are highly skilled pilots and their skills are still fresh due to many battles and constant training off the field. I'm surprised she managed to find the time to do her job, stay fit, and still remember how to use a mobile suit somewhat.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Shinn only shot twice, and the rest of the fight was melee battle, which Shinn is best at, and Cagalli held him off long enough for kira to get there.

besides the druggies were taking on Kira and Athrun. Also why couldn't Cagalli still use SEED mode?

Luna is also useless in Destiny remember?

You realize without the anti-beam armor Shinn would have only needed one shot to kill Cagalli much less a second shot or melee. So again, the anti-beam armor saved her life on TWO separate occasions. Three if you consider it forced him to go melee in the first place.

Yet Yzak managed to kill two of them rather easily if memory serves. As for her Seed mode, who knows ask Fukuda.

Yeah because she was using the gunner wizard. Which was clearly stated to be her weakness. Once she got the Impulse she did much better.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

You realize without the anti-beam armor Shinn would have only needed one shot to kill Cagalli much less a second shot or melee. So again, the anti-beam armor saved her life on TWO separate occasions. Three if you consider it forced him to go melee in the first place.

Then Cagalli would have dodged the shots. You see her dodging shots in the beginning of the episode and its not like Shinn's shot came out of nowhere, she clearly saw Shinn, heck she even engaged him in combat. Cagalli even shot first. The whole point of being hit was to show the Beam Reflection, and for Cagalli to get a cheap shot on Shinn, hoping to get in a lucky hit on him. If Shinn didn't block the first shot he would be been shot down. With Melee, Cagalli still charged forward to Shinn knowing she wasn't skilled enough to beat him and in a suit not specialized in melee combat and still held him off long enough till Kira got there.

Yet Yzak managed to kill two of them rather easily if memory serves. As for her Seed mode, who knows ask Fukuda.

yeah Yzak killed 2 however both times he had a lot of help. first was the forbidden next was the raider and if Dearka wasn't there he would have died both times.

Yeah because she was using the gunner wizard. Which was clearly stated to be her weakness. Once she got the Impulse she did much better.

well anyone would get better if they had a better machine.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Yeah because she was using the gunner wizard. Which was clearly stated to be her weakness. Once she got the Impulse she did much better.

She actually did better in the Gunner. In the gunner she fought Stella to stand still and even damaged her. In Impulse, she....blew up some grunts, failed to hit Djbril, was owned by the Dom's, and was demolished by Athrun in short order.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Yeah I knew it was one of the versions of Blue Frame. I just couldn't remember which one.

And perhaps I'm being dense/dumb, but how is PS armor bulky exactly? It's not physical armor like a shield but a energy intensive device. Even than no PS equipped unit seemed overly burdened by having said device other than the power required to activate/maintain it.

@Skye629 I get the benefits each has and all. I'm just not sure I get why it's not two rail cannons or two beam cannons. As I'd think having two of one would be preferable to having one of each. Especially considering Cagalli is the Rouge's pilot and not Mu or Kira.

PS works like crash net of metal and other materials. It does work like crash system in a very crude sense, though I consider too complex to work just as crash system without provbiding other benefits that aren't seen when it comes to mechanics. It absorbs that damage, but when it exceeds it the armor does loses it ability to be resistant to it. Furthermore, energy would be wasted when it isn't be shot at. On a battlefield, you shouldn't turn of the power on and off to when you aren't being shot to extend the energy of the battery. It is bulky for you have to re-enforce every PS layer. It isn't like other armor where you don't have to provide that additional protection, even if its is suicidal on the battlefield. It is a network that makes PS shot effective, but one affect the energy it loses it effectiveness. In addition, PS are handle sort of like slabs of concrete, it's hard to form armor with beyond the basic first layer. It becomes layer shingles to have the armor overlap to become its strongest point where it take damage.

As for non-PS MS's, there are advantages to it as from the 105 daggers that deflects beam in a limited sense, but still can get damage from high power beams from cannon,sabers, and swords. The problem non-PS MS's is checking the energy levels of the battery, they can't spam shots every like nuclear suits. They also don't have the capacity to load up on even more batteries and eject them whenever they run out. It's a give or take. Either way, you gain resistant to beam only get damage from physical ammunition. Or you hope PS can help with its partial usage against physical ammunition.

[S.Freedom]

@Cherudim Arche Again perhaps I'm being dense. But PS armor is NOT physical armor. It's an energy intensive device that reinforces a suits physical structure in some way. The way in which said energy reinforces the armor is unknown atm. So I'm not sure where your going.

@Aquaman OS/The American Average In my view Luna's performance after episode 30 can be attributed to chickification. Just like Cagalli's performance in Destiny can attributed to it.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

In my view Luna's performance after episode 30 can be attributed to chickification. Just like Cagalli's performance in Destiny can attributed to it.

I think we can all agree on that. the girls of the CE really get the "chickification" really bad. more so than any other gundam series.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

@Cherudim Arche Again perhaps I'm being dense. But PS armor is NOT physical armor. It's an energy intensive device that reinforces a suits physical structure in some way. The way in which said energy reinforces the armor is unknown atm. So I'm not sure where your going.

@Aquaman OS/The American Average In my view Luna's performance after episode 30 can be attributed to chickification. Just like Cagalli's performance in Destiny can attributed to it.

There is a reason why suits CE mobile suits are powered by batteries. They are cheaper, easier to get and not much of a hassle to get it. Also nations and Blocs aren't going to hound you get them.

It's still a physical armor, the only difference is the catalyst to keep it re-enforced. It is meant to withstand attacks. That is the entire point of armors. The difference is the trade-off of defense and speed that mobile suit can utilize in combat.It still just as physical as other armor in CE. PS is the only armor that requires the layers to link to be effective through electrical and other means from its huge costs. I don't think the engineer and scientist are dumb to the point to not to make it physically resistant on some way. Seeing that they been in enough wars to see you fruitless ginns are in combat with physical ammunition on either side prior to the first war. It doesn't matter how good the the internal working of the suit has, if its armor is going to weaker than a un-modified ginn that isn't role specific. Phase Shift has to be resistant handle alloys from armor Schneider and other weapon. It just has to built in while creating the phase shift itself. It is literally program to respond to that condition. It probably a combo of nano-tech and wiring to re-enforce the armor. In a way, it is treated like your skin, bone, and tissue. Phase Shift is the top layers of skin. While nerves and other muscles are use like the tendon that are use to support that strength the Phase Shift, while being cover by phase shift on key parts. Yes, Phase Shift in a sense is a micromanaging on its own by the program much like master code or key. In that sense, the master code that control the very basic nature of the phase shift when it comes to defending from attacks from explosives, physical attacks, beam blasts.

How else would the Strike, Impulse and other units be able withstand physical round so easily unless the pilot deliberately stabs around the cockpit? Strike was able to withstand the bucue missiles and railgun assault on earth.

It's treated the same way as memory"metals" or "alloys". Just that there is not bound back to a deformed state, it just revert to it "original state" design by EA and ORB.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by The American Average

I think we can all agree on that. the girls of the CE really get the "chickification" really bad. more so than any other gundam series.

AGE was worse.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by The American Average

I think we can all agree on that. the girls of the CE really get the "chickification" really bad. more so than any other gundam series.

Tell me about it. Luna had some potential but it was wasted when she was made the chick of the Minerva's pilot trio. And I never got why she was given the Gunner wizard instead of the Blaze or Slash wizards. And don't get me started on how non-existent Shiho or even Rikka where.

[Skye629]

I would totally support a SEED movie (despite my misgivings for the series as a whole) if it focused on the girls (excluding Lacus, she's boring)

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Tell me about it. Luna had some potential but it was wasted when she was made the chick of the Minerva's pilot trio. And I never got why she was given the Gunner wizard instead of the Blaze or Slash wizards. And don't get me started on how non-existent Shiho or even Rikka where.

I think is Luna assigned the Gunner wizard pack from the data and info from the military academy as well as when she took part to be one of the Minerva pilot. They must have a specific role of gunner or sniper that has to be there as a requirement.
The other reason would involve promotion, Luna would have to prove even more than Zey when it comes to use of other packs. If Durandal promoted her status from the very beginning with additional training, she probably can have the opportunity to use other packs without worrying about other conditions. Another reason Minerva may not have given to Blaze or Slash packs to Luna is from lack or additional supplies has been used from from their first base. So, they literally can't give it to her for its has to be use to maintain Rey's zaku warrior when it comes to sortie.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by The American Average

I think we can all agree on that. the girls of the CE really get the "chickification" really bad. more so than any other gundam series.

Though most of them retained their independence. Actually, SEED/DESTINY provided the audience with some of the most fiercely independent females in a Gundam franchise, unlike some of its predecessors and definitely its successors.

00 wasn't that great. The only female I ended up liking was token white-haired-pretty-girl, and AGE didn't even bother with subtlety, it just dropped it hard.

- Tak

[S.Freedom]

@Cherudim Arche But she was really no good with the Gunner wizard. Not to mention the darn thing was meant as an anti-ship weapon not an anti-ms weapon. So it was ill suited for the situation that the Minerva found it's self in. The Blaze or Slash wizards would have been far better suited for that.

And I find it hard to believe the Minerva with at one time 3 FAITH members couldn't get they're hands on replacement parts or wizard packs. Much less additional pilots when you think about it. Which is even more unfathomable considering the Minerva was Durandals pet project by all accounts.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Tak

Though most of them retained their independence. Actually, SEED/DESTINY provided the audience with some of the most fiercely independent females in a Gundam franchise, unlike some of its predecessors and definitely its successors.

00 wasn't that great. The only female I ended up liking was token white-haired-pretty-girl, and AGE didn't even bother with subtlety, it just dropped it hard.

- Tak

well i'm going to have to disagree with the whole independent women part of the Seed/Destiny of the female cast. Luna was cool in the beginning but half way through she turned into a useless girl that needs saving from Shinn. lets not get me started on Meyrin. Stella was a girl infatuated with Neo (iirc there was no explanation for this) that couldn't do much without Neo telling her what to do. Merrue was the Captain of the AA and she pretty much didn't do much and she was still heartbroken bout Mwu so she isn't what i'd call independent. Then we have Lacus she was i guess independent but she still needed Kira to do anything in the story its not like she could have done it by herself. So the only women I can come up with that are "independent" is Cagalli and Talia Gladys cause they really didn't lean on someone the larger part of the show. well Cagalli cried a lot but she was a trooper about it and kept going forward. I guess i'll be generous and say Lacus was kinda independent.

now with 00 thought they had some of the better and worst female characters in gundam. always liked Sumeragi, Shirin Bakhtiar, and Kati Mannequin i thought they were pretty cool, now Sumeragi wasn't independent though. Age I didn't get that far so i can't say anything on the women.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

@Cherudim Arche But she was really no good with the Gunner wizard. Not to mention the darn thing was meant as an anti-ship weapon not an anti-ms weapon. So it was ill suited for the situation that the Minerva found it's self in. The Blaze or Slash wizards would have been far better suited for that.

And I find it hard to believe the Minerva with at one time 3 FAITH members couldn't get they're hands on replacement parts or wizard packs. Much less additional pilots when you think about it. Which is even more unfathomable considering the Minerva was Durandals pet project by all accounts.

Gunner wizard is meant for long range support. The problem with the other wizard packs is that they are only useful for a few missions. Other than that, it is suicidal to send them in. Which is why I can understand why Talia has Luna on ship defense. I think your forgetting that those wizard packs are do not have the ability for sustain flight. Unless you want to them to send Luna on the Silhouette flyer and hope it doesn't cause even more problems on the battlefield.

Minerva got the replacement parts without any trouble. I think even with the additional zaku warriors, they would still be biding their teeth for Shinn finish up fighting. For Minerva lacks flight support from things like skygraspers that can have a dual role in fighting against enemies. Mobile suits could work, but depending on the MS it becomes more of a problem than actual help to Minerva.