Macross Delta - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

I can't get over the design of the envoy of Epsilon. It feels like an attempt to replace the well-known Prussian or German designs as villains for "Middle East terrorist". Everything about him screams "bad guy", from his seiyuu to his narrowed eyes. I'm not sure how I feel about it; I hope it doesn't trend. I liked my mecha antagonists stylish and snappy dressed.

Originally Posted by Saint X

Spoiler for About the Var...:

I'm thinking that Messer's control of the var is the supposed final result that anyone who is developing it is looking for- (controllable) supersoilders.

Yes, it is. I doubt that's what the Windermerians had in mind either when employing it. Dun dun dun.

[LoweGear]

I thought this'd be a light-hearted episode, just with some world-building and setting up important background plot points.

Instead we get the best dogfight in Delta, and Messer biting the dust. Now I can't say I like Messer as a character, but nonetheless he was understandable and reasonable despite his abrasive personality, so I at least respect him. And then he goes out and dies in a rather brutal manner

Delta though continues on its streak of awesome songs, this time with Kaname's Axia, which not only was great to listen to, but whose lyrics perfectly fit the entire situation. Hell, the very first line of the song was like a massive Messer death flag

With Messer dead though, it's time for Delta Squadron to step up their game against the Knights. Hoping Hayate and Mirage get truly serious and level up their flying. Get those pricks!

The Draken glowing with the resonance though... does that mean they also have Fold Quartz integrated into their machines?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

Putting aside the song, which might be referring to just Messer's feelings, rather than both, I thought it was pretty clear that their 'date' was set up by Makimaki.

It seems sung by Kaname's POV (the singer is saying how the pilot soars the sky fearlessly and isn't going to see their smile again). IIRC, they meant to make the lyrics matching the action and there's literal zero emotional investment when Arad is fighting on the same battle. If she liked him so much, then she would be worried he and the rest of the rookies were getting their ass kicked before Messer appeared. I don't know. It's not dramatic enough if Kaname's feelings are totally platonic. Just like Hayate doesn't scream every Walkure's name when they are in danger, he screams Freyja's name because he's closer to her (not saying that he has romantic feelings for her, he obviously doesn't, but if Kaname was so into Arad, she would have show more open concern about him).

I don't rule out she used to like Arad, but her emotional response to Messer seems a bit beyond platonic. She was crying as she was singing too. With tears dripping down his bracelet-mp3 player.

Originally Posted by Tak

Tears aside, I think this episode is a perfect opportunity for Hayate to grow up. Mirage knows her game, but she really needs to play it better.

Though if not for Hayate letting Boogie live, things might not have turned out this way. I doubt Hayate will ever get chewed for this, but man, do I feel he was partially responsible...

Huh? Bogue contributed absolutely nothing in last fight besides showing Mirage is even worse than he is. He was just up his Team Rocket I'LL KILL YOU WALKURE antics and got his ass kicked. Hayate's conscience is clear. In fact, he was smart, because they could have replaced Bogue with a less Walkure death thirsty competent pilot and Mirage would be dead. Hayate's inadvertently saved her from getting ingloriously killed.

[DragoonKain3]

I thought this would be a take it easy episode, especially once after Roid shows exactly how GAR he is. Then all of a sudden, Messer dies?

Not that I didn't expect someone die in Macross, but I actually felt happy for Messer (instead of say, the rage I felt in Frontier or the sadness in the original). Hayate said it best, Messer is not one to live a happy life as a flight instuctor, and hell if I wanted Messer to be controlled by the Var to be used against Delta platoon. Messer died fighting like a muthafucking warrior; may his soul find glory in the halls of Valhalla.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Thess

It seems sung by Kaname's POV (the singer is saying how the pilot soars the sky fearlessly and isn't going to see their smile again). IIRC, they meant to make the lyrics matching the action and there's literal zero emotional investment when Arad is fighting on the same battle. If she liked him so much, then she would be worried he and the rest of the rookies were getting their ass kicked before Messer appeared. I don't know. It's not dramatic enough if Kaname's feelings are totally platonic. Just like Hayate doesn't scream every Walkure's name when they are in danger, he screams Freyja's name because he's closer to her (not saying that he has romantic feelings for her, he obviously doesn't, but if Kaname was so into Arad, she would have show more open concern about him).

I don't rule out she used to like Arad, but her emotional response to Messer seems a bit beyond platonic. She was crying as she was singing too. With tears dripping down his bracelet-mp3 player.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that her feelings for Messer can't be 'romantic'. But I do find it strange that any time we go beyond 'platonic', everything automatically seems to jump to 'it's gotta be romantic' (as in, the character wanting the relationship with this person to be the one above and beyond every other relationship he or she has. Whilst you don't use the word, the way you've phrased it implies 'feelings of romantic love').

All I'm pointing out is that Messer's final fight can be dramatic and emotionally resonant even if Kaname's feelings for him are not 'romantic' in the 'want to be in an exclusive sexual relationship with you' sense that everyone in the West seems to associate with the word.

To paraphrase Joss Whedon, a relationship between a man and a woman who don't (necessarily) want to sleep together but who are willing to die for each other is incredibly romantic. It also implies that people can have more than one romantic relationship (the male character in the 'romantic relationship' Whedon was talking about was happily married to someone else).

So I can see an incredibly strong bond between Messer and Kaname here; in fact, I'd say it's far more meaningful because it's not primarily about 'romantic love'. And if Reina has read her feelings correctly, I also contend that Kaname doesn't have to have stopped liking Arad (romantically) in order to have such a bond with Messer.

This might be the kind of thing that Kawamori is talking about when he says he wants less focus to be paid to (love) triangles. The triangular relationships in Delta are about far more than just the notion of 'romantic love'. And the same applies to at least one other Macross series, if not more.

[DragoonKain3]

Speaking of 'platonic', I'm actually quite sad at Mirage's reactions to the 'love' bits of this episode. Her blushing to her ears and being uncomfortable with the topic of love confessions is cute and all, but as someone who loves the HayaMirage ship BECAUSE Mirage doesn't act like your typical japanese anime schoolgirl with a crush, this latest episode just makes her an inferior Freyja. :'(

Oh well, at least Arad/Kaname seems to be in the platonic direction, so I can take solace in that particular pairing (though unlikely it is). Still, I mourn for what may have been for the main triangle; while the platonic direction makes Mirage even more 'boring' of a character, at least it made her stand out. But that may just be my preferences talking...

[Dash_Hunter]

I want to rate this episode 1 point on the thread's poll, not because it was a bad episode but because it describes what this episode was for me

Thanks to Makina and Reina we know that Kaname really likes Arad, so this was actually a second love triangle, although we don't know Arad's thoughts on the matter, right now I don't how I'd feel if they end up together, on one hand, poor Kaname but on the other hand Messer... Anyway the aftermath of this battle will no doubt affect Kaname.

Talking about the aftermath of this battle, what do you think would happen? with Messer gone, right now Delta is outnumbered and outmatched, Windermere is about to take control of Al-shahal leaving just Ragna to resist, so practically all the planets of the cluster will be theirs, one would think that this would be enough for the NUNS to finally intervene.

It would be great timing too, imagine a NUNS fleet coming out of fold with reinforcements (preferably with better valks than VF-171's) to make the knights retreat and saving Delta and Walkure and escalating the war (a man can dream right?).

And my final prediction, Mikumo is actually the jellyfish god that Chuck mentioned, the one that the festival honors, the protoculture created Mikumo/her race to watch over all those worlds, something similar to the Bird Human on earth.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Thanks to Makina and Reina we know that Kaname really likes Arad

Can we take their word for granted? I feel they're not much better than the bridge bunnies, to be honest.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Can we take their word for granted?

Well, they are in Walkure with Kaname. If anybody should know if Kaname has a crush on a certain guy, I'd expect Reina and Makina to.

That being said, I'm not really feeling it that much in Kaname/Arad's scenes together. Their relationship seems pretty professional overall. I definitely didn't get as intense a vibe from Kaname/Arad as I did from Kaname/Messer.

I suppose you could say that Kaname simply enjoys spending time with Arad, and maybe likes his sense of humor and relaxed style. Personality-wise, Kaname is closer to Arad than she is Messer. For many people, similar personality is the main thing they look for in a romantic partner.

Kaname has very deep adoration for Messer, but I suppose it doesn't have to be romantic longing in the strictest sense of the word "romantic". You can deeply admire someone, and feel substantial gratitude towards someone, without having romantic desire for that person. That being said, if Messer had confessed to Kaname, I have a very hard time picturing her rejecting him.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kaname has very deep adoration for Messer, but I suppose it doesn't have to be romantic longing in the strictest sense of the word "romantic". You can deeply admire someone, and feel substantial gratitude towards someone, without having romantic desire for that person. That being said, if Messer had confessed to Kaname, I have a very hard time picturing her rejecting him.

It's also possible she began to nurture other feelings after their mission in the catpeople planet. Messer was avoiding her before that.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That being said, I'm not really feeling it that much in Kaname/Arad's scenes together. Their relationship seems pretty professional overall. I definitely didn't get as intense a vibe from Kaname/Arad as I did from Kaname/Messer.

On the Japanese fan side, apparently this is the love triangle they've been talking about from episode 2, when we first got to see the opening sequence

[Thess]

Originally Posted by karice67

On the Japanese fan side, apparently this is the love triangle they've been talking about from episode 2, when we first got to see the opening sequence

It's unsurprising. The "main" triangle is really boring and lacks any sort of romantic chemistry from any side, IMO.

[larethian]

One thing for Messer to die. Another thing for him to die before Kaname's eyes while she was singing for him. Whether or not there exists any romantic overture, she will be totally destroyed from that. Wonder how she's going to pick herself up after this.

[Father Hentai]

Putting Messers sacrifice aside am I the only one who does not see Var any longer as a disease but more like a receptor for fold waves?

Originally Posted by larethian

One thing for Messer to die. Another thing for him to die before Kaname's eyes while she was singing for him. Whether or not there exists any romantic overture, she will be totally destroyed from that. Wonder how she's going to pick herself up after this.

That was my thoughts for the next episode as well. by all means, one of the shocking death scenes I saw in Macross.

[Dash_Hunter]

Man, I watched the episode again and now I actually payed attention to Axia's lyrics... damn, it got me good, almost teary-eyed. (Messer I'll buy all your merchandise so you can get a chance of surviving in the eventual movie)

Talking about Axia

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but, it seems they recorded AXIA after Kaname's VA finished the voice acting of episode 10.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Talking about Axia

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but, it seems they recorded AXIA after Kaname's VA finished the voice acting of episode 10.

Yes, they had her record the song after the cast had recorded all their dialogue for the episode. Pretty normal for Macross, I think -- I seem to remember someone else talking about doing something similar, though I can't remember who...

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Thess

It's unsurprising. The "main" triangle is really boring and lacks any sort of romantic chemistry from any side, IMO.

I may be in a minority but I'm thoroughly enjoying the main characters' (non-)triangle. Finally no melodrama, just cute friendships that may or may not develop into more. (Also, I do think there's romantic chemistry there, the story just doesn't focus on it.) It's much more to my taste than the over-the-top soap operas we've had in many other Macross shows. I'm kind of worried what will happen when it starts getting more overtly romantic.

[wuhugm]

Messer kicked the bucket

[Random14]

Well, guess that's why they focused so much on Messer for the last few episodes, to make his death matter that much more. And without even a pineapple dish involved too (I think?).

Its too bad, all the recent focus did make him a lot more interesting, with the tragic past and Var and sort of connection to Kaname, not to mention the rivalry with the enemy ace. If Arad had died at this point, I barely would have noticed (he hasn't exactly been all that memorable), but Messer leaves a big hole.

I know a big death can shake up the story (and the series will probably have a big arc after this), just still disappointed they got rid of Messer. Barring some last second Var plot device to save his life or something, but that's doubtful. Most of the other characters aren't important enough to care about if they die (like the Ragnan pilot is better than Kakizaki, but that's not saying much) or too important to kill off (all the idols and the main triangle of course).

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Messer kicked the bucket

Well that's awfully blunt of you