Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Yukinokesshou]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

How's this for a possible solution? Give more hints that the anime timeline that we've watched isn't the first one Tomoya's visited in his quest for light orbs. For laughs, they could hint that those other timelines really are the game routes!

How about Tomoya's repeated feelings of déjà vu throughout the theatre arc in season 1? Well, it's not really a hint of other timelines, but it does imply that Tomoya has already been to the Illusionary World.

[Jimmy C]

What repeated hints? I can only remember his comment about the play being familiar.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Ceral

Makoto and Shiori's arc were my favorites . But I'll see if I can't fish out a better source, it just seems funny to me that everyone is giving Maeda all the credit.

Edit: Well I would say that Mr. Maeda was responsible for the "Main Scenario"... my Japanese is pretty awful so I don't think I'll be able to find anything more precise. Someone else give it a try?

Love Shiori's arc, too - that's definitely not a Maeda.

Here's one source about Hisaya's role in Kanon - there are many others:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Naoki_Hisaya

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I suppose it's safe to say now but would it have been better to learn from the outset that

Spoiler for Stuff:

Tomoya was already dead before the series started, having killed himself due to the depression of Ushio's death, and that Sanae died soon afterwards from grief, and that his spirit was consigned to a magical limbo that sort of seeped into parallel realities of a sentient Town and was able to interact with it in a limited manner?

Spoiler for related to 'stuff':

That's actually what I expected. The death of Ushio, given a linear narrative, clearly destroyed Tomoya. Tomoya couldn't handle coming back and taking control, only to be dealt such a swift and decisive blow. I knew there had to be a miracle, because Tomoya's suicide was obviously coming within a very short time, and that's a terrible ending. After all this hope, to have all of it quashed in one fell swoop.

I knew there was going to be a miracle once Ushio got sick, and when she died it just became more obvious: I couldn't think of an ending without a miracle that would fit the series. I wasn't expecting Nagisa's revival... but I liked the way it worked. Even without the explanation of how the lights worked in the game... I got it. The whole lights being happiness and that they can perform miracles... I thought it was well-explained.

I also thought the Fuuko ending works as a cool-down from the high emotion of the earlier bit (similar to how SaintessHeart liked it). I thought it ran a bit long, though, mostly the "I have a scent" bit.

My favorite part was when Ushio was running through the field in an obvious reference to the OP from S1. I like little tie-ins like that.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

What I'm basically getting from your previous posts, is that you're RAEGing against the "magical-fantastic" True End, conveniently "forgetting" the other instances of magical realism in the entire storyline because it "confused" you. That sounds like a textbook case of a Fallacy of Overwhelming Exception to me. Try ruminating on these episodes of magical instances in the storyline again and see for yourself how it forms the context in which the True End is set, instead of mindlessly RAEGing against it just because it does not fit your preconceived notions of what the story should be. Thank you very much.

....crap, I'm starting to sound like certain people here.

My biggest problem thus far is that while I had accepted the regular CV as "magical", I still had no idea that the IW was really real, so my assumptions were half correct... in a way.

Spoiler for pointless semantics:

And it's not called the "fallacy of overwhelming exception". It's just called "Overwhelming Exception", and is related to the concept of "logical fallacy". Did you not read the link you sent me? EVERYONE has "preconceived notions" as you put it. It just so happened that mine were mistaken. Stop acting like you've never made a wrong assumption before.

And I watched the last episode again. I understood it this time around, and it did a good job of pulling all the hints (I maintain that I had no idea that these hints were supposed to be taken literally) the series had dropped, but I still didn't enjoy it. I think the idea of pulling a parallel world to go back in time and change history is just awful. While I always liked Nagisa, I think she should have stayed dead. Why the heck did I even bother watching episodes 16-21? If I knew this was the ending I would get I would have just skipped straight from episode 15 to episode 22. I probably would have been less confused by conflicting chronology if I had. *slams head on desk*

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity

My biggest problem thus far is that while I had accepted the regular CV as "magical", I still had no idea that the IW was really real, so my assumptions were half correct... in a way.

Interesting. So if you believed all this time that the IW scenes were not "real"....what did you believe KyoAni was doing showing those scenes in the first place, if they're apparently not supposed to have a concrete effect on the story? Did you think they were being shown pointlessly merely for the sake of it, or did you think the IW scenes were supposed to play into the overall narrative in some different way? Let's hear it please, I'm interested in knowing just what it is.

Spoiler for pointless semantics:

And it's not called the "fallacy of overwhelming exception". It's just called "Overwhelming Exception", and is related to the concept of "logical fallacy". Did you not read the link you sent me? EVERYONE has "preconceived notions" as you put it. It just so happened that mine were mistaken. Stop acting like you've never made a wrong assumption before.

Way to pull a Trivial Objection and a Straw Man on me. The first is obvious even to you, while the second is a result of you trying to call me out on my supposed attack on you "preconceived notions", when in fact I was taking more issue with your "mindless RAEGing" in lieu of a more reasoned approach. What were you trying to do, make me look bad somehow? Then you should be more careful at least in going about it, especially if it's me you're trying to tar.

And I watched the last episode again. I understood it this time around, and it did a good job of pulling all the hints (I maintain that I had no idea that these hints were supposed to be taken literally) the series had dropped, but I still didn't enjoy it. I think the idea of pulling a parallel world to go back in time and change history is just awful. While I always liked Nagisa, I think she should have stayed dead. Why the heck did I even bother watching episodes 16-21? If I knew this was the ending I would get I would have just skipped straight from episode 15 to episode 22. I probably would have been less confused by conflicting chronology if I had. *slams head on desk*

Ok, it's pure personal opinion from this point on. I'm cool with that.

[Ithekro]

The "time travel" is only partly correct. The reason why episodes 16-21 are important to 22 is that Tomoya doesn't just go back in time, but skips dimentions to another world, one of the worlds Kotomi was talking about. Without the pain and joy he experianced Tomoya would have repeated his mistake of thinking things would be better had he never met Nagisa. With the acceptance of family, the good and the bad, and he can accept his own happiness without thinking that by not getting involved with Nagisa he'll cause suffering. That was what was stopping him before. He was thinking that himself getting involved with this girl would cause her and her family unhappiness and not meeting Nagisa would be for the better.

What he realized later, via Ushio, is that family is happiness for Nagisa and her family, and Nagisa's happiness was larger than he thought when he gets the concept of family as she saw it. In going back in another universe to the point where she might die (the scene at the bottom of the hill in this case can be used as a metaphor for their souls as she is dying) and calling out for her, grabbing his own happiness that he denied himself, he gets his wife back.

The miracle is the crossing dimentions in some ways, where the revival of Nagisa, (what is suppose to be the miracle) could be seen as Tomoya making a choice and is entirely in his hands.

Tomoya had sworn to save Ushio no matter what. He fails...sort of. Ushio, as the town/Illusionary Girl gives Tomoya the chance to save Ushio. However if he's gone with what Akio had done for Nagisa, the same pattern probably would have happened, with Ushio living on borrowed time. Instead Tomoya goes back and confronts his own failure to accept happiness as is with all the strings attached...and by doing so saves both Nagisa and by extention Ushio. He also provides a better life for Ushio in doing so. Tomoya kept his promise to save Ushio no matter what. It just took him longer and caused him more pain to do it. With his acceptance of that pain and the joy that was possible, he was able to save his daughter and as a reward he's given Nagisa to share Ushio and provide the town with even more happiness.

[Haruyasha]

Alternative Ending Time! (Lets cut out the entire Fuuko scene!):

Spoiler:

After envisioning all possible moments happiness.. Everything fades white as Tomoya regains consciousness. Voices from the doctors surrounding him echo through his head, vastly moving in and out of the room. As he slowly opens his eyes, he notes figures standing around him. Singling out a particular voice, he thinks he can hear a crying Sanae.

"Why?"

It's almost as if it was the day he came back from the trip one time.. with...

"Ushio? Wait..!"

At that moment, pain strikes Tomoya like a thousand needles jabbing into his body. In a desperate voice, Tomoya screams out her name. He only has one final question.

"Someone, anyone..! Please tell me she's safe.."

Motion stopped and the room grew silent. The answer was known.

Not left with anything else, Tomoya jumps out of his bed and smashes through the door. His destination was up. Upon reaching the roof, with the voices behind him, Tomoya walks forward. It was that hospital. If it was here, it should be fine. Upon standing at the edge, Tomoya takes his final step.

Now that woulda been something I would have wished to see. (Instead of this happy-go-luck-miracle nonsense)

In order to have happiness, one must have sadness, and that's how the city manipulated Tomoya's life. They should have focused more on that, and developed the illusion world into something much more.

[Sheba]

Way to miss out the whole point of the series.

The ending may not have been the best, Nagisa may not have been the girl that fans would have liked for Tomoya. But the sum of all parts are what made Clannad as a whole. All the arcs, even the weaker ones like Yukine, served a greater purpose that paid Tomoya off in the end.

[panzerfan]

@Haruyasha:

And your scenario will then make the audience wonder how the aftermath of that will be and they will lynch you for not actually going further with the family theme! Besides, you didn't even consider the burial scene and the subsequent emofest and how that haters will accuse this to be drama for drama's sake as they ruthlessly insult your personal integrity... you will then see people wanting to roast the writer on an open fire due to not continuing on the theme of the slight miracle rampant in the show.


Scary being a scenario writer isn't it? You can easily create an outrage that will pale the fallout from this ending. Now this is irony at its finest since you created an ending that will just irate a different group of people. Hohoho...

In order to have happiness, one must have sadness, and that's how the city manipulated Tomoya's life. They should have focused more on that, and developed the illusion world into something much more.

I have mentioned several times that the people living in the city have equally toyed with the city itself for the betterment of their own ideals. By merely focusing on a lopsided view that it's the city toying with Tomoya's fate, you are easily exposed to being just as shallow. Hindsight is 20/20 on this isn't it...

As such, the least you can do is to actually develop your scenario of how to wipe the dump of Ushio and Tomoya dead, perhaps by saying "so one has to put them six feet under...", maybe giving the narration over to Akio or something as to avoid the "lol this is it guys" since there's no connection to the idea of how that happiness comes at the price of sadness that you're trying to preach just from the abrupt "wow they're both dead and that's it...?"

By the way, note that the moment you raise the "I don't care about that" defense when come criticism, you essentially tossed away your legitimacy at opposition to the original scenario due to double standards. I guess I feel opposed to an undeveloped hindsight enough that I am going to repeat this, even if it falls to deaf ears.

[Ithekro]

Haruyasha wish seems to be to make this into a series about tragedy on the order of a Greek tragedy where the leasons learned are for the audiance, not the character. Something like that would end with someone else either giving a narriation of the meaning of the story, one of the other characters giving a speech of some kind, half directed at the now dead Tomoya and half directed at the audiance about how much of a tradegy this was. It might even just be a song about it at the end.

But it would feel wrong. The story was about Tomoya's growth and understanding the meaning of family. Sure he likely died from exposure holding the dead Ushio, but that doesn't finish telling the story. The aftermath and resolution is where Tomoya finishes his journey. He understood and accepted what family means in Clannad. With such an act, if returned to the point where Ushio dies and she stays dead, than he still accepts it and lives I would guess. He would not take another wife, nor father anymore children, but he would probably stay close to what had become his extended family because he accepted the good and the bad of having a family.

The other possibility would be having the miracle save just Ushio and life continues on. Tomoya would remain a single parent raising Ushio with the help of his extended family. It would be hard, but not as hard as what his own father went though.

In both of these cases I suggest he would remain single...because he'd made his choice and all indications suggest he wasn't going to make a new one...his love was for Nagisa and by extention Ushio...he would not give it to another. He just seems like this kind of person.

Therefore the best possible resolution for the story is what we got in episode 22. The revival of Nagisa after Tomoya accepts his own happiness and the meaning of family in Clannad. Anything less doesn't do the story justice.

To quote Jason of Derailed by Darry fame:

It’s not the best ending.
She’s not the best girl.
But it’s the best story.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The other possibility would be having the miracle save just Ushio and life continues on. Tomoya would remain a single parent raising Ushio with the help of his extended family. It would be hard, but not as hard as what his own father went though.

In both of these cases I suggest he would remain single...because he'd made his choice and all indications suggest he wasn't going to make a new one...his love was for Nagisa and by extention Ushio...he would not give it to another. He just seems like this kind of person.

And the problem with this was?
Also how does THAT lead to THIS?

Therefore the best possible resolution for the story is what we got in episode 22. The revival of Nagisa after Tomoya accepts his own happiness and the meaning of family in Clannad. Anything less doesn't do the story justice.

[Sheba]

As Klash have said in another thread, it's not the first time that this tragedy (the destruction of Tomoya's family) happened, as some clues suggested it. In this light, we can argue that Tomoya had paid enough and, by accepting what come with family, friends and their web of relationships, earned his happy end.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Sheba

As Klash have said in another thread, it's not the first time that this tragedy (the destruction of Tomoya's family) happened, as some clues suggested it. In this light, we can argue that Tomoya had paid enough and, by accepting what come with family and the web of relationships, earned his happy end.

Actually, in this light, I can argue that just a live non- sick Ushio is enough for a happy ending, without the need to cast "Balls of Light" lvl 10 epic spell. But then, for me the story is flawed in its multiverse basis so I guess there's no point arguing about it. It might have been a decent story for a game, where spending time unlocking everything rewards the player with the ultimate ending, but adapted to a series, ep 22 couldn't possibly fail more for me. Killing Tomoya off would be as bad.

[-Sho-]

Just watch this final episode :

11/10 yes my thoughts didn't fall apart ! When i saw the title i expected a happy ending and Ushio was alive ! But its better , Nagisa is alive too
Don't understand very well with the other world but its was Tomoya's delusions or something like that .
Glad for the ending .
Fuuko is hilarious
So we'll have 2 episode bonus , the first seems to tell what happens before they meet .
This anime lack some kiss !!! I was like " A kiss , A kiss , A kiss , come on , A kiss .... but no ...

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Sheba

As Klash have said in another thread, it's not the first time that this tragedy (the destruction of Tomoya's family) happened, as some clues suggested it. In this light, we can argue that Tomoya had paid enough and, by accepting what come with family, friends and their web of relationships, earned his happy end.

Yeah but he already did accept what comes with family (aka loved ones die but the time you spent with them lasts forever and life goes on) before they decided that he had to "earn his happy ending". It's why I feel the whole Ushio death thing was completely unnecessary, he had already paid enough and earned his happy end before that, the one that involves Ushio and Nagisa's memory in his life. In my eyes that's far more sentimental and poignant then earning the right to turn back the clock so that everybody is happiest.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Yeah but he already did accept what comes with family (aka loved ones die but the time you spent with them lasts forever and life goes on) before they decided that he had to "earn his happy ending". It's why I feel the whole Ushio death thing was completely unnecessary, he had already paid enough and earned his happy end before that, the one that involves Ushio and Nagisa's memory in his life. In my eyes that's far more sentimental and poignant then earning the right to turn back the clock so that everybody is happiest.

You're missing the point.

Tomoya has to do this in order to appease the town and free Nagisa and Ushio from the cycle of suffering.

[Proto]

I think appease is the wrong word to use here though

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You're missing the point.

Tomoya has to do this in order to appease the town and free Nagisa and Ushio from the cycle of suffering.

Fuck the town.

[Proto]

Fuck the town.

You. will. die.