Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[wisteria233]

If I remember in episode 24 Alto's own father, showed that he approved of Alto's choice to leave the stage. Not only that but he understood why Alto left Kabuki, and was supportive of that.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

WHAT? This is an absurd statement. Did you miss that part where he gets deeply upset at not being able to help others? Which happened multiple times in the show?

Exactly, he get irritated at on his own failure to help, that is his primary response and shows of his self centered personality.

Oh, please. Yasaburo is about the most biased guy in the whole show, who sees everything through "must-get-Alto-back-on-stage" colored glasses. He was even pwned by Altos father, who himself in the end comprehended and accepted that for Alto flying was his destiny.

Yasaburo may have an agenda, that does not mean he doesn't know Alto well,. Alto's desire is to fly, but his nature is to act.

Well, there obviously is a perception problem somewhere, then. Because I can't agree even 1% with your opinion.

You don't have to, it's not that we all have to like the same characters and interpret their actions in the same way.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Bri

Exactly, he get irritated at on his own failure to help, that is his primary response and shows of his self centered personality.

Because everybody knows that trying to help someone is narcissistic. Had he been narcissistic he wouldn't be upset at his inability to help anybody. He wouldn't have helped anybody in the first place.

Originally Posted by Bri

Yasaburo may have an agenda, that does not mean he doesn't know Alto well,. Alto's desire is to fly, but his nature is to act.

What does this have to do with Alto being narcissistic?

Originally Posted by Bri

You don't have to, it's not that we all have to like the same characters and interpret their actions in the same way.

How would the show had moved in the direction it had if Alto had been selfish? Frontier would have been doomed at the end, and he wouldn't have explored other options like listening to Sheryl.


Anyway, move this discussion to the Alto thread if it needs to be explored any further.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Bri

Yasaburo may have an agenda, that does not mean he doesn't know Alto well,. Alto's desire is to fly, but his nature is to act.

Interesting, rather than try to accomplish one and distance himself from the other, he should try and find a way to have both of them coincide with one another. Which leads to episode 25 where he repeats his father's words. In other words, his nature to act doesn't necessarily have to interfere with his desire to fly.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Because everybody knows that trying to help someone is selfish. Had he been selfish he wouldn't be upset at his inability to help anybody. He wouldn't have helped anybody in the first place.

Depends on the motive, if the attempt to help comes from a desire to play the hero rather then actual concern for the other persons well being, then yes it's selfish.

Anyway, move this discussion to the Alto thread if it needs to be explored any further.

This discussion is based on the lack of reaction of Alto to the girls in the Frontier romantic triangle, seems on topic to me, tho it does stike a nerve with the die hard shippers.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Interesting, rather than try to accomplish one and distance himself from the other, he should try and find a way to have both of them coincide with one another. Which leads to episode 25 where he repeats his father's words. In other words, his nature to act doesn't necessarily have to interfere with his desire to fly.

Agreed, at the end of episode 25 he is freed from his personal burden. Only then he really acknowledges Ranka and Sheryl. I felt the open ending seemed fitting.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Bri

Depends on the motive, if the attempt to help comes from a desire to play the hero rather then actual concern for the other persons well being, then yes it's selfish.

Didn't you say the girls were his motivations?

I think there is much truth in his final statement that the girls are his inspiration

They are his support and his inspiration to protect what he feels is most important outlined by Ep 23's speech, no where has the show ever depict Alto with a hero complex.

Originally Posted by Bri

Agreed, at the end of episode 25 he is freed from his personal burden. Only then he really acknowledges Ranka and Sheryl. I felt the open ending seemed fitting.

Had he not acknowledged the girls sooner, he would have been in a constant state of denial over their choices, he never would have resolved to kill Ranka, and would have constantly pushed Sheryl to take her medicine.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Didn't you say the girls were his motivations?

I said they were his inspiration, Sheryl and Ranka acting as damsels in destress allowed Alto to assume the role of 'white knight'. He gratefully used that position to join the SMS as a pilot to escape his family trouble. He loves them both on a platonic level as a knight would have done the same (Alto takes 'method' acting to new levels ) The problem is that we really can't tell how deeply he cares due to his nature as an actor. I guess it depends on how much symapthy he generates with the individual viewer.

They are his support and his inspiration to protect what he feels is most important outlined by Ep 23's speech, no where has the show ever depict Alto with a hero complex.

Is that really Alto speaking or is he just really into his role of the hero?

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Bri

I said they were his insipration, Sheryl and Ranka acting as damsels in destress allowed Alto to assume the role of 'white knight'. He gratefully used that position to join the SMS as a pilot to escape his family trouble. He loves them both on a platonic level as a knight would have done the same (Alto takes 'method' acting to new levels ) The problem is that we really can't tell how deeply he cares due to his nature as an actor. I guess it depends on how much symapthy he generates with the individual viewer.

Is that really Alto speaking or is he just really into his role of the hero?

Motivation is a synonym of Inspiration

In Ep 23 He says he originally joined SMS to protect Ranka, but he realized that the world is much more important. Why would he lie to Klan? Where is anything that supports that he would be "acting" in that situation? Yasaburo earlier in the episode forces him to think about what he truly believes in. He chooses to protect what is most important to him.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Motivation is a synonym of Inspiration

In Ep 23 He says he originally joined SMS to protect Ranka, but he realized that the world is much more important.

Motive and inspiration are a bit different in this context.

For example: In SDF Macross, Hikaru is in love with Minmay, that love is his key character motivation to become a fighter pilot to protect Minmay. In Frontier: Alto's key character motivation is his desire to fly. Protecting Ranka allows him to join the SMS and fly. Hence she provided him the inspiration he needed to become a pilot.



This is also pretty much the problem with the Frontier triangle. Hikaru flew for the women he loves, Alto has women that love him so he can fly.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Bri

Motive and inspiration are a bit different in this context.

For example: In SDF Macross, Hikaru is in love with Minmay, that love is his key character motivation to become a fighter pilot to protect Minmay. In Frontier: Alto's key character motivation is his desire to fly. Protecting Ranka allows him to join the SMS and fly. Hence she provided him the inspiration he needed to become a pilot.



This is also pretty much the problem with the Frontier triangle. Hikaru flew for the women he loves, Alto has women that love him so he can fly.

He explicitly states he joined SMS to protect (Ranka) and to fight (to protect). Nowhere does he site his desire to fly as his reasoning to join SMS. Making Inspiration still the equivalent of motivation. Flying is the byproduct of joining SMS, otherwise he could have stayed in school to fly, there would be no need for him to join SMS.

[BetoJR]

Heh. While I would not phrase it so strongly, perhaps, I agree 100% with this statement.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This is not worth debating anymore. You are deluded. By your own argument, Mother Theresa and Mahatma Ghandi are narcissists. I would recommend looking up the definiton of the term.

No, I'm afraid not. I'll give you one more example so you can understand the argument.

A person who gives to a charity can do this out of a genuine concern for those that need help, or he can do it to make himself look good and caring in the eyes of his peers. While both help others the motivation differs, one acts out of compassion the other out of self love.

Altough this explanation is probably unnecessary as I assume this whole 4chan act is more because your upset that some one doesn't care for your beloved Alto then out of an inability to understand, so I'll leave it at that.

[BetoJR]

Actually, he is not the only one who disagrees with your point. Most people just don't care to debate something that amounts to personal opinion, like me. Be aware that this isn't a problem with my understanding skills, either. It is simply me disagreeing with you and not feeling up to the task of listing a boatload of reasons as to why.

Can we move on, now?

[monir]

For whatever its worth, I partially agree with you as far as flying being one the two main leading reason/inspiration/cause for Alto's need for joining the Macross team. He never stopped talking about the endless blue sky and at the end, the sky Bajraa (sp?) world will have. I also think the romance factor still need to be weighed in, especially near the end. Sheryl and Ranka made it too obvious for Alto to not to.

You also have my thanks, Bri, for keeping your cool.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Most people just don't care to debate something that amounts to personal opinion, like me.

This.

Including personal opinions into an argument has the assumption that the other person believes, or will believe the same thing you do. Most of the time that is not the case and things degenerate quickly into something not so pretty. A real mess of an argument and a mess for the moderators if I might say.

Besides, showing a clear bias and lack of objectivity just... lessens the validity of your case. I do my best to see both sides while only supporting one.

In Macross, only one personal opinion will ever matter because he controls the ins and outs of Macross. And that is Shouji Kawamori!

[Bri]

Originally Posted by monir

For whatever its worth, I partially agree with you as far as flying being one the two main leading reason/inspiration/cause for Alto's need for joining the Macross team. He never stopped talking about the endless blue sky and at the end, the sky Bajraa (sp?) world will have. I also think the romance factor still need to be weighed in, especially near the end. Sheryl and Ranka made it too obvious for Alto to not to.

You also have my thanks, Bri, for keeping your cool.

No worries, it was my bad as well. I didn't realise how sensitive the debate on the triangle still is and would have worded my innitial post quite differently in hindsight.

[magnuskn]

Hey, I never said that flying was not one of the reasons Alto joined SMS. It definitely was one of the things that he wanted to do, see the Yakh Deculture version of episode one.

But this is far from him being narcissistic, which is what Bri states Alto as being, without ever having given one compelling reason as to why he thinks Alto is that.

I say: Alto repeatedly was shown to care deeply for others, including people he did not know personally.

Bri says: Alto is narcissistic! I know, because Yasaburo said so!

I can give precise examples, if need be, of Alto directly stating and acting in the way I describe him. I wonder where the examples for Bris point of view are, because other than Yasaburo saying so, they do not exist.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I can give precise examples, if need be, of Alto directly stating and acting in the way I describe him. I wonder where the examples for Bris point of view are, because other than Yasaburo saying so, they do not exist.

Fair enough question, some examples that Alto is self centered from the top of my head:

1) Alto requests a valkyrie from Ozma to fight the Vajira while is untrained and more likely to be a danger to himself and everyone else and not realizing this.

2) Alto performs a maneuver he was told explicitly not to do, nearly killing Sheryl at the concert, because he wanted to show off.

3) Michael questions Alto joining up with the SMS. He is afraid that Alto will put his own principles before his duty and will run off again as he did in the past and having to clean up the mess after Alto again.

4) Alto tries to kill Aikun while asked not to by Ranka, citing revenge for Michaels death and declaring that the skies will never be peacefull as long as both sides are alive.
This answer exemplifies the character for me, ignoring his friends request by placing his own desires first and hints that Alto does not only want to protect Frontier but also sees the Varija as an obstacle between him and a clear sky to fly in.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Bri

Fair enough question, some examples that Alto is self centered from the top of my head:

1) Alto requests a valkyrie from Ozma to fight the Vajira while is untrained and more likely to be a danger to himself and everyone else and not realizing this.

...while having been presented with direct evidence that even trained pilots get killed. He wanted to help the people of Frontier. How is that close to narcissistic? You might call it "hot-blooded", which is a syndrome nearly every mecha pilot suffers from.

Originally Posted by Bri

2) Alto performs a maneuver he was told explicitly not to do, nearly killing Sheryl at the concert, because he wanted to show off.

... to which he was subtly egged on by Luca to do it. Not to mention that just prior to this Michael had called him out directly to be the "Always in second place" princess. Again with the hot-bloodedness.

Also, this is from the first episode, where Alto still is in "trying to find his place in the world" mode and was still pretty much rude to everyone.

Originally Posted by Bri

3) Michael questions Alto joining up with the SMS. He is afraid that Alto will put his own principles before his duty and will run off again as he did in the past and having to clean up the mess after Alto again.

Yeah, only that Michael is acting from second-hand knowledge, never had to "clean up Altos mess" in regards to his family before.

Not to mention that he didn't say what you said he did. I quote from the THORA release ( which are regarded as the best translations ).

M: "Alto... are you going to run away again?"
A: "Run? Who would do that?"
M: "You're too idealistic. I've flown with you for more than a year. As you are now, you wouldn't be able to live with yourself if you kill someone."

That doesn't sound exactly as if Michael worries about Alto being narcissistic, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Bri

4) Alto tries to kill Aikun while asked not to by Ranka, citing revenge for Michaels death and declaring that the skies will never be peacefull as long as both sides are alive.

Um, lol? Ai-kuns species, of which not much was known at the moment but that they are mindless beasts which constantly attack Frontier, just killed Altos best friend. From his standpoint, Ranka clearly was deluded, since neither he nor everyone ( excepting Ranka ) else had ever seen sign before of any friendly intentions by the Vajra. His reaction was entirely justified.

Originally Posted by Bri

This answer exemplifies the character for me, ignoring his friends request by placing his own desires first and hints that Alto does not only want to protect Frontier but also sees the Varija as an obstacle between him and a clear sky to fly in.

You ignore precedent and circumstance. Frontier had been attacked for months on end by what appeared to be mindless monsters, which had just almost destroyed Altos home and killed thousands upon thousands of innocents. Also, it had been shown over the last ten episodes that Alto was slipping into an evermore fatalistic "us or them" mindset, which is completely understandable given the circumstances.

Sorry, you fail to present anything resembling a real argument as to a place which would make Alto "narcissistic". I'd still recommend looking up the dictionary for the meaning of the word.

[Audit01]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Sorry, you fail to present anything resembling a real argument as to a place which would make Alto "narcissistic".

Well you are right he was not narcissistic in the series but he was kind of cold.
He did not seem to care about love relatioships.

That also probably proves a theory that says that girls are attracted to guys that play "tough to get"...