US Elections 2016 Part II: The Debates & General Election

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Forcing down your throat? Jesus dude, he's merely expressing how and why he came around to supporting Clinton more enthusiastically after admitting he was basically a Bernie bro who hated her. There were many good details provided concerning her record (You know the stuff she ACTUALLY does, not what she says or others say about her). He never absolved her of some the more glaring mistakes. You also can't seem to read as the article said:

"Perhaps Clinton's greatest blemish on her record is the destabilizing of Libya, which led to the Benghazi diplomatic compound attack. Certainly, it was one of the career bullet points that made me despise her. "

As for your health care point, then Obama is a sell-out too. And guess what? He's not hated with the same vitriol on the Bernie wing of the DNC (Except for the more extreme Stein supporters). I think you have to acknowledge the sheer amount of character assassination she has had to endure in politics for the last 25 years. No one in public service in the US in recent times comes even close to the level of scrutiny she had to endure. The right wing sure has done a fantastic job that's for sure.

On the Libyan paragraph. You know that saying on 'anything that is said before the word "but" does not worth a damn' or something like that? Can't remember whom, could be Ned Stark. Anyway, yeah that's what I felt coming off that paragraph.

And a "Bernie bro" calling himself "Bernie bro"? Yeah I guess he now call himself "Hillary shill" and "regressive left" too


On Obama, who said that he was not a sellout? His Obamacare was a moderate Republican plan, despite the Democrats had enough number to push through even singer payer and he got 0 vote from Republican anyway. That policy was a failure from both left and right perspective. He is the person who signed Bush's temporary tax cut in to be permanent. And his TPP is only more popular than slavery. There is a reason why Bernie was seeking for someone to run and push him to be more progressive in 2012. (and I haven't started at Drone programs, NSA, Bin Laden fiasco, so and so on)

He only managed to look better now because Hillary is even a worse sellout, and Trump is Trump, that's all.

[MCAL]

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016...deeper-n657466

Trump will just not let it go. It's pretty disgusting.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by MCAL

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016...deeper-n657466

Trump will just not let it go. It's pretty disgusting.

Heh, it take two hands to make a clap. The Clinton campaign could have the high road if they just run with Trump debate answer, instead of arranging Machado press conference call and forcefully push it into the media talk.

That simply gave the Republican media platform to chastise the woman on air, and criticise Hillary for dirty politics

[Reckoner]

What? Clinton quoting Trump word for word and him melting down over it is somehow "dirty" politics?

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Heh, it take two hands to make a clap. The Clinton campaign could have the high road if they just run with Trump debate answer, instead of arranging Machado press conference call and forcefully push it into the media talk.

That simply gave the Republican media platform to chastise the woman on air, and criticise Hillary for dirty politics

Seriously, do you favor Trump over Hilary? Look at this from another perspective, Hilary is just your regular run of the mill corrupt politician, the only difference is that she is under a giant microscope. If you look at pretty much any republican politician they are just as corrupt as Hilary and in some cases even worse. The republican politicians are just straight bought out by corporations and dont care to hide it.

Trump however, is in a league of his own; not only is he a massive corporate goon, he is also a corporate puppeteer. He is openly racist. He has such a massive ego that it completely blinds him to any form empathy or understanding beyond his own. He also lies compulsively and loves to instigate violence. His personality has been so distorted by his upbringing that I believe it has reached the point of aberration. I really can't find any redeeming qualities in the man.

Please explain yourself, why do you like trump more? Try to be as logical as possible.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Please explain yourself, why do you like trump more? Try to be as logical as possible.

As far as I am going: I live on the Balkan peninsula.

That should be all the info you need.

Not that Trump is any better but at least he didn't bomb and break any countries.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Seriously, do you favor Trump over Hilary? Look at this from another perspective, Hilary is just your regular run of the mill corrupt politician, the only difference is that she is under a giant microscope. If you look at pretty much any republican politician they are just as corrupt as Hilary and in some cases even worse. The republican politicians are just straight bought out by corporations and dont care to hide it.

Trump however, is in a league of his own; not only is he a massive corporate goon, he is also a corporate puppeteer. He is openly racist. He has such a massive ego that it completely blinds him to any form empathy or understanding beyond his own. He also lies compulsively and loves to instigate violence. His personality has been so distorted by his upbringing that I believe it has reached the point of aberration. I really can't find any redeeming qualities in the man.

Please explain yourself, why do you like trump more? Try to be as logical as possible.

Rather like Trump, I actually hate Hillary more, so let's just start with it.

I guess I tended to defend Trump more because the attack on him from the left tended to be ridiculous. And it tends to bug me more when "my side" get as low/lower than the Republicans

For example, Trump is an openly racist? That is FAR from the truth. Because firstly, Larry King said so, and he had more integrity than every remained MSM pundits combined . And secondly, Trump has been in entertainment industries for that how many long, the only industry where you are under much more microscope than politician. Even Matt Damon was called racist at one point there just to prove my point. And the moment he enter political ring, he suddenly becomes openly racist? Where is the logic in that?

Not to mention, unlike Mexican, which is not a race, Slav is actually one. And how many times have I seen the MSM played jokes about his wife being bought through a catalog again? Not racist when we do it. I assume

Corporate puppeteer? Well at least that is better than corporate puppet. Big ego? How is it any difference with Hillary's "being ambitious", except one sounds more negative? Lie compulsively? Ah ha this one I agree. Except his opponent is even less trustworthy. And loves to instigate violence? Really? Comparing to Hillary and even Obama? I guess bombing another country is no longer considered as violence in US anymore?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Please explain yourself, why do you like trump more? Try to be as logical as possible.

Let me try as well. I'll admit my primary reason isn't that logical - it's simply that Trump is interesting and Hillary is boring. It's exciting to see big shifts in the balance of power and how they shake the world.

For more logical reasons, there's the free speech issue. One thing I really like about America is the first amendment rights, and Trump seems to be the one taking those more seriously. For example, the U.S. did a lot to protect the Internet we're enjoying now, but just today it gave up the DNS system...could be a major headache when that is messed with. Would not have happened under Trump.

I like that Trump has the stones to criticize Muslims for their backward beliefs, and don't see that as being particularly racist. Sure, when you do criticize them, you end up getting the support of actual racists. For example, if you were a famous person, went on Twitter, and ridiculed Iran for shit like this, you would end up being retweeted by actual racists saying things like "Yeah, fuck all the sandniggers to death!", and as a result might be associated with that crowd by people who can't see nuance. But that's just the unfortunate nature of social media.

Finally, I think Trump would be okay in foreign policy. Probably won't start any new wars. Seems to be getting along with Russia. The technocrats in charge of China are too smart to be enraged by him. Had a meeting in Mexico and came back without any bullet holes. Even if Trump withdraws military backing from Europe, I'm cool with that. My country is already not NATO...I don't think Europe needs it.

[risingstar3110]

Oh and to sum up, how Trump lie is different to Hillary's one?

Can't remember from where but they did put it perfectly "The MSM take Trump's words literally, but does not take them seriously. His supporters take his words seriously, but does not take them literally."

[Eisdrache]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

For example, Trump is an openly racist? That is FAR from the truth. [...]

Not to mention, unlike Mexican, which is not a race, Slav is actually one. And how many times have I seen the MSM played jokes about his wife being bought through a catalog again? Not racist when we do it. I assume

Are we really going through this again? In his very first speech when he announced his run for presidency he called Mexican immigrants drug dealers and rapists. Can't really get more open that this. And the list just goes on and on.

And before the umpteenth defense of 'Mexican is not a race therefore calling them rapists is not racism' this is utter BS. 'Race' is nothing more than a cultural grouping that can be defined in many different ways. Skin tone, ethnicity, nationality, language, religion are all viable ways to define race if you so desire.

Yes democrats and republicans are both guilty of racism at times. Though Trump has been working very hard to racialize groups to make them the target of racism.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Are we really going through this again? In his very first speech when he announced his run for presidency he called Mexican immigrants drug dealers and rapists. Can't really get more open that this. And the list just goes on and on.

And before the umpteenth defense of 'Mexican is not a race therefore calling them rapists is not racism' this is utter BS. 'Race' is nothing more than a cultural grouping that can be defined in many different ways. Skin tone, ethnicity, nationality, language, religion are all viable ways to define race if you so desire.

Yes democrats and republicans are both guilty of racism at times. Though Trump has been working very hard to racialize groups to make them the target of racism.

Eh, he did not call Mexican immigrants to be drug dealers and rapists. As quoted:
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

Which later was further clarified:
“I don’t see how there is any room for misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the statement I made on June 16th during my Presidential announcement speech. What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc.”


And no you can't invent a new meaning for "race", just because you want to call someone racist. Language does not work that way. Race is genetically identified and has been this way since late 18th century

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

And no you can't invent a new meaning for "race", just because you want to call someone racist. Language does not work that way. Race is genetically identified and has been this way since late 18th century

Don't bring genetics into it. Eisdrache's right, "race" is a social construct, not a scientific one. There's a set of markers we've decided are somehow important enough to set people in different groups, but don't go pretend those markers are absolute rather than arbitrary, not to mention subjects to all kind of variations.

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Eh, he did not call Mexican immigrants to be drug dealers and rapists. As quoted:
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

You do know that illegal border crossings between the US and Mexico are in the net negatives right? Basically, people have been leaving the country for years rather than coming to it from the border. Trump just ignored this fact and stocked fears on immigration as rallying cry to begin his candidacy.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Don't bring genetics into it. Eisdrache's right, "race" is a social construct, not a scientific one. There's a set of markers we've decided are somehow important enough to set people in different groups, but don't go pretend those markers are absolute rather than arbitrary, not to mention subjects to all kind of variations.

See?? This is the crap people going through trying to prove Trump racist.

As quoted in the article:
"In an article published today (Feb. 4) in the journal Science, four scholars say racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out."
"It's a concept we think is too crude to provide useful information, it's a concept that has social meaning that interferes in the scientific understanding of human genetic diversity and it's a concept that we are not the first to call upon moving away from,"

Thank God the world still sane enough to not redefine the meaning of language every time 4 scholars meet up and decide the need to redefine a word.

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

You do know that illegal border crossings between the US and Mexico are in the net negatives right? Basically, people have been leaving the country for years rather than coming to it from the border. Trump just ignored this fact and stocked fears on immigration as rallying cry to begin his candidacy.

It's not matter.

Frankly, what Trump said was dumb as fuck. Not only he assumed that the Mexican government actually had a policy to send illegal immigrants to US. But somehow Mexican government can round up rapist and drug dealer across the country to send to the US.

Does not make it racist through

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

See?? This is the crap people going through trying to prove Trump racist.

As quoted in the article:
"In an article published today (Feb. 4) in the journal Science, four scholars say racial categories are weak proxies for genetic diversity and need to be phased out."
"It's a concept we think is too crude to provide useful information, it's a concept that has social meaning that interferes in the scientific understanding of human genetic diversity and it's a concept that we are not the first to call upon moving away from,"

Thank God the world still sane enough to not redefine the meaning of language every time 4 scholars meet up and decide the need to redefine a word.

At least I provided a source. Have you?

And hey, you want others? They're not hard to find.

"Race" isn't genetic, it's social. You want to say that, as a social construct, it's important? Go right ahead (you racist ). I can accept that, colloquially, a tomato's a vegetable and not a fruit. I have a rough idea what a Black person is.

But the meaning has never been scientific. It certainly hasn't been about genetics since the "18th century" (and where did you pull that from?), since Mendel published his works 1866, and the word "genetics" was first used in 1905.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Some people really ought to be thread-banned for everyone's sanity here. I'm really tempted to call out names, but won't need to since they already know who they are.

Anyway, this thread needs more Bill Maher humour. After the "Deplorables", we have the "Inexplicables".

[Ithekro]

Mexican is not a race according to the US Department of Commerce when they were doing the 2010 US Census.

It was classed as part of the Hispanic ethnicity. Race is a separate question, because being Hispanic tends to be a very broad spectrum of mixed races, historically speaking. The Census would ask for someone to state what race(s) they identified with. They would ask twice if you didn't have one that conformed to their check marked list. The third time they would write in whatever that person said as "Other".

[Reckoner]

It's the height of intellectual dishonesty to not understand how Trump has managed to fill this election with extremely insensitive racial divisiveness. He clearly does not understand minorities in this country and has insulted them many times. It does not matter if we quibble over whether Trump is actually a "racist," but his actions are the exact opposite of what we need in this country to heal and bring people together. His campaign has in fact brought out the worst strains of bigotry in this country.

A stronger case for racism is how Trump denied ethnic minorities (i.e. African Americans) from housing and ended up getting sued for it and had to settle.

[MCAL]

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/782236867232096260

In case you wanted a timeline...

Putting aside Trump's bigotry, there's no denying his misogyny especially these past few days.

[Harbinger]

You know, there's something that would be really useful, especially for this election. Give people the following choice:

()Clinton
()Trump
()Stein
()Johnson
()Other Third Party thingy
()NON-CONFIDENCE with the current choices (or just NONE OF THE ABOVE)

If the last option has more votes, then ALL major parties have to present new candidate.

People who think hate Clinton and Trump will have a legitimate choice. Instead of voting for the lesser of 2 evils, they simply PURGE both evils. Bye bye Trump. Go to Hell Clinton.

Yeah... it's not going to happen though... but it would be nice to have.