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Old 2021-01-17, 19:13   Link #101
Chosen_Hero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
I...I don't even know what to say to this
Spoiler for clarification:


Oh boy, the generic cartoonishly evil Japanese highschool students strike yet again.
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Old 2021-01-17, 19:34   Link #102
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
Roxy is a demon? She definitely doesn't look the stereotype, but it seems like humanity and the demons were able to come together after the war. Well, all of them except the Superd .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
That smile in the thumbnail is so trademark Megumin . She really owns that kind of smile that it's difficult for me not to think of her whenever a character did it.
Incidentally both Roxy and Megumin are 魔族 "Mazoku" (Though Megumin more precisely is a Koumazoku, crimson demon).

Now there's the fact that "Mazoku" is kinda difficult to translate, since "Ma" could mean both demon and magic, it's the very same "Ma" of "Mahou" as in "Mahou Shoujo", meanwhile "zoku" means tribe. So it's very possible that they aren't really supposed to be the demons of western folklore.

Incidentally Xellos from Slayers is also a "Mazoku", though in his case he's definitely demonic, even if he appears like a regular human.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
My second reaction after watching this episode is: do some normal people really like to masturbate outside the room (where anybody can see) while peeking others having sex? I thought it was only a thing in hentai & porn??
I'm not sure about masturbating but there's evidence that in the past too they enjoyed peeping other people having sex, for example:

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Old 2021-01-17, 20:06   Link #103
Chosen_Hero
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^That's called voyeurism and it's a lot more common than most people think.
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Old 2021-01-17, 20:08   Link #104
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not sure about masturbating but there's evidence that in the past too they enjoyed peeping other people having sex, for example:

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It's not the peeping that's the problem. We all know that people like to peep lewd stuffs since probably the first civilization.

The problem is the "masturbating in the hallway" stuff. That's really just a modern porn fetish that the writer casually brought into the story.
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Old 2021-01-17, 20:11   Link #105
bakato
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
I just think it was more unnecessary than anything else, but I just chalk it up to the writing being flawed as a product of its time and a trendsetter.

I mean, actively crucifying him outside of the school is excessive not only when you consider the logistics of how they could do that, the consequences of what would happen, and the seriousness of how it would be handled in a first-world country (which he was in at the time). The writer probably didn't consider that and just threw it in as a means to justify his fears and earn some sympathy points. Less would have been more here to be honest, bullying in itself is pretty traumatizing without needing to go so far in a constructed world of fiction and I could even understand them pulling his pants down in public to humiliate him, but stringing him up is just excessive.

Well, specifically we don't know why he got a second chance at life so we don't know if there's some kind of mechanic behind it or something else. At least not yet. But, in the context of writing, you're not wrong.

The author presents him as an Otaku in its purest, most unflattering form without going into being an outright jerk. Yeah he was a victim of bullying to justify his fear for staying locked in his home, but at the end of the day he was a fat loser who skipped his parents funeral to masturbate to something really unwholesome (WN spoilers) in contrast to any other kind of more understandable excuse and got the boot because he had it coming, with premise being that if a guy who screwed his life up this much gets a second chance and can do it better, anyone can do so... presumably without the dying bit.

Or so I tell myself.
It is excessive and borderline contrived, obviously for the purpose of justifying his behavior.

I will admit that I don't know much about the standards of otaku but this seems pretty low even for us. Sure, anyone can, but do they deserve it? There are people, leading happy lives they very much cherish, who would throw themselves in front of trucks to save total strangers. There are people who labor everyday to earn a better life for themselves and their loved ones, who would also sacrifice themselves to save strangers. I've watched Kizumonogatari and played Nier: Automata, I've seen what real sacrifice is all about and this isn't it.
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Old 2021-01-17, 20:35   Link #106
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
It gets worse. Why did the funeral happen to begin with?

Honestly, I just can't get behind the premise here. The fact that this guy gets a second chance at life is incredibly insulting. He was practically suicidal when he saw that truck. The only life left for him was one of a beggar starving on the streets. So he saved some kids at virtually no loss to himself. Wow, give the guy a cookie.
I don't see why we need to view it as him getting a "reward". In my opinion, it's more than enough for him to have ended up with a second chance and watching him do his best to make the most of it. No moral questions of whether a person who'd suffered terribly but also did a lot of bad stuff "deserves" a second chance just because he jumped to save a few kids one time. Just a simple question of whether there's hope left in even the lowest creatures to grow and change if they have the courage, strength and determination to try.

As for what he was jerking to, it's not just the manga and anime. The light novel also describes it as loli porn. True, it doesn't clearly say that it was images rather than real girls, and the fact that it was specified as uncensored does raise some question, it still seems clear that the author tried to tone it down a bit and have him not actually looking at THAT sort of stuff.
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Old 2021-01-17, 20:56   Link #107
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
It's not the peeping that's the problem. We all know that people like to peep lewd stuffs since probably the first civilization.

The problem is the "masturbating in the hallway" stuff. That's really just a modern porn fetish that the writer casually brought into the story.
I mean, even if that was the case, skirts above the knee and modern-like panties aren't really a medieval stuff either. In the end this is a completely different world, and there isn't even Christianity or Islam that could justify repression of sexual activities.

Maybe they don't even think masturbating in public is such a big deal, as Greek people didn't:

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Old 2021-01-17, 21:00   Link #108
Frontier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
It's not the peeping that's the problem. We all know that people like to peep lewd stuffs since probably the first civilization.

The problem is the "masturbating in the hallway" stuff. That's really just a modern porn fetish that the writer casually brought into the story.
I guess I don't really know modern porn fetishes that well, because I just thought of it as Roxy being really sexually frustrated and wanting to really hear how passionate Rudy's parents are .
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
It is excessive and borderline contrived, obviously for the purpose of justifying his behavior.

I will admit that I don't know much about the standards of otaku but this seems pretty low even for us. Sure, anyone can, but do they deserve it? There are people, leading happy lives they very much cherish, who would throw themselves in front of trucks to save total strangers. There are people who labor everyday to earn a better life for themselves and their loved ones, who would also sacrifice themselves to save strangers. I've watched Kizumonogatari and played Nier: Automata, I've seen what real sacrifice is all about and this isn't it.
I don't think it's a matter of deserving or trying to justify the way he is, just showing that even someone who seems like scum can step up to the table when given the chance.
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Old 2021-01-17, 21:05   Link #109
Jan-Poo
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And on the scum level I still rate "Rudy" lower than "Tanya", at least he never ruined anyone's life.
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Old 2021-01-17, 21:25   Link #110
bakato
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I don't see why we need to view it as him getting a "reward". In my opinion, it's more than enough for him to have ended up with a second chance and watching him do his best to make the most of it. No moral questions of whether a person who'd suffered terribly but also did a lot of bad stuff "deserves" a second chance just because he jumped to save a few kids one time. Just a simple question of whether there's hope left in even the lowest creatures to grow and change if they have the courage, strength and determination to try.
Generally speaking, these isekai shows justify the reincarnation of their protagonists as some sort of karmic reward for some noble sacrifice that resulted in their deaths. We didn't even learn what a horrible human being he was until this episode, but it was also the same one that showed us the circumstances of his death. Whether it's the intention or not, the show pushing the link between his circumstances and reincarnation.

Hope? It takes a special kind of idiot and scumbag to fail a second life while having memories of the first. How can he not succeed?
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Old 2021-01-17, 21:37   Link #111
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I mean, even if that was the case, skirts above the knee and modern-like panties aren't really a medieval stuff either. In the end this is a completely different world, and there isn't even Christianity or Islam that could justify repression of sexual activities.

Maybe they don't even think masturbating in public is such a big deal, as Greek people didn't:

NSFW:
Images
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Unless I hear a character from this world says that "tutor masturbating in a hallway is a normal thing", I don't buy that scene as "normal" within this universe.

Also, the picture that you posted was a drawing of a mythological demihuman (satyr?) that's well-known for their often-uncontrollable sexual drive. That is not a representation of the Greek society, just like how all their naked statues do not represent their everyday lives. I don't think Greek scholars & teachers can masturbate in public wherever the hell they want without facing social/academic consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
I guess I don't really know modern porn fetishes that well, because I just thought of it as Roxy being really sexually frustrated and wanting to really hear how passionate Rudy's parents are .
Masturbating in the hallway is just as weird (if not more) as peeing or crapping in the hallway. And when the one who did it is a tutor/teacher, it is even more disturbing. And yes, you can find that fetish portrayed in a great number of hentai titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And on the scum level I still rate "Rudy" lower than "Tanya", at least he never ruined anyone's life.
From the anime info that I gathered, Tanya was in charge in firing non-productive employees. I see nothing wrong with that when the guy he fired was truly non-productive. Someone needs to make the tough call on that situation and it's a thankless job.
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Old 2021-01-17, 22:02   Link #112
maximilianjenus
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you are really blowing the masturbating thing out of proportion.
roxy is being pretty discrete about ti, its more like she is just peeping, this scene was done the same way in the manga minus the close ups and a lot of manga readers did not even notice what was she doing. that was a pretty fun day in the discord as we were wondering if the anime staff would skip the masturbation scene and manga readers were asking what masturbation scene.
i try not to talk about skipped content because this series is so full of foreshadowing that ita like a complex web where i have no idea when something is mentioned, in this case roxys age, as she is a mazoku... funny thing i was expecting the complains to be about a minor masturbating, not about how realistic masturbating in the hallway while everyone else is either having sex or sleeping was.
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Old 2021-01-17, 22:03   Link #113
Twi
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
you are really blowing the masturbating thing out of proportion.
roxy is being pretty discrete about ti, its more like she is just peeping, this scene was done the same way in the manga minus the close ups and a lot of manga readers did not even notice what was she doing. that was a pretty fun day in the discord as we were wondering if the anime staff would skip the masturbation scene and manga readers were asking what masturbation scene.
i try not to talk about skipped content because this series is so full of foreshadowing that ita like a complex web where i have no idea when something is mentioned, in this case roxys age, as she is a mazoku... funny thing i was expecting the complains to be about a minor masturbating, not about how realistic masturbating in the hallway while everyone else is either having sex or sleeping was.
Her age doesn't get mentioned for... quite a while judging from what I remember. But honestly, no one think she's a minor and they mentioned you're an adult when you're 15, so no one is really going to question that. Again, its not the fact that she was doing the deed. It's the fact that someone who is categorized as somewhat ditzy but genius wizard was doing it out where she could get caught by either the maid or her student, who lives on the same floor. It feels contrived, serves no real purpose other than fanservice, and ultimately adds very little to her character in the year and a half she's been with them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bakato View Post
It is excessive and borderline contrived, obviously for the purpose of justifying his behavior.

I will admit that I don't know much about the standards of otaku but this seems pretty low even for us. Sure, anyone can, but do they deserve it? There are people, leading happy lives they very much cherish, who would throw themselves in front of trucks to save total strangers. There are people who labor everyday to earn a better life for themselves and their loved ones, who would also sacrifice themselves to save strangers. I've watched Kizumonogatari and played Nier: Automata, I've seen what real sacrifice is all about and this isn't it.
I agree with you.

But I also have to consider who this kind of story is written for. Namely Otaku who would relate to the him. Just about every Isekai panders to that specific person, because most of the guys who get delivered to a new world via vehicular homicide copying this formula aren't exactly people who would deserve to get reincarnated if we were really measuring it on a scale compared to productive members of society outside of a vacuum.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
As for what he was jerking to, it's not just the manga and anime. The light novel also describes it as loli porn. True, it doesn't clearly say that it was images rather than real girls, and the fact that it was specified as uncensored does raise some question, it still seems clear that the author tried to tone it down a bit and have him not actually looking at THAT sort of stuff.

Yeah, they kind of have to make that change because one is a legally acceptable if all too common and squicky fetish and the other is illegal for obvious reasons and hopefully no LN Editor would allow the MC to actually indulge in that sort of thing.
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Old 2021-01-17, 22:19   Link #114
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
you are really blowing the masturbating thing out of proportion.
roxy is being pretty discrete about ti, its more like she is just peeping, this scene was done the same way in the manga minus the close ups and a lot of manga readers did not even notice what was she doing. that was a pretty fun day in the discord as we were wondering if the anime staff would skip the masturbation scene and manga readers were asking what masturbation scene.
i try not to talk about skipped content because this series is so full of foreshadowing that ita like a complex web where i have no idea when something is mentioned, in this case roxys age, as she is a mazoku... funny thing i was expecting the complains to be about a minor masturbating, not about how realistic masturbating in the hallway while everyone else is either having sex or sleeping was.
I'm less blowing it up and more pointing it out how weird, indecent & hentai-pandering it is. It also unnecessarily diminish her character to a degree (given the implications) which is too bad coz I like her enough. Everything could've been fine if they just change the place where she masturbates to a more private place. Something simple like that that differenciate between good, average & bad writing qualities.

Still, if you're having fun with that scene then you do you.
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Old 2021-01-17, 22:49   Link #115
Thor's Hammer
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I have to agree with those who say that masturbating in the hallway where it was very easy to get caught if anyone walked out the door was likely not a common thing even in the distant past. Even more ludicrous is that Rudeus's flame clearly lit up the hallway to the point where Roxy was, and Roxy did not notice that Rudeus was watching, which requires an unbelievable amount of suspension of belief to defend how this was animated. The main takeaway I got from this scene was that the author watches a lot of hentai.

And the show continues to glorify eroge lines even though they would never work in real life, and that's not because women hear eroge lines all the time. It's because eroge are entirely meant for wish fulfillment with the lines in them in reality being too awkward and distant from what normal people would actually say.

This show isn't even consistent with whether Rudeus is attracted to his mother at all. In the first episode, he says he cannot get aroused by her, but this episode, he wants to see her naked body, which shows he really is attracted to her after all. The only logical explanation I can think of for this inconsistency is that the author wanted to soften Rudeus's image in that first part to not scare away people who would find it disgusting that a guy would get aroused from sucking on his mother's breasts, and now, Rudeus's true nature is revealed for all to see. Masturbating to what appears to be a picture of a naked loli instead of being at his parents' funeral is just scumbag behaviour regardless of his issues.

It was also extremely contrived that the bullies humiliated Rudeus in class and then proceeded to drag him outside the school where they crucified him, taking loads of pictures in the process. That was very excessive, and it's obvious this show used that to justify Rudeus's behaviour, but there is no justification for being into underage girls just because he was bullied. The writing in this show is so poor, and it's clearly meant to pander to a very specific audience.
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Old 2021-01-17, 23:07   Link #116
TheForsaken
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Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer View Post
In the first episode, he says he cannot get aroused by her, but this episode, he wants to see her naked body, which shows he really is attracted to her after all.
Err ... what are you talking about? Are we really watching the same episode?
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Old 2021-01-17, 23:08   Link #117
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Generally speaking, these isekai shows justify the reincarnation of their protagonists as some sort of karmic reward for some noble sacrifice that resulted in their deaths. We didn't even learn what a horrible human being he was until this episode, but it was also the same one that showed us the circumstances of his death. Whether it's the intention or not, the show pushing the link between his circumstances and reincarnation.

Hope? It takes a special kind of idiot and scumbag to fail a second life while having memories of the first. How can he not succeed?
I've watched a lot of isekai, and while I won't deny that "reward" is one of the paths taken (one of my favorites, at least in the LN/manga version, has a girl rewarded for saving a child whose ideas would avert mankind's eventual doom), it's hardly that prevalent. Very frequently, it's either done as an apology for some deity's involvement or failure to stop the event, or just random chance. Seriously, most reincarnation series I've read make no claim of "rewarding" the MC, it just sort of happens. At most, I'd say this was meant to show that as awful as he is, he still had some good in him, enough to jump in and save others despite personal fear.

And I'd have to disagree with you about it being so unbelievable that a person would fail twice. Maintaining memories as well as initial personality is a big setback, as we've already seen. He had to push himself hard and still couldn't leave his house due to the continued trauma of his past. He's still got a lot of what he was before, and is struggling to change it. Just because you have a new body doesn't necessarily mean you're a new person, and if you can't overcome the weaknesses and vices that led you to ruin before, then obviously you'll fall once more. And again the story seems to frame itself around just that: a man struggling to do things right this time, to prove that, scum as he himself knows he was, he can indeed be a good, respectable man.

I can understand you having a strong dislike for the character. This series isn't for everyone, and if your initial take on the character leads you to this degree of derision toward it then that's fine, I'm just saying I see it differently.

Also, as for Thor's statement about Rudy wanting to see his mom naked, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. He said nothing about wanting to see her naked. Closest I saw was when his parents were at it and he decided to barge in and ask what they were doing naked, but he didn't say anything about seeing her body, he just thought it'd be hilarious to hear their panicked excuses.
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Old 2021-01-17, 23:17   Link #118
Thor's Hammer
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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
Err ... what are you talking about? Are we really watching the same episode?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller
Also, as for Thor's statement about Rudy wanting to see his mom naked, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. He said nothing about wanting to see her naked. Closest I saw was when his parents were at it and he decided to barge in and ask what they were doing naked, but he didn't say anything about seeing her body, he just thought it'd be hilarious to hear their panicked excuses.
Rudeus may have intended to "prank" his parents, but he made the same face he did when he was having dirty thoughts about Roxy. I take that as a sign that he wanted to see his mother naked and would even enjoy doing so.
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Old 2021-01-18, 00:05   Link #119
Twi
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I think the face while in the mindset of being a fat, ugly otaku is just applied to any situation where he isn't pretending to be younger than he is.
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Old 2021-01-18, 00:10   Link #120
BWTraveller
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Maybe. But his face looked a little different to me. Enough that I don't find it hard to assume that that look was the look of a guy with a dirty sense of humor looking forward to the scene rather than a pervert looking to see some boobs.

BTW, forgot to say, but I'm not entirely sure we can take his statements as entirely descriptive of the world and its culture. For instance, he's only been using those eroge lines on one girl, a girl who's been spending a good deal of time in a land where people's first reaction to her appearance is fear and loathing. Just because she hears those lines and sees them as fresh and romantic doesn't mean a village girl with popular boys pursuing her won't find the words unnatural and weird. Even so, some of the lines aren't all that forced, and those lines would indeed benefit from a lack of games and other media exhausting them.
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