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Old 2021-02-08, 07:38   Link #481
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
She was doing it so she had a reason to talk with Paul. The novel notes Rudy noticed that she was trying to hit on him, and badly at that, and the kid was getting more and more embarrassed being drug there after any minor injury to the point that was the reason the fighting stopped.
Wow, it's almost like the universe itself keeps providing Paul with 1001 ways to cheat on Zenith. What's with this story's tendency to spoil scummy characters?
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Old 2021-02-08, 07:47   Link #482
Tenzen12
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Well since Lillian Paul didn't cheat on her (and he did not touch Lillian afterwards anymore either) and if he cheated on her before he was much smarter about it and Paul being smart about something is practically impossible.
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Old 2021-02-08, 09:02   Link #483
frubam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
It looked like he had ample time, yeah.
And no, a Hurricane wouldn't push it, because both of them would get caught in the whirl, flying into the same direction all over again.
A directed attack on the other hand...
I dunno, I don't think he had any time at all. Imagine a video of someone throwing a blade. Based on the speed of its rotation, time slowed down because it reflects the near-instantaneous action of processing thoughts, but I doubt he even had half a second to react by the time the sword was in view before it hit him.
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Old 2021-02-08, 09:31   Link #484
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
I think Zenith definitely had expectations or at least wanted to believe Paul would be faithful otherwise she wouldn't have been as upset about what happened with Lilia as she was. She wasn't resigned, she was outright angry that he betrayed her like that.
Yes, she was angry in the moment, but she managed to accommodate herself to taking on Lilia and her child. I saw her resignation not when she first learns of the affair, but in the weeks after.

I didn't think I would like this show much after the first episode or two because of the reliance on sex jokes. Now that the script has transcended that phase, the story is much more interesting.

I think the Paul-as-protector-of-the-town role is closer to what I recall from the dialog. Whoever decided to give him this responsibility must be familiar with a side of Paul that isn't very obvious from day to day. Probably the same side that led Zenith to love him. Maybe Paul has a valiant back story.
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Old 2021-02-08, 10:47   Link #485
Frontier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Relying on Rudy can also be part of the karma.

Now, if she isn't an idiot or a vile child, the violence done to her should taught her that....
  1. Violence hurts (duh)
  2. Not everyone will tolerate her shit & the world can be a dangerous place.
  3. She is not independent out there. She needs others' help.
  4. Her action has consequences. The people that she hurt can fight back......with interest.

....and learn from that to be a better person.
I think relying on Rudy is much more karmic than the beatdown, but to each their own.

Letting Rudy stay and getting on a first-name basis definitely seems to imply she's willing to listen to him and his advice, if not wholesale change herself, but we'll see what's to come of her in future episodes...
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Wow, it's almost like the universe itself keeps providing Paul with 1001 ways to cheat on Zenith. What's with this story's tendency to spoil scummy characters?
It pays to be good looking .
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Yes, she was angry in the moment, but she managed to accommodate herself to taking on Lilia and her child. I saw her resignation not when she first learns of the affair, but in the weeks after.
Which Rudy kind of helped her to accept, because her morals were fighting with her emotions as far as whether she was okay with letting Lilia and the child stay after what happened.
Quote:
I think the Paul-as-protector-of-the-town role is closer to what I recall from the dialog. Whoever decided to give him this responsibility must be familiar with a side of Paul that isn't very obvious from day to day. Probably the same side that led Zenith to love him. Maybe Paul has a valiant back story.
It seems like Paul, Zenith, and Ghislaine were an adventuring party together. They may have accomplished a lot together before settling down (at least on Paul and Zenith's side).
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Old 2021-02-08, 12:22   Link #486
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I think the manga described it more as he's the Knight that's stationed in the town to protect it, rather than being the Lord of the town itself.

It'd make more sense with the way the villagers acted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
She was doing it so she had a reason to talk with Paul. The novel notes Rudy noticed that she was trying to hit on him, and badly at that, and the kid was getting more and more embarrassed being drug there after any minor injury to the point that was the reason the fighting stopped.
Sounds like the responsibility a Lord has over his subjects. Knights did have their sub-fiefs too, they were just substantially smaller. Here the land probably belongs to his family, and he is holding it for them.
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I think the manga described it more as he's the Knight that's stationed in the town to protect it, rather than being the Lord of the town itself.

It'd make more sense with the way the villagers acted.
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I dunno, I don't think he had any time at all. Imagine a video of someone throwing a blade. Based on the speed of its rotation, time slowed down because it reflects the near-instantaneous action of processing thoughts, but I doubt he even had half a second to react by the time the sword was in view before it hit him.
He had enough time, from the point on where it was thrown. That being said, we haven't seen Earth magic without soil in this world before, so I'll just assume that he can't do that in the air.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2021-02-08 at 12:37.
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Old 2021-02-08, 12:28   Link #487
Tenzen12
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He didn't see it from point it was thrown and when he actually got to see it he didn't immidietelly figured what's going on.
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Old 2021-02-08, 13:05   Link #488
maximilianjenus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I think the manga described it more as he's the Knight that's stationed in the town to protect it, rather than being the Lord of the town itself.

It'd make more sense with the way the villagers acted.
yeah, i remember paul being more like a security guard, and silphie's father was his coworker, the latest got totally lost in the anime. i remember there were some complaints about Paul's family immediately figuring out silphy was a girl in that arc, but actually they already knew silphie because of the work relationship.
i cant repeat this enough but i love how small details and plot points keep on coming back at later times.
as we are talking about paul, that thing in the oast had to be a crime for future plot points to work, it was not gratituous.
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Old 2021-02-08, 22:43   Link #489
Twi
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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
She's not even 10, dude. She deserve to get her ass spanked and be sent to her room without sweets not getting broken ribs and have teeth knocked out of her mouth. Also they are practically unrelated.
^ Yeah, this. Like, I'm not a fan of Tsunderes, but there's a difference between a scolding and getting beaten bloody to be humbled from a narrative point. I get that, from a standpoint, she was going to be humbled in some way and the moment she ran into people who didn't care about who her parents were or who she couldn't overpower, she promptly paid for it. But against kidnappers sends a really mixed message, because not only was that something terrifying to watch but I really wouldn't put it past the villains as portrayed in these kinds of series to actually go further. And the fact that Rudy plays on that and the fear of her being left behind to try to teach her a lesson doesn't really sit well with me either.

It felt almost like he wasn't taking it really seriously, up to making a joke about buying "dere" until he nearly got killed. I could excuse it right until she got the beating, but after that the time for joking stops.

It really messes up the tone of things.

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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
He didn't see it from point it was thrown and when he actually got to see it he didn't immidietelly figured what's going on.
He thought he won with those three fireballs, but the guy threw the sword after cutting the first two, which means he likely used his blind spot to do so and before he could react. Not to mention, considering his reaction to seeing all that blood and his own admission that he didn't consider what would happen if he died again, he was taken completely by surprise.
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Last edited by Twi; 2021-02-08 at 22:57.
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Old 2021-02-09, 01:40   Link #490
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
^ Yeah, this. Like, I'm not a fan of Tsunderes, but there's a difference between a scolding and getting beaten bloody to be humbled from a narrative point.
Scolding assumes the scolded actually has a normal sense of morals and only needs to be reminded of it. Based on the depiction I am not convinced such was present in our Lady. I'm not sure if we were watching the same show, but when I watched it though I intellectually knew Rudy was going to be fine (an advantage not available to anyone in-universe), but I still viscerally feared for Rudy's life. Such was the brutality and lack of provocation.

This is not just "Underdeveloped brain lobe" being particularly vulnerable to fits of righteous passion. This is not "a slight deficiency in long-term thinking." This is not "tsundere", which is usually executed with a "Hyperspace Mallet" , one blow, and generally against a larger man which the audience understands "can take it" (yeah, there are problems with this as well, but still).

This is a fundamental lack of appreciation of the value of other beings. Let this girl keep her hands on Rudy for another few minutes (if he actually had to incant like other people, she would have) and he'll look a lot like her after the Kidnappers had their way with her.

Frankly, I understand plot means this Lady is to be taught, but really the correct response is that this Lady cannot be entrusted with any more fighting capability than she already has.
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Old 2021-02-09, 07:30   Link #491
Chosen_Hero
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The second Rudy realized that it was all for real, he should have just dropped all pretense and focused on getting himself and her out of there safely, no matter how much of a brat she was. The fact that he kept it up and clearly wasn't taking this situation seriously is pretty fucked up and stupid on his part.

Seriously, that has to be the dumbest kidnapper ever, why would you ever almost kill your merchandise like that? Good thing he conveniently left her with someone who had learned healing magic, if not she would have most probably just bled to death right there before they could sell her off.
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Old 2021-02-09, 09:45   Link #492
Twi
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Scolding assumes the scolded actually has a normal sense of morals and only needs to be reminded of it. Based on the depiction I am not convinced such was present in our Lady. I'm not sure if we were watching the same show, but when I watched it though I intellectually knew Rudy was going to be fine (an advantage not available to anyone in-universe), but I still viscerally feared for Rudy's life. Such was the brutality and lack of provocation.

This is not just "Underdeveloped brain lobe" being particularly vulnerable to fits of righteous passion. This is not "a slight deficiency in long-term thinking." This is not "tsundere", which is usually executed with a "Hyperspace Mallet" , one blow, and generally against a larger man which the audience understands "can take it" (yeah, there are problems with this as well, but still).

This is a fundamental lack of appreciation of the value of other beings. Let this girl keep her hands on Rudy for another few minutes (if he actually had to incant like other people, she would have) and he'll look a lot like her after the Kidnappers had their way with her.

Frankly, I understand plot means this Lady is to be taught, but really the correct response is that this Lady cannot be entrusted with any more fighting capability than she already has.
Let me clarify, when I said scolding I meant she needed to be pulled off of him and actually punished by some measure for attacking Rudy. Not what she was doing was scolding, that was outright assault. But the only reason that sort of crap was allowed to happen was because the author wanted it to happen. As I explain in a recent blog post, her beating him like that and not a single person reacting by pulling her off him was excessive. The only reason it was painted as a gag was that there was no blood to indicate that she was doing him any real harm. Even Rudy didn't take it seriously with joking about a delinquent manga.

The fact that you were legitimately worried for Rudy means that you were having a more reasonable response to it because it wasn't funny. My own response was the fact that I found it stupid that it escalated to that point and no one did anything, and only served to get my mind working out how it was going to factor into the kidnapping plot that I knew was coming. The only reason it happened from my perspective is because the author needed it to work out the plot.


If that beating she gave him had been any less violent, Rudy wouldn’t need to come up with a fake kidnapping. If he didn’t come up with fake kidnapping, the servant wouldn’t take the opportunity to make it a real kidnapping. If that real kidnapping didn’t involve her getting beaten so viciously, you wouldn’t feel sympathy for her because she beat him so violently. Or in the case of some people, feel she had it coming.

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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
The second Rudy realized that it was all for real, he should have just dropped all pretense and focused on getting himself and her out of there safely, no matter how much of a brat she was. The fact that he kept it up and clearly wasn't taking this situation seriously is pretty fucked up and stupid on his part.

Seriously, that has to be the dumbest kidnapper ever, why would you ever almost kill your merchandise like that? Good thing he conveniently left her with someone who had learned healing magic, if not she would have most probably just bled to death right there before they could sell her off.

Mushoku Tensei is a product of its age and came from a webnovel where authors post their ideals, get positive reinforcement for feedback, and don't consider the deeper implications because they don't need to. The kidnapper didn't need to be bright. He just needed to play the part so that Rudy could heal her and then die. Especially when you consider he's supposed to know that she's the real prize, Rudy was just baggage who they could have legitimately killed with no consequence and were getting ready to do so by the end when it became clear they needed to show him that he can and will die again if he keeps that up and what a Sword King can do.

Also, the series is now banned in China apparently. The information seems to be misconstrued but they cite moral issues.
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Old 2021-02-09, 10:07   Link #493
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
The second Rudy realized that it was all for real, he should have just dropped all pretense and focused on getting himself and her out of there safely, no matter how much of a brat she was. The fact that he kept it up and clearly wasn't taking this situation seriously is pretty fucked up and stupid on his part.
I didn't really get the impression that he wasn't taking the situation seriously. More like he was being careful. He didn't know exactly what the situation was, how many enemies there were, whether any of them had magic, just where they were, etc. so launching a straightforward attack to try and force their way out would be a terrible idea. Even just showing his magic would get him much more thoroughly confined or beaten, reducing his capacity to deal with the situation. Also, as he himself said, if he'd healed Eris properly she'd immediately start shouting and fighting again, and suffer even worse injuries this time. You have to be creative in your escort mission when the party in question needs to be thoroughly convinced not to act in ways that will guarantee immediate failure.

As for the bandits, I'd say it depends on just what sort of condition the client wanted Eris in (in the LN it was specified that a creepy noble had his eye on her, and I believe it was implied that he was into some violent stuff, so he might not have cared if she'd been beaten up or at least could easily have her healed).
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Old 2021-02-09, 10:31   Link #494
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
The only reason it was painted as a gag was that there was no blood to indicate that she was doing him any real harm. Even Rudy didn't take it seriously with joking about a delinquent manga.
OK, I took a glance at the blog. The main difference between me and you then, is that I don't see it as a gag at all. OK, there was no blood, but that was about it. She started turning into a beast, Rudy clearly was punched so hard his wind was knocked out of him and he doesn't get up fast. B***h then went "van Diesel" on him. The spit was coming out of his mouth and he clearly was in pain and he couldn't get her off. Poor Rudy was shivering (6:39) after he escaped. The bit about the delinquent manga is because well, remember Rudy has been an otaku for the last 30 or so years of his life and that's the closest analogue he can come up with.

Maybe the light novel will soon take it a different direction, just as Steel Angels Kurumi had Karinka beat Saki to within an inch of her robo-life (including a penetrating stab to the back) and then had her join the comedy highjinks two episodes later. But right now that was the author's way of saying "This girl has some real problems. This is not funny." And frankly, I'm more on the she had it coming side. The severity of what happened to her only sufficed to take away the worst of the taste and bring her into salvageability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog
The only time Rudy seemed to clue in it wasn’t a game was when he figured out that he was about to die again.
I don't think he's thinking of it as a game. My sense is that he thought he was in control of the situation up until when the thug flung that knife at him so he decided to use the situation. To be fair to him, while there are three more blocks to go, he is a Saint-level magician with the added advantage he can skip the incantation, plus he has a bit of swordplay. Which puts him above what most people can go. As a general proposition, thugs won't have elite skills because if they had such things, they could probably wrangle themselves a decent job as a soldier, knight or mage.
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Old 2021-02-09, 10:36   Link #495
Twi
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Reddit has more details about the ban. A Youtuber-equvalent went off the deep-end but was in too high of a position and had too many fans. Ended up being a big commotion.

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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I didn't really get the impression that he wasn't taking the situation seriously. More like he was being careful. He didn't know exactly what the situation was, how many enemies there were, whether any of them had magic, just where they were, etc. so launching a straightforward attack to try and force their way out would be a terrible idea. Even just showing his magic would get him much more thoroughly confined or beaten, reducing his capacity to deal with the situation. Also, as he himself said, if he'd healed Eris properly she'd immediately start shouting and fighting again, and suffer even worse injuries this time. You have to be creative in your escort mission when the party in question needs to be thoroughly convinced not to act in ways that will guarantee immediate failure.

As for the bandits, I'd say it depends on just what sort of condition the client wanted Eris in (in the LN it was specified that a creepy noble had his eye on her, and I believe it was implied that he was into some violent stuff, so he might not have cared if she'd been beaten up or at least could easily have her healed).
That's not it. We're not talking about going in gun's blazing. He even mentions that he didn't blast them with magic because he wasn't sure how strong they were. It was how he was interacting with Eris that was the problem.

He uses that opportunity of pretending to leave her to emotionally manipulate her into wanting him to take her along is a problem. More so because the fake kidnapping was his plan that went horribly wrong and so its his responsibility. Her getting captured again and then his reasoning for refusing to let her be taken because of "dere" and knowing the plot progression is a problem. It's a tonal issue of trying to insert jokes into a serious situation, where it doesn't work and he doesn't drop it until he's about to get killed.

It might work if Rudy was actually just a 7-years old prodigy, but he's a 40-year old man in a kid's body. We kind of expect a lot more maturity, even from him, when the situation gets this serious.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
OK, I took a glance at the blog. The main difference between me and you then, is that I don't see it as a gag at all. OK, there was no blood, but that was about it. She started turning into a beast, Rudy clearly was punched so hard his wind was knocked out of him and he doesn't get up fast. B***h then went "van Diesel" on him. The spit was coming out of his mouth and he clearly was in pain and he couldn't get her off. Poor Rudy was shivering (6:39) after he escaped. The bit about the delinquent manga is because well, remember Rudy has been an otaku for the last 30 or so years of his life and that's the closest analogue he can come up with.

Maybe the light novel will soon take it a different direction, just as Steel Angels Kurumi had Karinka beat Saki to within an inch of her robo-life (including a penetrating stab to the back) and then had her join the comedy highjinks two episodes later. But right now that was the author's way of saying "This girl has some real problems. This is not funny." And frankly, I'm more on the she had it coming side. The severity of what happened to her only sufficed to take away the worst of the taste and bring her into salvageability.



I don't think he's thinking of it as a game. My sense is that he thought he was in control of the situation up until when the thug flung that knife at him so he decided to use the situation. To be fair to him, while there are three more blocks to go, he is a Saint-level magician with the added advantage he can skip the incantation, plus he has a bit of swordplay. Which puts him above what most people can go. As a general proposition, thugs won't have elite skills because if they had such things, they could probably wrangle themselves a decent job as a soldier, knight or mage.

Fair assessments, though I disagree on the "she had it coming" aspect. There are limits. A child throwing a temper tantrum against a boy two years her junior deserves a belt to her backside, not a grown-man beating her like that. Them allowing her to grow up like that and claiming it to be "willful" instead of reining that behavior in doesn't speak well enough her caretakers, but I don't know enough about them.
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Old 2021-02-09, 11:08   Link #496
~Yami~
a random Indonesian otaku
 
 
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I'm quite surprised to find out that we are still discussing about Paul rather than Eris

Spoiler for my personal take on Paul's harem scandal :):


oh Eris Greyrat.. I don't like her but her introduction is just so great That fiery cheeky spoiled ojou-sama... hahaha...
Glad that Rudeus managed to trigger the "dere" side
and Ghyslaine's sword movement is so cool

In the end, I think anime will try to be as faithful as they can.. Even manga did not dare to show the "vulgarity" that might lead to controversies (such as Roxy moment, Rudeus' past, Lillia seducing Paul, and Eris got hit so bad by the kidnapper)
The pacing is nice and I'm looking forward for next development
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Old 2021-02-09, 11:15   Link #497
Greenish Growth
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I ran across the Mushoku Tensei novel (or one of them) on syosetsu last week and the description said Rudeus was 34 years old before reincarnating.

Is 34 years old the correct figure or did they change his age later?
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Old 2021-02-09, 13:06   Link #498
Frontier
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
Fair assessments, though I disagree on the "she had it coming" aspect. There are limits. A child throwing a temper tantrum against a boy two years her junior deserves a belt to her backside, not a grown-man beating her like that. Them allowing her to grow up like that and claiming it to be "willful" instead of reining that behavior in doesn't speak well enough her caretakers, but I don't know enough about them.
Yeah, no matter her behavior I don't think getting genuinely beat up by real kidnappers was something she "deserved."

I thought it was interesting that we didn't see Eris' mother at all (who I assume is where she gets her red hair from?). I'm not sure if that impacts her behavior at all.
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Old 2021-02-09, 13:16   Link #499
AC-Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Yami~ View Post
I'm quite surprised to find out that we are still discussing about Paul rather than Eris

Spoiler for my personal take on Paul's harem scandal :):


oh Eris Greyrat.. I don't like her but her introduction is just so great That fiery cheeky spoiled ojou-sama... hahaha...
Glad that Rudeus managed to trigger the "dere" side
and Ghyslaine's sword movement is so cool

In the end, I think anime will try to be as faithful as they can.. Even manga did not dare to show the "vulgarity" that might lead to controversies (such as Roxy moment, Rudeus' past, Lillia seducing Paul, and Eris got hit so bad by the kidnapper)
The pacing is nice and I'm looking forward for next development
He probably found the right spot behind her ears. A lot of animals really like it if you pet them at the intersection between their heads and their ears. Not all though.
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Old 2021-02-09, 13:37   Link #500
Klashikari
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
The second Rudy realized that it was all for real, he should have just dropped all pretense and focused on getting himself and her out of there safely, no matter how much of a brat she was. The fact that he kept it up and clearly wasn't taking this situation seriously is pretty fucked up and stupid on his part.
I don't think keeping the pretense and not taking that situation seriously were mutually exclusive. Fact is that even if Rudeus were to focus completely on their escape, Eris wouldn't give a shit about it and would endanger both of them. Just look how she reacted the moment they managed to get out, even though she promised to lay low. Her pride is that intense to the point she only pay heed to people she actually respect (which was not the case for Rudeus at that point of time).
Now imagine if he didn't try to act as a tutor and immediately healed her. I'm certain Eris wouldn't listen to him and would try to charge through the door, leaving him no choice but to face the consequences. If anything, forcing Eris to accept her powerlessness before leaving their cell was the better choice, because otherwise, Eris was definitely going to do some stupid shit, like paying back the thug for punching her. Certainly, Rudeus could be in hot waters if the thugs managed to break through the door too early, but I reckon the risk was vastly lower than betting on Eris cooperating right from the get go.
So given the situation, Rudeus planned a proper escape from their cell with the limited time and options at his disposal. Betting on Eris' cooperation or facing the thugs recklessly not knowing their strength and numbers would have been way more perilous.
Quote:
Seriously, that has to be the dumbest kidnapper ever, why would you ever almost kill your merchandise like that? Good thing he conveniently left her with someone who had learned healing magic, if not she would have most probably just bled to death right there before they could sell her off.
Eris was badly beaten up, but she wasn't suffering from grave open wounds whatsoever so she wasn't going to bleed to death from what I can see. And I doubt any violent person like that would think twice about making a brat shut up instead of worrying about money. He was expecting enough money with Rudeus alone, so you can tell he wasn't picky and/or privy of the details.
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
He uses that opportunity of pretending to leave her to emotionally manipulate her into wanting him to take her along is a problem. More so because the fake kidnapping was his plan that went horribly wrong and so its his responsibility.
I wouldn't say it could be considered as manipulation since Eris herself knew full well that Rudeus was waiting there and expecting something. Her reaction and decision demonstrate that a plenty and the fact she didn't rant that Rudeus was trying to ditch her is also evidence that she actually understood the situation to a certain degree.

Also, you are confusing the cause and effect. The fact Rudeus planned a fake kidnapping that became a real one was not his doing, his intent and arguably not something that could be realistically expected in any stretch of imagination. It is his responsibility to save her as her future tutor but also as a "normal person", but he is not responsible for the kidnapping plan going out of control. If it wasn't for Rudeus idea, that guy from the Manor would have done something sooner or later anyway considering how he definitely had something against Eris for a long time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenish Growth View Post
I ran across the Mushoku Tensei novel (or one of them) on syosetsu last week and the description said Rudeus was 34 years old before reincarnating.

Is 34 years old the correct figure or did they change his age later?
I think it is still correct. Rudeus simply updates his age, hence why he call himself 40 years old neet since it has been 7 years after his reincarnation.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2021-02-09 at 14:13.
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