Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[TheForsaken]

They cut off the "-sama" too

[Kitsu]

"Big sister" or "Sister" would have worked as well. but I think GG Subs leaves out the suffix stuff on the whole so I don#t care if they cut out -sama

[Jan-Poo]

There are different opinions about what a translator should do in case of certain japanese words. Some think they should be left to keep some flavor of the local culture, some think that a translator shouldn't ever leave anything untranslated. So there's no way to make everyone happy. Witch Hunt has been criticized by some because they keep "san" "sama" and so on, gg is being criticized because they don't.

[maximilianjenus]

at least in the anime we always have the advantage of hearing (unless it's a dub).

Anyway, I know what's wron witha niem beatrice, they ruined her zettai ryouiki.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Marion

Rosa's letter was the same thing as Maria's letter was in the first arc, seeing as Beato said 'read this during dinner time'. They didn't re-read it again to save time.

It hasn't been read at this point in the SN either, so they didn't change anything on that mark.

[urusai]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Witch Hunt has been criticized by some because they keep "san" "sama" and so on, gg is being criticized because they don't.

And most probably by those who are incapable of doing any sort of translation themselves...

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

at least in the anime we always have the advantage of hearing (unless it's a dub).

I'd agree with that. You never know where clues are in the game, so as much as possible is left in for our translation, but in the anime, you can still hear the suffixes anyway, so you don't really lose anything.

[lubczyk]

If you're going to translate it, than do all of it. I hate, especially dubs that are lazy as hell.

A lot of anime productions don't bother doing the simple stuff like translating sempai to leader or upperclassman or whatever and Sensei to teacher or doctor. It ticked me off in the translation of Lunar Princes Tsukihime and Great Teacher Onozuka.

I, My, Me Strawberry Eggs was so lazy in that they constantly usee baa-chan when they could have grandma. Two words, close translation, easy dub, but noooooo, they couldn't even do that.

Sio if you're going to translate, then do it, not some hack job.

I also think GG fansubs of Umineko are more than adequate.

[chronotrig]

Yeah, I probably shouldn't do this, but let me step in here a second.
It's fine to say that you don't like Japanese words like those being left in, but calling it lazy is a little dubious to say the least.

A lot of anime productions don't bother doing the simple stuff like translating sempai to leader or upperclassman or whatever and Sensei to teacher or doctor.

Well...I think you've just hit on the problem. Neither of these words has a translation. They can only be interpreted based on the setting. Since Umineko is an unfinished and very twisted mystery series, no one knows very much about the setting. So removing all such words would force the translator's opinion on the reader where it doesn't need to be forced.
This can only be done accurately after the series has been completed, but even then, it would probably end up removing certain 'wrong' theories that new readers should be allowed to make.

I, My, Me Strawberry Eggs was so lazy in that they constantly usee baa-chan when they could have grandma. Two words, close translation, easy dub, but noooooo, they couldn't even do that.

Again, while Baa-chan sometimes means grandma, it doesn't always. The word is used several dozen times in the Umineko VN, and it means 'grandma' exactly 0 of those times.


Even without all of this, there is a very good reason for keeping some Japanese terms in Umineko. The whole setting for Umineko is supposed to be a mixture of Eastern and Western viewpoints (hmm, where have I heard that before...). The opening of the VN says "Welcome to Rokkenjima" in English, and English text and even titles (i.e. Madam) are used throughout the game. ...Not to mention the kind of character Kinzo is. Considering that most of the characters are Japanese, keeping Japanese terms in the translation seems only natural.

GG has been doing a very good job subbing Umineko, but even they've had some trouble with honorifics, basically being forced to ignore the reason for George's whole "don't call me sama" line. There is no way to adapt those perfectly without getting ridiculously complicated (what do you do if Shannon calls him George-san 10 scenes later?)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by phizzy

I didn't like the way gg translated 'nee-san' as 'Shannon', would've preferred them to just leave it untranslated... Geez...

Originally Posted by lubczyk

If you're going to translate it, than do all of it. I hate, especially dubs that are lazy as hell.

I think these two comments should make you get the picture. Whether you are one of those who think every japanese word must be replaced or one of those who think suffixes and the like should be kept, you need to realize that there is someone that think differently from you.

Once you understand this, you should also understand that a translator at a certain point needs to make a choice. It isn't lazyness and it isn't disrespect for the original. It's just that you can't make everyone happy so you need to choose the kind of approach you want to take.

I myself prefer translations which include suffixes, but I'm well aware that if a fansubber decides to include them is bound to get a lot of critiques.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think these two comments should make you get the picture. Whether you are one of those who think every japanese word must be replaced or one of those who think suffixes and the like should be kept, you need to realize that there is someone that think differently from you.

Once you understand this, you should also understand that a translator at a certain point needs to make a choice. It isn't lazyness and it isn't disrespect for the original. It's just that you can't make everyone happy so you need to choose the kind of approach you want to take.

I myself prefer translations which include suffixes, but I'm well aware that if a fansubber decides to include them is bound to get a lot of critiques.

I'm not complaining, just stating my opinion. I like the translation work that GG and SEACATS have done on Umineko.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

And simply put, Battler is denying that a "witch" killed the family with magic and the aim of the game is to show that "Beatrice" can't be the culprit in the human world. The meta world can just be viewed as another dimension which witches do exist but doesn't mean they actually do in the real, human world, which is the argument for Battler denying her existence.

Personally was glad to read this since Battler's stance has kind of left me feeling confused. I mean watching events unfold from the perspective that he has and still rejecting any notion of magic or witches seemed crazy to me. If that was the case Beatrice has no chance in hell since nothing short of brain washing could change his mind. But if you divide it between witches existing in that alternate reality/world and the world where the murders are happening it can make sense. I'm kind of with Battler that the killings can have human explanations, but at the same time I think magic can exist.

Regarding the episode things are definitely taking a different direction here. Have no idea what was shown to the adults but must have been something to get them all accepting Beatrice. Though not sure what this will lead to. Maybe the adults will actually try to find the gold or something.

But yeah Rosa really has the skill of blowing up on Maria. No way she's part of the kilings since taht temper wouldn't let her commit crimes that left little evidence. I can understand being frustrated, but I really don't think she'll help Maria's situation by repeatedly hitting the kid's head. I'm not sure if Maria is messed up or just suffering from some brain damage. Did give an interesting look into her mind by hearing how she rationalized her mother's outburst.

It might not mean much in the long run, but if they are going to die at least George and Shannon had one last good moment together. Forget answering the proposal later might as well make things clear before it's all over.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm not sure if Maria is messed up or just suffering from some brain damage.

My crazy theory for today: Maria's a little autistic. It would explain her obsessive behavior, incredible knowledge of occultism, and especially her tin ear for social cues.

[jeroz]

From meta-battler's point of view, the sequence of event in EP2 is merely a "what if" scenario presented by Beatrice that tries to show her involvement in the events directly.
Just because Beatrice shows a world with "herself" physically involved in the events does not always mean that she was there in EP1. It's like reconstructing a crime scene and someone decided to put up her theory and try to persuade you that it's the truth.
Beatrice's existence in the meta world is confirmed, but the appearance of the uniform Beatrice does not mean that she actually exist on Rokkenjima.

That's my take on the story so far, and why Battler shows emotions that some people calls him "stubborn".

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

A lot of anime productions don't bother doing the simple stuff like translating sempai to leader or upperclassman or whatever and Sensei to teacher or doctor. It ticked me off in the translation of Lunar Princes Tsukihime and Great Teacher Onozuka..

Another problem is if the translator knows the given project in its entireity first hand.

For example in Higurashi, the Dr. Irie was referred to by Mion and Rena as "kantoku." Now "kantoku" can mean two different job descriptions in Japanese: it can mean director (as in overseer of an establishment) or a coach (of a baseball team). Japanese wordplay was possible because Keiichi mistook "kantoku" as the former than the latter in Onikakushi. We later learn that Dr. Irie is really a coach for the local little league team.

Now how would a translator who has never heard of Higurashi, never played the game, supposed to translate that? Do they leave it "director" or as "coach" or leave it "kantoku" as it is? There in lies the dillemma.

We all know that Dr. Irie is a part time little league coach because we saw the anime already. But flash forward back to the time when no one knew about Higurashi except a few people like me. How are fansubbers going to translate something that they don't know about?

Supposed they translate it as "director." Later on, when the episode showing that Dr. Irie is really a "kantoku" for the local little league team, it won't make sense. Suddenly the translated text will change to "coach" and people won't get it without adding a footnote that "kantoku" was a wordplay for "director" and "coach." People will say the fansubbers screwed up big time.

Supposed someone who knows Higurashi did the translation, so they translate it as "coach." Now it won't make sense in Onikakushi. It will make sense later on the series, but now it's practically a spoiler as well. Waa!

And let's say if one leaves it as just "kantoku." Then they'll be people like you who complain that why didn't they translate this to English.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible

My crazy theory for today: Maria's a little autistic. It would explain her obsessive behavior, incredible knowledge of occultism, and especially her tin ear for social cues.

I don't think that's crazy at all. I have first-hand experience with two people diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome of autism (genuinely diagnosed, not the common self-diagnosis based on stuff read online), and Maria's behavior matches with it very well. If you hadn't suggested it, I would have.

I wonder what would happen if someone told Maria that one of the things that summons the "Bad Witch" is Maria talking about occult stuff. Would that actually convince Maria to stop talking about that stuff around Rosa?

[Proto]

@kj1980: The only comprehensive solution to satisfy all parts would be to rely on the use of translator notes but given the Japanese (as a language) tendence to have double and triple meanings everywhere it becomes a never ending game if you ask me... unfortunately there is no definite solution here, so you will always have someone complaining.

[risingstar3110]

Guys i'm a bit confused now....

Can any1 explain this so things can make a little more sense? Or is this support to be how the audience would feel when reach up to this point?

In Ep I, the mystery murder, and the thought of whether human or Beatrice was the culprit kept me closely to follow the story. But since ep II, they sacrificed all those mysteries with the constant appearance of the witch Beatrice who can drink tea, eat snack, control people actions and appear out of thin air. There is no way that Beatrice can't affect the outcome of the world with her power.
Then now she acts as an chess piece, who wear short skirt, can make stuffs into butterfly and make butterfly into candy, once again it's impossible for her to not have some sort of magic (even when we can argue that this person is not Beatrice but just some chess piece to trick Meta-Battler). But if someone have magic and admit to be a witch, then how can Battler say witch does not exist?

So atm the mystery elements of Umineko(accumulated of the whole EP I) were lost unless:
- the mystery behind Umineko is not about the mystery behind Rokkenjima Incident, but something have not yet appeared (or we can say Ep 1 is just an introduction for a full-scale witch war in the future, perhaps)
- ....or only the first world didn't have the involvement of Beatrice's power. Every world after that showed different events (altered by Beatrice who have some power now) to trick and throw audience+Meta-Battler speculations out of windows, while give us more clues to "guess" what really happened in the first world.
For example in Ep II, we have Beatrice(fake or not) gave Rosa the letter to read during dinner, make all of us expected Beatrice also gave Maria the letter in Ep I, tricked us to think that Beatrice existed since Ep 1 and leads to the death of all those people.

PS: if i have to guess now who is the human culprit, i will say it's Rosa.....

Edit: with all these messes, i don't know what roles the nipa~ sadist and Lady Lambda gonna play in this chess game.... (the former can guess, the later have no idea)

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Guys i'm a bit confused now....

Can any1 explain this so things can make a little more sense? Or is this support to be how the audience would feel when reach up to this point?

In Ep I, the mystery murder, and the thought of whether human or Beatrice was the culprit kept me closely to follow the story. But they sacrificed all those mysteries with the constant appearance of the witch Beatrice who can drink tea, eat snack control people actions and appear out of thin air, there is no way that Beatrice can't affect the outcome of the world. Then now she acts as an chess piece, who wear short skirt, can make stuffs into butterfly and make butterfly into candy, once again it's impossible for her to not have some sort of magic (even when we can argue that this person is not Beatrice but just some chess piece to trick Meta-Battler). But if someone have magic and admit to be a witch, then how can Battler say witch does not exist?

So atm the mystery elements of Umineko(accumulated of the whole EP I) were lost unless:
- the mystery behind Umineko is not about the mystery behind Rokkenjima Incident, but something have not yet appeared (or we can say Ep 1 is just an introduction for a full-scale witch war in the future, perhaps)
- ....or only the first world didn't have the involvement of Beatrice's power. Every world after that showed different events (altered by Beatrice who have some power now) to trick and throw audience+Meta-Battler speculations out of windows, while give us more clues to "guess" what really happened in the first world.
For example in Ep II, we have Beatrice(fake or not) gave Rosa the letter to read during dinner, make all of us expected Beatrice also gave Maria the letter in Ep I, tricked us to think that Beatrice existed since Ep 1 and leads to the death of all those people.

Edit: if i have to guess now who is the human culprit, i will say it's Rosa.....

Beatrice does not make a reliable appearance in Ep1 until the very end after Natsuhi is dead. Where the anime is now is the second arc so it's a whole different... game, as MetaBeatrice herself suggests.

First off, what we are sure off is that what she is doing looks like magic, but as the cliche goes not everything that glitters is gold. It may look like magic to the characters and from the viewer's POV, but looking like magic does not mean it IS magic. It could be magic, it could not be magic, and no one is sure which is which. Neither the anime-only viewers nor the VN players know what the answer to this is, and as Battler himself alludes to, the existence of magic as the reason behind the events of Rokkenjima is the central point of contention between him and Beatrice.

This may or may not be a sufficient explanation but I'm teetoing the line of spoilerisms here, so if you need a better one send me a PM.

[MarthX]

Your reactions are normal for this point in time.

You don't know what's going on, you're unsure how the series is still a mystery. It's a complete mindscrew. It's best not to ask any questions and enjoy the ride. Everything will make more sense as the series progresses.