AnimeSuki Forums

Koenig · 2004-01-18, 16:26

We here all know that anime is not made for young children. A lot of anime contain physical and emotional violence, as well as being often amoral (amoral - devoid of morality - , not immoral). So people think anime is all "daft japanese violent cartoons" (not even mentioning "porn").

My point is, what about "western" cartoons like Tom & Jerry ? That show is one of the sickest animated series I ever saw, seriously ! It's completely devoid of morality, Tom often suffers from gratuitous abuse from Jerry, and gets his arse kicked even if he'd done nothing bad. It's violent : plenty of blood squirting, bodily harm, mental torture - Tom often gets put in impossible situations by the house mistress, and Jerry just takes advantage of that and abuses him - you name it !
For kids just like adults its obvious it's just meant to be comical and not taken too seriously, and parents see no problem at all with having their children watching it, even though the show wasn't originally intended for kids at all (it was shown in movie theaters, as a short amusement).

Does any moralistic parent think Tom and Jerry is unsuitable for their kids ?
I don't think so. Hey, I used to watch it really often at a rather low age (6 or 7) on Cartoon Network !

How come the amount of violence in japanese animation and american animation was never compared, in our marvellous political-corectness-aware societies ? And where does this cliché of japanimation being "violent" come from anyway ??

Further thinking : has the gratuitous violence and amorality of Tom and Jerry ever turned a kid in a serial killer ? I agree that some shows in general (not just animation) aren't suitable for kids simply because they wouldn't understand them (like FLCL or Jin-Roh), but isn't the negative effect of violence on children overrarted and overhyped ?

What are your opinions about this ??

7thMethuselah · 2004-01-18, 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koenig

We here all know that anime is not made for young children. A lot of anime contain physical and emotional violence, as well as being often amoral (amoral - devoid of morality - , not immoral). So people think anime is all "daft japanese violent cartoons" (not even mentioning "porn").

Well first it depends on the series wether or not there is alot of violence/sex/... in it, shows like scrapped princess are pretty harmless, while stuff like ikkitousen is really not mentioned for kids. One of the problems is that most people do not know there are as many genres in anime as there are in movies or tv shows, all they know is that some series have violence and sex thus in their eyes all series have it. I experienced that when exposed to more anime many people start to realise that not all anime is "bad" and that most anime is actually quite enjoyable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koenig

My point is, what about "western" cartoons like Tom & Jerry ? That show is one of the sickest animated series I ever saw, seriously ! It's completely devoid of morality, Tom often suffers from gratuitous abuse from Jerry, and gets his arse kicked even if he'd done nothing bad. It's violent : plenty of blood squirting, bodily harm, mental torture - Tom often gets put in impossible situations by the house mistress, and Jerry just takes advantage of that and abuses him - you name it !
For kids just like adults its obvious it's just meant to be comical and not taken too seriously, and parents see no problem at all with having their children watching it, even though the show wasn't originally intended for kids at all (it was shown in movie theaters, as a short amusement).

One of the problems with anime compared to Tom and Jerry (imo the most violent show ever) is that alot of the violence is not bloodless. Also the cat and mouse thing makes it feel like it's a reality far away compared to anime where even alien/mecha/... character closely resemble humans thus making the violence alot more real. Again parents should expose their children to anime which was inteded for their age or be there to consult them (but hey what the hell do I know I don't have any kids

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koenig

Further thinking : has the gratuitous violence and amorality of Tom and Jerry ever turned a kid in a serial killer ? I agree that some shows in general (not just animation) aren't suitable for kids simply because they wouldn't understand them (like FLCL or Jin-Roh), but isn't the negative effect of violence on children overrarted and overhyped ?

The fact is that there is alot of violence on tv (turn on the 7 o'clock news and you'll know what i'm talking about) so the anime in such can't be blamed. For some weird reason people often prefer violence and action shows over anything on tv. Any advertiser knows that violence and sex sell quite good and get high ratings so they'll keep showing. Parents and other "moral" groups usually focus on one item (it being rock groups, anime, or whatever) saying it's the cause of everything while in fact its often society in general which causes it ...

Anyway just some random toughts, after drinking one beer too many so don't come shooting me over these

Kamui4356 · 2004-01-18, 17:51

I think the kind of violence shown in older American cartoon, like Tom and Jerry, is far worse than anything shown in anime. The violence being more realistic makes it less likely that a kid goes out and does the same thing. If an anime character gets shot, they either die or get injured, unless they have some kind of power. The other characters react to this, similar to how one would react in real life(or at least close enough to show that what happened wasn't good

). In Tom and Jerry the worst that happens is they get the fur blown off their face, which is back in the next scene anyway. The characters take pleasure in accidental pain of the other. Worse, they then proceed to infilct pain on the other and take pleasure in that. There really isn't anything to show that violence leads to negative consequences.
People who complain anime is too violent have probably not seen any besides a few clips of the most violent scenes from older movies like Akira and Ninja Scroll taken out of context. If they would watch more, I'm sure they'd change their minds.

Lambda · 2004-01-18, 17:56

I think the key consideration here is association with reality. If you take some incredibly bloody anime, and look at what it is in the simplest possible form, all it is is a load of red ink. (Or pixels.) It's the association with reality that our brain performs when we watch it which makes it violent. If this sort of association doesn't happen, it's just watching a lot of red blobs. Of course, the reality is usually somewhere in between these extremes, we give it a certain degree of reality when watching it, but not as much as we would if it was happening right in front of us.

Hence classifying screen violence isn't about what is strictly depicted, it's about what thoughts and feelings we end up with when we watch it, which, depending on the watcher and the situation could range from absolutely nothing, to as if it was happening to me.

In the case of Tom and Jerry, the argument for it being suitable for young children would be that both its setting and its presentation act strongly to prevent any significant association of it with reality in the mind of the viewer. That it is ultimately "just a load of funny pictures", and so, not really violent, because it doesn't communicate to that sort of violence in the mind of the viewer. Whereas present the same sort of violence seriously and realistically with blood, and association with reality becomes far easier and you get much stronger such associations, resulting in something that is completely different and is really violent, because that's how it ends up in the minds of the viewers.

Whether or not this actually accurately reflects what is going on in a child's mind is, however, something I can only guess at. The only thing I am certain of is that it is absolutely essential to consider the context along with the actions themselves. The way this context actually affects things is far harder to judge.

Lambda · 2004-01-18, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

I think the kind of violence shown in older American cartoon, like Tom and Jerry, is far worse than anything shown in anime. The violence being more realistic makes it less likely that a kid goes out and does the same thing. If an anime character gets shot, they either die or get injured, unless they have some kind of power. The other characters react to this, similar to how one would react in real life(or at least close enough to show that what happened wasn't good

). In Tom and Jerry the worst that happens is they get the fur blown off their face, which is back in the next scene anyway. The characters take pleasure in accidental pain of the other. Worse, they then proceed to infilct pain on the other and take pleasure in that. There really isn't anything to show that violence leads to negative consequences.

I have a great deal of sympathy towards that point of view. It reminds me of the dichotomy between two competing shows on British TV in the mid-80's; Doctor Who and the A-Team. Doctor Who attracted loads of criticism at the time for featuring realistic strong violence in a programme aimed at children, but it had a hero who avoided using violence unless absolutely necessary, and taught that if you use violence it hurts people, sometimes kills people, and generally is a bad thing which messes things up. Whereas the A-Team's message of "the Good Guys spray bullets around absolutely everywhere, don't worry, this sort of thing never hurts anyone" was generally considered perfectly acceptable. The trouble is, anti-violence pushes are usually led by reactionaries, who by definition don't even think about what they're reacting to, and so don't consider important details like "what the violence is actually doing." It doesn't mean we should take a "laissez faire" approach to the subject of course, but we do need to think very carefully about what precisely the problems are. The answer to which is a lot more complex than simply "violence."

Leo_Otaku · 2004-01-18, 18:15

I know what you mean. The same thing is with Waner Brothers. They use TNT, guns and so forth in anime on TV like digimon they took out the gun and so on. People see anime as sick violence or little kids shows. I mean there is tuff in between it isn't all pokemon and DBZ...ppl who think that r just making themselves look stupid.

pathyfinder · 2004-01-18, 19:40

I agree with Kamuri4356 in that TOM AND JERRY is terrible and it's sick how they take pleasure in the pain they inflict on each other.... truely sick!

I'm in my mid 30's and have teen girls. They were allowed to watch decent shows growing up but T & J is not one of them. I LOVE cats and always wanted that sassy ass mouse to get eaten. Sorry people, but it's what a cat is to do. Crap, even Walt Disney was afriad of mice

I also always wanted tweetie bird. to get eaten by Slyvester the cat. I always wanted the bull dog to leave the cat alone, but having grown up on a farm I know that our cats always ruled the dogs we had, and they would rule a bull dog also. But the dog mainly just scared the cat. None the less I and my kids hate T & J always have.

Life can be harsh but teaching kids how to DEAL with life is better then hiding them from it. Granted you don't want a 8 year old learning some words, but chances are they heard them already at school. As a parent you teach them what the word means, how peopel are affected and why the word(s) shouldn't be used again.

Parents have to educate their kids by sitting down and spending time with them not HIDING them from "bad stuff". It's part of life and some day it will have to be dealt with and then what will the kid have to pull from? Obviously if a kid lives in a house where there is violence and bad words flying, they will use it often, but playing a game alone for hours in a home alone is bad, but not because it's the violent game, it's because the kids is ALONE IN THE HOME FOR HOURS with no one to share life with. How are kids to value life if their life sucks because it's lonely and they get the idea they are not important ?????

I think I tossed my cookies the first time I saw a movie where a man got shot and the blood poured and splattered. (My sisters had similar experiences when I mentioned this to them-uhm... yes, I was in my 20's when I saw this also) My kids are tougher and have a better stomach than I for this stuff, but I've also worked a few years in a Emergency Room in a Hospital also, but there I was to help people, not hurt them. I eventually changed my carreer as I couldn't stomach day to day the amount of abuse I saw coming in the hospital. I hated seeing little kids even babies that had been abused by the people that they trusted to take care of them over and over again.

those people didn't hurt their kids because of tom and jerry, but because they never learned how to handle stress, and they took it out on a little helpless child.

This is life, and from what I see a lot of anime may have adult themes but for the most part they kill or defend for a reason other than "just because".

Parents have to educate their kids and not rely upon others to protect their child when it is their own JOB

(lazy lazy parent) By the way I'm a very conservative Christian also, as are my kids, but they also watch Anime and Harry Potter and are smart enough to tell the difference betwen real life and fun imagination.

Koenig · 2004-01-19, 09:11

Thank you for your feedback everyone

I have to agree with you to a certain point Lambda. However what "shocked" me the most (can't say I was traumatized either, shocked is too strong a word) int Tom and Jerry, and Tweetie and Sylvester for that matter, was not so much the physical violence dealt to the cat, but really the frame of mind and message that come across the screen. Basically, it's telling you over and over again that in life, for certain people, however hard they try, whatever they do, they will ALWAYS end up hopelessly being in the wrong and get punished for it. Hardly a healthy thing to teach children, is it ?

EDIT : The same thing applies to the Coyote trying to catch the Road Runner. However I don't think it's comparable because the Coyote only gets hurt and fails because he's such an idiot and thus only has himself to blame, and you can't really say the road-runner abuses him either

For my part I strongly believe the opposite : if you move your bum and DO something in life, you may suffer backdraws sometimes but in the end you will achieve something for yourself and become a richer person (not necesseraly in the monetary sense).

I know that show is not meant to be taken seriously at all, I know it was not meant for kids, but that kind of message seeps through nonetheless to a receptive audience, and children are much more receptive to that kind of stuff than adults, especially if they're insecure and/or depressed

btw Lambda from which anime does your avatar come from ?

Joe Dalton · 2004-01-19, 10:24

actualy there are 2 episodes where tom beats jerry.... these are also the funniest.
1 is where tom tries to sleep and jerry constantly puts him in positions where it looks as if tom is trying to kill himself in his sleep and is scared as hell.
It ends with tom comming up with a gun and locking jerry up in a bottle.
2 is where jerry and a little duck kick toms ass and fly away to some tropical place and suddenly tom shows up on the beach and lowers a shade over them while grinning evily

u&t · 2004-01-19, 11:49

Tom & Jerry is relatively tame compared to some newer stuff. Best example I can come up with is a french show. The ultra violent and sometimes totally hillarious "Oggy and the cockroaches". Everyone should watch that one.

Anyway I don't see the usefullness of subjects like these. Kids over the age of 4 have about the same perception capabilities as adults. They're really, really good at telling the difference between fake and reality. Sadly most adults doesn't seem to get this.
Btw thats why you should try to keep kids away from news imagery as much as possible. They know THAT stuff is for real but they haven't learned to not empathize with victims like we have.

Lambda · 2004-01-19, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koenig

I have to agree with you to a certain point Lambda. However what "shocked" me the most (can't say I was traumatized either, shocked is too strong a word) int Tom and Jerry, and Tweetie and Sylvester for that matter, was not so much the physical violence dealt to the cat, but really the frame of mind and message that come across the screen. Basically, it's telling you over and over again that in life, for certain people, however hard they try, whatever they do, they will ALWAYS end up hopelessly being in the wrong and get punished for it. Hardly a healthy thing to teach children, is it ?

Hmm, I don't think that target audience are very likely to pick that message up. The basic idea behind Tom and Jerry does seem to be that the child identifies with Jerry and enjoys that sort of cruelty, in the way that only children (or adults temporarily thinking like children) do, having not yet developed the capability to feel empathy for "the other." A kind of more interesting version of pouring boiling water down an anthill. It's effective entertainment, crude, certainly, but is enjoying this sort of thing really harmful for a child? Well, I'd have to be a child psychologist to give a confident answer, but the intuitive one would seem to be "no", since enjoying this sort of thing is a direct result of their stage of development, it's such a natural thing for them to like, you would expect evolution to have catered for it. It's a sort of innocence in a way, not yet really feeling as if other people (ie. not the one you're currently identifying with) have feelings like yours too. The point being that the cat isn't really seen as a person by them.

If one did start to pick up the sort of message you describe, I would have thought they wouldn't want to watch it any more anyway.

But this seems a topic in which understanding the differences between adults and young children is particularly important, and I don't have too much knowledge about that.

Quote:

btw Lambda from which anime does your avatar come from ?

Serial Experiments Lain. (The piece of artwork I cropped it from doesn't really reflect the superficial tone of the anime, although I think it does represent what's really going on quite well.)

pathyfinder · 2004-01-19, 13:08

seriously always wondered why the Coyote didn't just order in a freezer full of butchered chickens or road runners. Why spend time and money on weapons when you could of just ordered in what you wanted?

but that's my thinking

I liked the road runner and no matter how HE thought he had every aspect well thought out and covered (like when he tried one, two, three, and four times on the same move) he was always outsmarted or outwitted or just had the plain dumb luck of being outdone by the smart assed road runner.... this pretty much rings true in REAL WORLD work and life

I also can't watch "itchy & Scratchy" on the simpsons... people have to tell me when it's "safe" to look again. I can't remove myself from something not feeling pain ever.

On another Note I get a kick out of "protective parents" seeing as they THINK their kids are not watching or hearing this or that, but the kids do hear this and that at their friends house, on the street, and anywhere else the parents are not around... they are so unaware of what their kids are exposed to and rather be lazy and have rules and ban stuff instead of just do a little work and explain and talk to their kids. Kids are not dumb!

Sailordareone2300 · 2004-01-19, 13:09

Let them watch it i don't care
Parents are lazy and most of dumb as hell
If they would get off the ass once in a while and do their job we wouldn't be talking about it
i was rised with spankings and the belt it didn't hurt me
I did stuff that was bad like tell my teacher to F**K oFF and i got hit
But i never did that again It should go back to the old days
Parents did their job and not the tv

SwiftStar · 2004-01-19, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pathyfinder

I LOVE cats and always wanted that sassy ass mouse to get eaten. Sorry people, but it's what a cat is to do.

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you.

Cats are the good guys. Mice are the bad guys. Mice keep you up at night, ruin food and are generally a nuisance. I used to watch that show when I was younger always hoping that that damn mouse would get what was coming to him. I hated that cartoon. I finally had to stop watching because my mother couldnt understand what was making me so upset.

I hated that damn mouse... ahem.

As far as the topic goes. Yeah, the older american cartoons are more violent than anything. I dont think any of them had any other theme than one character trying to kill, annoy or do grievious harm to the other. When I got a little older my favorite cartoons were G.I. Joe, Transformers, Battle of the Planets, Robotech. Wars and battles where both sides ae seriously trying to kill each other. For anime to get a bad rap with the american stuff that has been churned out is silly. As always, it is up to the parents to explain the difference between reality and fiction. As long as that is done the kids can watch anything that isnt out and out disturbing and they should be fine.

Damn mouse.

Koenig · 2004-01-19, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambda

Hmm, I don't think that target audience are very likely to pick that message up. The basic idea behind Tom and Jerry does seem to be that the child identifies with Jerry and enjoys that sort of cruelty, in the way that only children (or adults temporarily thinking like children) do, having not yet developed the capability to feel empathy for "the other." A kind of more interesting version of pouring boiling water down an anthill. It's effective entertainment, crude, certainly, but is enjoying this sort of thing really harmful for a child? Well, I'd have to be a child psychologist to give a confident answer, but the intuitive one would seem to be "no", since enjoying this sort of thing is a direct result of their stage of development, it's such a natural thing for them to like, you would expect evolution to have catered for it. It's a sort of innocence in a way, not yet really feeling as if other people (ie. not the one you're currently identifying with) have feelings like yours too. The point being that the cat isn't really seen as a person by them.

If one did start to pick up the sort of message you describe, I would have thought they wouldn't want to watch it any more anyway.

In all honesty, I couldn't agree with you more ! We all did cruel "experiments" on bugs as kids like kicking anthills to see "how it looked inside", ripping wings of a fly, etc... Doesn't stop most kids to turn into sensible people

Can't tell as much about the more emotionally vulnerable children (the ones who have been mistreated and abused), but I'm no child psychologist either

However that's not answering my questions about the perception of violence (and death) in our western societies

(sorry to be so blunt and rude, especially since what you post is very interesting).

SwiftStar · 2004-01-19, 15:39

You know it's kind of hard to give you a well thought out, intelligent answer with that icon of yours bouncing around.

hentai_wolf · 2004-01-19, 15:53

Keep in mind that most of the violent American cartoons were made many decades ago. Tom and Jerry was from the 60's and 70's (and the later ones had them as friends). There was a great deal of criticism about Tom and Jerry ever after it went into syndication. There's a reason the Simpsons' parody of children's cartoons is a cat and a mouse.

Most Warner Bros. cartoons are from even earlier, going all the way back to the 30's and maybe even 20's. I always thought it was funny growing up seeing how they kept censoring the Bugs Bunny cartoons more and more. Anytime there was gunfire it cut to a stillframe of another character. Of course the first thing to get censored out was all the cigarette jokes. I didn't even realize they had removed them until I saw the laserdiscs. I'm not sure how much censoring Cartoon Network does though.

If you watch American children's cartoons that have been made in the last five years, you'll probably never seen a gun. You probably won't see any blood or death. There has always been a great deal of pressure on the makers of children's programming in America by both parents are various groups. It finally killed Saturday morning cartoons (although I'm sure cable helped). American children's cartoons today always feel somewhat neutered.

Also of note is that what most parents don't like to see are things that children can imitate. It's unlikely that a child is going to jump out an airlock, but they might jump off the roof. At least that's what parents think. That's why very cartoony violence is accepted a lot more than realistic violence. Parents are worried that their kids will imitate the cartoon. Whether this is a valid concern or not, I don't really know.

Joe Dalton · 2004-01-19, 16:03

personaly i liek cant and mice but i still rooted for tom to win.
And no not all people did sick experiments on animals =/

Lambda · 2004-01-19, 17:05

OK, perception in our society. Well, the important area is the perception of the complainers (or as I like to call them, people who don't know how to turn a television off), since they're the ones who set the tone for the debates within society which drive cultural perceptions. (And since culture tells almost everyone how to think, cultural perceptions and those of society are more or less equivalent.) From my (albeit limited) experience of observing such people, the most important factor is that it's never about violence alone. Violence doesn't have any significance on its own, it needs to be given a meaning from somewhere. And so the complaints always have a social, political or religious basis. (Also, since they don't tend to be completely logical in nature, they are heavily influenced by cultural considerations such as whether something is "new" or not.) Unfortunately there are a wide variety of such possible motivations, but the unifying factor across much of it seems to me to be one of preserving illusions. People want to believe the world is a nice place, that's far more pleasant, and they also tend to believe that children should hold a sanitised view of the world. And so anything that makes the comfortable illusions of children or adults difficult to maintain becomes a threat, and must be dealt with. (This is also the process behind the vast majority of religious bigotry.) Thus those parts of the media which are labelled as "violent" tend to be those which actually contain negative statements about the state of the world.

Tom and Jerry and the like portray a world heavily divorced from reality, so such objections are hard to find. The greater realism of anime means violence in it is more likely to induce feelings about problems in the real world, thus making such objections far more common. And then there's blood. It's not seen in (most) Western animation, so blood in animation is new. And so attracts attention, attracting criticism by those cultural considerations I mentioned earlier.

N.B. This is mostly based on observing specifically British culture.

2004-01-18, 16:26	Link #1
Koenig looking for a bento box Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: France	Not suitable for kids - Violence We here all know that anime is not made for young children. A lot of anime contain physical and emotional violence, as well as being often amoral (amoral - devoid of morality - , not immoral). So people think anime is all "daft japanese violent cartoons" (not even mentioning "porn"). My point is, what about "western" cartoons like Tom & Jerry ? That show is one of the sickest animated series I ever saw, seriously ! It's completely devoid of morality, Tom often suffers from gratuitous abuse from Jerry, and gets his arse kicked even if he'd done nothing bad. It's violent : plenty of blood squirting, bodily harm, mental torture - Tom often gets put in impossible situations by the house mistress, and Jerry just takes advantage of that and abuses him - you name it ! For kids just like adults its obvious it's just meant to be comical and not taken too seriously, and parents see no problem at all with having their children watching it, even though the show wasn't originally intended for kids at all (it was shown in movie theaters, as a short amusement). Does any moralistic parent think Tom and Jerry is unsuitable for their kids ? I don't think so. Hey, I used to watch it really often at a rather low age (6 or 7) on Cartoon Network ! How come the amount of violence in japanese animation and american animation was never compared, in our marvellous political-corectness-aware societies ? And where does this cliché of japanimation being "violent" come from anyway ?? Further thinking : has the gratuitous violence and amorality of Tom and Jerry ever turned a kid in a serial killer ? I agree that some shows in general (not just animation) aren't suitable for kids simply because they wouldn't understand them (like FLCL or Jin-Roh), but isn't the negative effect of violence on children overrarted and overhyped ? What are your opinions about this ??

2004-01-18, 17:51	Link #3
Kamui4356 Aria Company Join Date: Nov 2003	I think the kind of violence shown in older American cartoon, like Tom and Jerry, is far worse than anything shown in anime. The violence being more realistic makes it less likely that a kid goes out and does the same thing. If an anime character gets shot, they either die or get injured, unless they have some kind of power. The other characters react to this, similar to how one would react in real life(or at least close enough to show that what happened wasn't good ). In Tom and Jerry the worst that happens is they get the fur blown off their face, which is back in the next scene anyway. The characters take pleasure in accidental pain of the other. Worse, they then proceed to infilct pain on the other and take pleasure in that. There really isn't anything to show that violence leads to negative consequences. People who complain anime is too violent have probably not seen any besides a few clips of the most violent scenes from older movies like Akira and Ninja Scroll taken out of context. If they would watch more, I'm sure they'd change their minds. __________________

2004-01-18, 17:56	Link #4
Lambda Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Age: 44	I think the key consideration here is association with reality. If you take some incredibly bloody anime, and look at what it is in the simplest possible form, all it is is a load of red ink. (Or pixels.) It's the association with reality that our brain performs when we watch it which makes it violent. If this sort of association doesn't happen, it's just watching a lot of red blobs. Of course, the reality is usually somewhere in between these extremes, we give it a certain degree of reality when watching it, but not as much as we would if it was happening right in front of us. Hence classifying screen violence isn't about what is strictly depicted, it's about what thoughts and feelings we end up with when we watch it, which, depending on the watcher and the situation could range from absolutely nothing, to as if it was happening to me. In the case of Tom and Jerry, the argument for it being suitable for young children would be that both its setting and its presentation act strongly to prevent any significant association of it with reality in the mind of the viewer. That it is ultimately "just a load of funny pictures", and so, not really violent, because it doesn't communicate to that sort of violence in the mind of the viewer. Whereas present the same sort of violence seriously and realistically with blood, and association with reality becomes far easier and you get much stronger such associations, resulting in something that is completely different and is really violent, because that's how it ends up in the minds of the viewers. Whether or not this actually accurately reflects what is going on in a child's mind is, however, something I can only guess at. The only thing I am certain of is that it is absolutely essential to consider the context along with the actions themselves. The way this context actually affects things is far harder to judge.

2004-01-18, 18:15	Link #6
Leo_Otaku Rewrite of the Life Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Age: 37	I know what you mean. The same thing is with Waner Brothers. They use TNT, guns and so forth in anime on TV like digimon they took out the gun and so on. People see anime as sick violence or little kids shows. I mean there is tuff in between it isn't all pokemon and DBZ...ppl who think that r just making themselves look stupid.

2004-01-18, 19:40	Link #7
pathyfinder Terabyte needs anime! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Columbus, Ohio	I agree with Kamuri4356 in that TOM AND JERRY is terrible and it's sick how they take pleasure in the pain they inflict on each other.... truely sick! I'm in my mid 30's and have teen girls. They were allowed to watch decent shows growing up but T & J is not one of them. I LOVE cats and always wanted that sassy ass mouse to get eaten. Sorry people, but it's what a cat is to do. Crap, even Walt Disney was afriad of mice I also always wanted tweetie bird. to get eaten by Slyvester the cat. I always wanted the bull dog to leave the cat alone, but having grown up on a farm I know that our cats always ruled the dogs we had, and they would rule a bull dog also. But the dog mainly just scared the cat. None the less I and my kids hate T & J always have. Life can be harsh but teaching kids how to DEAL with life is better then hiding them from it. Granted you don't want a 8 year old learning some words, but chances are they heard them already at school. As a parent you teach them what the word means, how peopel are affected and why the word(s) shouldn't be used again. Parents have to educate their kids by sitting down and spending time with them not HIDING them from "bad stuff". It's part of life and some day it will have to be dealt with and then what will the kid have to pull from? Obviously if a kid lives in a house where there is violence and bad words flying, they will use it often, but playing a game alone for hours in a home alone is bad, but not because it's the violent game, it's because the kids is ALONE IN THE HOME FOR HOURS with no one to share life with. How are kids to value life if their life sucks because it's lonely and they get the idea they are not important ????? I think I tossed my cookies the first time I saw a movie where a man got shot and the blood poured and splattered. (My sisters had similar experiences when I mentioned this to them-uhm... yes, I was in my 20's when I saw this also) My kids are tougher and have a better stomach than I for this stuff, but I've also worked a few years in a Emergency Room in a Hospital also, but there I was to help people, not hurt them. I eventually changed my carreer as I couldn't stomach day to day the amount of abuse I saw coming in the hospital. I hated seeing little kids even babies that had been abused by the people that they trusted to take care of them over and over again. those people didn't hurt their kids because of tom and jerry, but because they never learned how to handle stress, and they took it out on a little helpless child. This is life, and from what I see a lot of anime may have adult themes but for the most part they kill or defend for a reason other than "just because". Parents have to educate their kids and not rely upon others to protect their child when it is their own JOB (lazy lazy parent) By the way I'm a very conservative Christian also, as are my kids, but they also watch Anime and Harry Potter and are smart enough to tell the difference betwen real life and fun imagination.

2004-01-19, 09:11	Link #8
Koenig looking for a bento box Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: France	Thank you for your feedback everyone I have to agree with you to a certain point Lambda. However what "shocked" me the most (can't say I was traumatized either, shocked is too strong a word) int Tom and Jerry, and Tweetie and Sylvester for that matter, was not so much the physical violence dealt to the cat, but really the frame of mind and message that come across the screen. Basically, it's telling you over and over again that in life, for certain people, however hard they try, whatever they do, they will ALWAYS end up hopelessly being in the wrong and get punished for it. Hardly a healthy thing to teach children, is it ? EDIT : The same thing applies to the Coyote trying to catch the Road Runner. However I don't think it's comparable because the Coyote only gets hurt and fails because he's such an idiot and thus only has himself to blame, and you can't really say the road-runner abuses him either For my part I strongly believe the opposite : if you move your bum and DO something in life, you may suffer backdraws sometimes but in the end you will achieve something for yourself and become a richer person (not necesseraly in the monetary sense). I know that show is not meant to be taken seriously at all, I know it was not meant for kids, but that kind of message seeps through nonetheless to a receptive audience, and children are much more receptive to that kind of stuff than adults, especially if they're insecure and/or depressed btw Lambda from which anime does your avatar come from ?

2004-01-19, 10:24	Link #9
Joe Dalton Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003	actualy there are 2 episodes where tom beats jerry.... these are also the funniest. 1 is where tom tries to sleep and jerry constantly puts him in positions where it looks as if tom is trying to kill himself in his sleep and is scared as hell. It ends with tom comming up with a gun and locking jerry up in a bottle. 2 is where jerry and a little duck kick toms ass and fly away to some tropical place and suddenly tom shows up on the beach and lowers a shade over them while grinning evily

2004-01-19, 11:49	Link #10
u&t Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003	Tom & Jerry is relatively tame compared to some newer stuff. Best example I can come up with is a french show. The ultra violent and sometimes totally hillarious "Oggy and the cockroaches". Everyone should watch that one. Anyway I don't see the usefullness of subjects like these. Kids over the age of 4 have about the same perception capabilities as adults. They're really, really good at telling the difference between fake and reality. Sadly most adults doesn't seem to get this. Btw thats why you should try to keep kids away from news imagery as much as possible. They know THAT stuff is for real but they haven't learned to not empathize with victims like we have.

2004-01-19, 13:08	Link #12
pathyfinder Terabyte needs anime! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Columbus, Ohio	seriously always wondered why the Coyote didn't just order in a freezer full of butchered chickens or road runners. Why spend time and money on weapons when you could of just ordered in what you wanted? but that's my thinking I liked the road runner and no matter how HE thought he had every aspect well thought out and covered (like when he tried one, two, three, and four times on the same move) he was always outsmarted or outwitted or just had the plain dumb luck of being outdone by the smart assed road runner.... this pretty much rings true in REAL WORLD work and life I also can't watch "itchy & Scratchy" on the simpsons... people have to tell me when it's "safe" to look again. I can't remove myself from something not feeling pain ever. On another Note I get a kick out of "protective parents" seeing as they THINK their kids are not watching or hearing this or that, but the kids do hear this and that at their friends house, on the street, and anywhere else the parents are not around... they are so unaware of what their kids are exposed to and rather be lazy and have rules and ban stuff instead of just do a little work and explain and talk to their kids. Kids are not dumb!

2004-01-19, 13:09	Link #13
Sailordareone2300 Sailor Mercury Lover Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Age: 40	Let them watch it i don't care Parents are lazy and most of dumb as hell If they would get off the ass once in a while and do their job we wouldn't be talking about it i was rised with spankings and the belt it didn't hurt me I did stuff that was bad like tell my teacher to F**K oFF and i got hit But i never did that again It should go back to the old days Parents did their job and not the tv

2004-01-19, 15:39	Link #16
SwiftStar Daydreamer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Brooklyn	You know it's kind of hard to give you a well thought out, intelligent answer with that icon of yours bouncing around.

2004-01-19, 15:53	Link #17
hentai_wolf Vivisectionist VI Join Date: Feb 2003 Age: 49	Keep in mind that most of the violent American cartoons were made many decades ago. Tom and Jerry was from the 60's and 70's (and the later ones had them as friends). There was a great deal of criticism about Tom and Jerry ever after it went into syndication. There's a reason the Simpsons' parody of children's cartoons is a cat and a mouse. Most Warner Bros. cartoons are from even earlier, going all the way back to the 30's and maybe even 20's. I always thought it was funny growing up seeing how they kept censoring the Bugs Bunny cartoons more and more. Anytime there was gunfire it cut to a stillframe of another character. Of course the first thing to get censored out was all the cigarette jokes. I didn't even realize they had removed them until I saw the laserdiscs. I'm not sure how much censoring Cartoon Network does though. If you watch American children's cartoons that have been made in the last five years, you'll probably never seen a gun. You probably won't see any blood or death. There has always been a great deal of pressure on the makers of children's programming in America by both parents are various groups. It finally killed Saturday morning cartoons (although I'm sure cable helped). American children's cartoons today always feel somewhat neutered. Also of note is that what most parents don't like to see are things that children can imitate. It's unlikely that a child is going to jump out an airlock, but they might jump off the roof. At least that's what parents think. That's why very cartoony violence is accepted a lot more than realistic violence. Parents are worried that their kids will imitate the cartoon. Whether this is a valid concern or not, I don't really know.

2004-01-19, 16:03	Link #18
Joe Dalton Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003	personaly i liek cant and mice but i still rooted for tom to win. And no not all people did sick experiments on animals =/

2004-01-19, 17:05	Link #19
Lambda Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Age: 44	OK, perception in our society. Well, the important area is the perception of the complainers (or as I like to call them, people who don't know how to turn a television off), since they're the ones who set the tone for the debates within society which drive cultural perceptions. (And since culture tells almost everyone how to think, cultural perceptions and those of society are more or less equivalent.) From my (albeit limited) experience of observing such people, the most important factor is that it's never about violence alone. Violence doesn't have any significance on its own, it needs to be given a meaning from somewhere. And so the complaints always have a social, political or religious basis. (Also, since they don't tend to be completely logical in nature, they are heavily influenced by cultural considerations such as whether something is "new" or not.) Unfortunately there are a wide variety of such possible motivations, but the unifying factor across much of it seems to me to be one of preserving illusions. People want to believe the world is a nice place, that's far more pleasant, and they also tend to believe that children should hold a sanitised view of the world. And so anything that makes the comfortable illusions of children or adults difficult to maintain becomes a threat, and must be dealt with. (This is also the process behind the vast majority of religious bigotry.) Thus those parts of the media which are labelled as "violent" tend to be those which actually contain negative statements about the state of the world. Tom and Jerry and the like portray a world heavily divorced from reality, so such objections are hard to find. The greater realism of anime means violence in it is more likely to induce feelings about problems in the real world, thus making such objections far more common. And then there's blood. It's not seen in (most) Western animation, so blood in animation is new. And so attracts attention, attracting criticism by those cultural considerations I mentioned earlier. N.B. This is mostly based on observing specifically British culture.