Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Actually, I'm glad that this fiend is playing a key role here.

Here's why:

1) It neatly ties the subplots of the show together. The way the human society of SSY ran itself has a wider impact that now ties directly into the world of the Queerats. It makes this narrative feel a bit more epic, and cohesive, than what would otherwise be the case. I mean, if the Queerats were achieving this all due to their own ingenuity, then the whole situation with Shun would lack its foreshadowing importance, and the whole bit with Tomiko recruiting Saki while Maria and Mamoru run away would feel like some ultimately inconsequential side-story. All of these stories would still be very good, but they'd seem more fragmented to me. The whole would become less than the sum of its parts. Right now, the whole is at least the sum of its parts.


2) This isn't just about the rise of the Queerats. In fact, that's probably the subheading here. Whether we like it or not, I think SSY is primarily about the decline (if not total fall) of humanity. That's the thematic headline. What more poetic way of showing that than to have humanity hoisted on its own petard?

The human society in SSY is totally being hoisted on its own petard.

The introduction of Death Feedback is what has made them so vulnerable to fiends.

Their method of preventing the arising of fiends is what ultimately drove Mamoru and Maria into running away.

Their underestimation of the Queerats is what enabled the Queerats to take advantage of the Mamoru/Maria situation.


SSY is an almost picture-perfect tragedy. In my opinion, the best tragedies have these two key elements:

A) The tragic figure or society is undone by their own actions. They're not simply overwhelmed by an exterior force that they couldn't possibly be expected to deal with.

B) Nonetheless, the tragic figure is sympathetic. You can understand why they made the choices that they did.

SSY knocks A right out of the ballpark, and Maria's kid is a big part of the reason why. And I think SSY does a decent job with B. Not flawless, but decent.

[ChainLegacy]

Good points. I do agree that the author skillfully interwove the two plotlines, even if I personally would have preferred them remaining separate.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

I don't think SSY would be SSY if it wasn't a mix of o-god human drama and THE QUEERRAT WARs. It just wouldn't be the same story, preference is a moot point.

[Hitenma]

Moreover, the war wouldn't have happened in the first place if Yakomaru hadn't had the child.
He would have had a hard time convincing all other queerats to sacrifice for his cause.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, I'm disappointed that Shisei didn't try entrapping the fiend. Surely a being with his cantus powers could have found a way to ensnare him without killing him. That would at least buy people time to come up with a permanent solution.

Freeze the fiend in a cube of ice... Put him inside of a deep pit that goes a full km down... Create a metallic safe around him.

But I suppose we can chalk Shisei's failure up to overconfidence on his part. He certainly had some hubris to him.

What? That's exactly what he tried to do. He tried entrapping the fiend in a sand/dirt pit. He bought time by playing defensive.

How was he supposed to expect Cantus leakage? He was being attacked without any conscious thought behind it.


The problem isn't just that Shisei can't kill him. He can't harm the fiend in any way, which means incapacitating or knocking him unconscious is out of the question as well. Remember that the temple elder triggered Saki's death feedback simply by stabbing himself. The mechanism kicks in well before they cross the line.

[Tougarashi]

Will it be second season for Shin Sekai Yori ?

[Raghar]

Originally Posted by Tougarashi

Will it be second season for Shin Sekai Yori ?

No. Books finished about at 25 episode.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

OK, look.

DO YOU THINK THE AUTHOR NEVER STOPPED TO CONSIDER THIS?

Just asking.

As if it would be the first time that a writer conveniently "misses" the simplest solution for the sake of drama!!

Even if they do have a countermeasure in place, now it's too late. They already lost a whole village including the two most powerful PKers. I doubt that anything that the author could have cooked up for the ending will make me change my opinion. Not when a freakin' remote-controlled bomb could have solved this chaos in one second.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

The entire point? I'm commenting on human nature. I consider it rather inherent that people will be prepared to put down and punish those who break the rules of the system.
[...]
I'm not entirely convinced you've understood what I'm complaining about in the first place. I do not consider foresight of this event necessary for a human society to imagine a need to punish and put down a conflict once it arises. I consider this ability to imagine conflict, regardless of whatever measures have been taken, inherently human.
[...]

I think that you are addressing your expectations to the wrong side here. I can't be sure about that, but in this story we humans are the rats and not the PKers. If you let aside the resemblance for a moment and just look at both races' evolution, but more precisely to the rat evolution presented at the current time of the story, they are fast forwarding our history and our behaviors. They fight each other, they introduced democracy, they are rebelling.
Instead, why should the Pkers still follow what you call human nature? They lost their humanity the moment they became gods. It's a catchphrase, but synthesizes their evolution and what they are now.
They kill their own children (sort of selective breeding), they kill other sentient and talking beings like they were insects. Where is their humanity? They have powers that "can split the Earth in half", is that still human? Why should I think like a human with all that power? How could I?
My point is that the Pkers don't need to follow or apply what we think they should, til a certain degree.

Looking at it taking into account kuromitsu connecting our dear Maria to the Virgin Mary and Mamoru to Joseph (the guardian of Jesus) it like the rats are fighting the pagan deities to institute their own god, Yakomaru obviously! (j/k)

[kuromitsu]

>Gohan78

Think whatever you want.

Obviously it's not important, but I'll just leave the timeline here:

Bakenezumi attack -> Satoru & Saki join a team and go to the hospital to wipe out remaining bakenezumi forces -> omg they have an akki -> everyone but S&S dies -> S&S start trekking back to the central village on foot, in the meanwhile bakenezumi armies terrorize people everywhere -> S&S are separated, Saki finds Tomiko, escapes with Niimi as the akki closes in on the village and proceeds to massacre everyone -> Saki & Niimi arrive to the town finding that it's too late. Satoru also arrives too late.

Until Shisei faced the kid the only people who knew that they weren't dealing with bakenezumi only were:
-Doctor Whatshisface and the rest of the hospital: were wrapped up like a mummy, immobile and unable to communicate until they were freed. Then they died.
-the team Satoru and Saki joined: dead
-Tomiko and whoever else was there with her in that village: dead or heavily injured/otherwise immobile/shocked into a coma.
-Satoru, Saki and Niimi: too late.

Obviously they should've all carried homing pigeons just in case an akki turns up.

Originally Posted by Arya

I think that you are addressing your expectations to the wrong side here. I can't be sure about that, but in this story we humans are the rats and not the PKers. If you let aside the resemblance for a moment and just look at both races' evolution, but more precisely to the rat evolution presented at the current time of the story, they are fast forwarding our history and our behaviors. They fight each other, they introduced democracy, they are rebelling.

They also do some really shady and despicable things. If we're to hate the humans for what they're doing to their children and to other species, why shouldn't we hate the bakenezumi for what they do to their own kind and what they're about to do to another species? Genocide is no-no for humans but A-OK for bakenezumi?

Originally Posted by Arya

Instead, why should the Pkers still follow what you call human nature? They lost their humanity the moment they became gods. They kill their own children (sort of selective breeding), they kill other sentient and talking beings like they were insects. Where is their humanity?

The same place where our humanity is? Look at our history and look at what is going on right now in so many places in the world. Even if us, personally, are disgusted and horrified by all the shit our kind has done over the centuries and millennia, we're still the products of the civilizations our ancestors have built, and we, as a human race, continue to do horrifying shit to this day. Maybe not us, personally - but then even in SSY not all people are "involved" with the mechancs of the society. The humans in SSY are still humans. They have our worst qualities and our best qualities.

Originally Posted by Arya

They have powers that "can split the Earth in half", is that still human? Why should I think like a human with all that power? How could I?

Look at all those WMDs we have created...

Originally Posted by Arya

Looking at it taking into account kuromitsu connecting our dear Maria to the Virgin Mary and Mamoru to Joseph (the guardian of Jesus) it like the rats are fighting the pagan deities to institute their own god, Yakomaru obviously! (j/k)

Hence the full tagline, "Fight against the false gods, Squealer is the One True God"? XD;; (Reminds me of Robespierre and his "Cult of the Supreme Being"... XD)

[Arya]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

They also do some really shady and despicable things. If we're to hate the humans for what they're doing to their children and to other species, why shouldn't we hate the bakenezumi for what they do to their own kind and what they're about to do to another species? Genocide is no-no for humans but A-OK for bakenezumi?

The same place where our humanity is? Look at our history and look at what is going on right now in so many places in the world. Even if us, personally, are disgusted and horrified by all the shit our kind has done over the centuries and millennia, we're still the products of the civilizations our ancestors have built, and we, as a human race, continue to do horrifying shit to this day. Maybe not us, personally - but then even in SSY not all people are "in" on the mechanics of their society. The humans in SSY are still humans. They have our worst qualities and our best qualities.

Look at all those WMDs we have created...

I have never said that queerats are the goods and humans are the evils, I simply traced in my opinion who is who. So if you look for some behavior resemblances is better to look to the right side. My point implied taht they are despicable as much as we are and has been, as you pointed out. Not to imply that we should sympathize with them.
Look at them, queerats real power exists only under certain specific conditions. Queerats power exists and can stand a chance only if you consider the rats as a whole and not as single entities. But to gain that power you need someone who is able to unify them, to use/take advantage of their desires, their needs and their fears, and ultimately to lead them against something that is far more powerful than they are. Their stake here is their own existence, it's a do-or-die call. The WMD also fits perfectly as analogy rats=humans, they "gained" a WMD and their next thought is to mass-produce them. And we failed in see that coming because we still see them as rats
On the other side of the wall the humans are the opposite, each entity has enough power to wipe the queerats out alone, they don't need anything than the will of just one of them to effectively kill them. They don't need to organize themselves, nor to be convinced to do anything. They had nothing at stake, if not as of late. So (using an hyperbole) to me, in this story, they are humans as much as I'm when ants invade my kitchen an I try to exterminate them using insecticide. (And I don't think it is a point of the story). Just until now. But not because they are humans after all, but because queerats are not ants
But again, I don't care if you sympathize for one side or the other. This story is not about goods and evils (I know I don't need to say you that). If matters to me it's, or should be, a matter of smartness. So ultimately, of evolution.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Hence the full tagline, "Fight against the false gods, Squealer is the One True God"? XD;; (Reminds me of Robespierre and his "Cult of the Supreme Being"... XD)

Well, if you ask me it follow more the self-determination principle, if you need a false god, well better you choose one by yourself than imposed by someone else.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

As if it would be the first time that a writer conveniently "misses" the simplest solution for the sake of drama!!

Even if they do have a countermeasure in place, now it's too late. They already lost a whole village including the two most powerful PKers. I doubt that anything that the author could have cooked up for the ending will make me change my opinion. Not when a freakin' remote-controlled bomb could have solved this chaos in one second.

The problem is I fail to see how any of your solutions are "simple". Poison Gas, bombs going off, firearms, traps, bakenezumi guards.

I can think of major issues with all your solutions, on many of them the death feedback would STILL be in effect. Not to mention if you have to set these things up in case an Akki just happens to appear they would have to be set up at all times and they could potentially harm your citizens.

And I don't think you want to use Bakenezumi guards in this situation, you don't want the monster rats to know you are vulnerable like that and this akki is being sent from the monster rats (and the monster rats most loyal to the humans were already killed)

So while yes there are holes in their plan, guess what there are tons of holes in your plan too. Just because a plan might have missed something is not a plot hole it's meant to show the characters as flawed.

You are also missing the entire point that this Akki came from an outside source (the monster rats). They took major efforts so one did not appear within the village. This was something else entirely that they did not forsee (so no they were not prepared for it). Not to mention the circumstances of pretty much the entire village being outside because of the festival, means they weren't warned in time & could not prepare any type of defense ahead of time.

And Yakomaru planned this for many years. He was well planned and caught the PK users completely off guard.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

I don't think SSY would be SSY if it wasn't a mix of o-god human drama and THE QUEERRAT WARs. It just wouldn't be the same story, preference is a moot point.

The rat plotline is simply more interesting to me, and apparently some others as well. So, moot point or not, that's how I feel.

Originally Posted by Hitenma

Moreover, the war wouldn't have happened in the first place if Yakomaru hadn't had the child.
He would have had a hard time convincing all other queerats to sacrifice for his cause.

Therein lies my complaint. I don't like this implication. I'd rather they have the confidence to fight back for the justifiable reasons the captive rat gave, without any messiah at all.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I can think of major issues with all your solutions, on many of them the death feedback would STILL be in effect. Not to mention if you have to set these things up in case an Akki just happens to appear they would have to be set up at all times and they could potentially harm your citizens.

Like Solace pointed out, the death feedback itself is a pretty convenient, malleable plot element that doesn't make much sense. So if that's what it all boils down to, you should see why people find it a little silly, even if you don't agree.

Originally Posted by Arya

I think that you are addressing your expectations to the wrong side here. I can't be sure about that, but in this story we humans are the rats and not the PKers. If you let aside the resemblance for a moment and just look at both races' evolution, but more precisely to the rat evolution presented at the current time of the story, they are fast forwarding our history and our behaviors. They fight each other, they introduced democracy, they are rebelling.
Instead, why should the Pkers still follow what you call human nature? They lost their humanity the moment they became gods. It's a catchphrase, but synthesizes their evolution and what they are now.
They kill their own children (sort of selective breeding), they kill other sentient and talking beings like they were insects. Where is their humanity? They have powers that "can split the Earth in half", is that still human? Why should I think like a human with all that power? How could I?
My point is that the Pkers don't need to follow or apply what we think they should, til a certain degree.

Looking at it taking into account kuromitsu connecting our dear Maria to the Virgin Mary and Mamoru to Joseph (the guardian of Jesus) it like the rats are fighting the pagan deities to institute their own god, Yakomaru obviously! (j/k)

I agree that the rats are more human than the humans in this world. Nonetheless, I have trouble seeing how any intelligent, human-like species would lack some elements of 'human nature,' or at least in regards to being able to foresee conflict. But, whatever, I have moved on and accepted it at this point.

[Kirarakim]

They kill their own children (sort of selective breeding), they kill other sentient and talking beings like they were insects. Where is their humanity? They have powers that "can split the Earth in half", is that still human? Why should I think like a human with all that power? How could I?

What do you mean where is their humanity?

The scene when Satoru hugged Saki who realized she lost Maria
Saki's mother freaking out that she doesn't want to lose another child
The woman who decided to stay behind with the injured woman while Saki & Satoru went to warn the villagers.
That same woman's reaction when she realized her friend had died (and Satotu pulling her away so she would not look).
The guy who risked his life to send the message over the loud speaker
Saki's parents who went back and risked their lives to free the cats.

This society is not perfect but they have certainly shown human emotion.

[hyperborealis]

The akki is to the humans as the humans are to the bakenezumi. Just as the humans must destroy the akki to preserve their society, so to must the bakenezumi destroy the humans to enable themselves to live in the freedom consistent with the dignity of intelligent beings.

The tragedy of SSY is that there can be no modus vivendi between humans and bakenezumi, even though both species are, as the bakenezumi captive attests, equal. One species must either enslave or exterminate the other.

We have then a contest to find which species can be most brutally inhumane, for the sake of preserving itself into future as the surviving species of humanity.

What a bleak show this is.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Like Solace pointed out, the death feedback itself is a pretty convenient, malleable plot element that doesn't make much sense. So if that's what it all boils down to, you should see why people find it a little silly, even if you don't agree.

But IT does make sense if you understand why they created such an extreme measure in the first place.

The whole Akki thing came AFTER the whole death feedback thing and they found a pretty good system to deal with it, it just didn't take into account an outside force like the monster rats.

On another note people who have read the book keep pointing out that things will be explained but people like to scream plot hole before they know the whole story, that is what is silly to me.

edit: Also I haven't noticed any inconsistencies/conveniences with the death feedback. I think the story has stuck pretty well to set of rules. The ONLY one that I think I might question (which at least wasn't explained perfectly in the anime) was when the doctor killed the Akki K. I think I have come up with an explanation, but I don't know if it is the correct one.

However the rest (the monster cats, poison pills) don't seem like any type of contradiction or bending of the rules since you are having other creatures/the person themselves do the killing.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But IT does make sense if you understand why they created such an extreme measure in the first place.

The whole Akki thing came AFTER the whole death feedback thing and they found a pretty good system to deal with it, it just didn't take into account an outside force like the monster rats.

On another note people who have read the book keep pointing out that things will be explained but people like to scream plot hole before they know the whole story, that is what is silly to me.

edit: Also I haven't noticed any inconsistencies/conveniences with the death feedback. I think the story has stuck pretty well to set of rules. The ONLY one that I think I might question (which at least wasn't explained perfectly in the anime) was when the doctor killed the Akki K. I think I have come up with an explanation, but I don't know if it is the correct one.

However the rest (the monster cats, poison pills) don't seem like any type of contradiction or bending of the rules since you are having other creatures/the person themselves do the killing.

I disagree. If death feedback is genetic, it would take an extremely sophisticated degree of expertise in altering one's genome to encode such a specific occurrence. With that in mind, I don't see why they couldn't have put in a reasonable 'self preservation' or 'self defense' clause into it. If it's social conditioning, then it should be capable of being undone through similar methods to the one we saw with the monk in the woods. So even if they could not originally have envisioned the existence of fiends, they do know of them now, and should have made the necessary alterations. They did their due diligence to a frightening degree on the preventative end, including killing their own children, but I'm supposed to believe they made no effort on the other end of things?

Additionally, the death feedback does come off as rather malleable and nonsensical, no matter how I try to reason it, when one takes into account that they can put people to death indirectly through the mutant cats, or the doctor could have made a lethal injection (???) last time around. You say guns, bombs, etc are different from sending a cat to kill someone? I don't see how. They're both indirect and impersonal ways to achieve the same end. Both of these events should trigger death feedback, but they don't, because like Solace said, it's more or less a convenient plot element. I think it's subject to a bit of scrutiny no matter how die-hard a fan you are of this series.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I disagree. If death feedback is genetic, it would take an extremely sophisticated degree of expertise in altering one's genome to encode such a specific occurrence. With that in mind, I don't see why they couldn't have put in a reasonable 'self preservation' or 'self defense' clause into it. If it's social conditioning, then it should be capable of being undone through similar methods to the one we saw with the monk in the woods. So even if they could not originally have envisioned the existence of fiends, they do know of them now, and should have made the necessary alterations. They did their due diligence to a frightening degree on the preventative end, including killing their own children, but I'm supposed to believe they made no effort on the other end of things?

It's based on genetics AND conditioning. And I think the idea that they can create such pinpoint precision (you can only kill in some instances) would be even more unbelievable.

Additionally, the death feedback does come off as rather malleable and nonsensical, no matter how I try to reason it, when one takes into account that they can put people to death indirectly through the mutant cats, or the doctor could have made a lethal injection (???) last time around. You say guns, bombs, etc are different from sending a cat to kill someone? I don't see how. They're both indirect and impersonal ways to achieve the same end. Both of these events should trigger death feedback, but they don't, because like Solace said, it's more or less a convenient plot element.

No the difference is the cat is doing the killing not you. Obviously that shows someone else or something else can do the killing for you. Just because you do not like the rule set up doesn't mean it does not make sense. It's not like they are standing there watching the cat as it kills its victim (if they were then obviously the mistake with Mamoru would not have happened).

Shooting someone with a gun is no different than killing them with a knife. I really don't see how you think that one would work.

And lets say death feedback would not be enacted if they set off a bomb how the hell could they even plan that with a fiend. Is the fiend just going to stay still to be blown up. Would no one else not get hurt in this type of blast (what happens if they accidentally kill other humans). And furthermore this is a society that has lost all notion of technology. Unless you are saying they can create a bomb with their PK but then oh wait that would be killing humans directly again.

So yeah I think your examples of bombs and guns are entirely different from the cats.

I think it's subject to a bit of scrutiny no matter how die-hard a fan you are of this series.

I have criticized the series before I just disagree with people's complaints in this instance and I have explained why.

I also said the only thing you can possibly criticize is how the Doctor killed the Akki because it was not properly explained, at least not yet. I believe there is an explanation that does not contradict the death feedback rule (having to do with the akki calming down and asking for medicine).

edit: On another note I think another thing people are missing is that even if they developed a defense against the Akki this whole thing happened so suddenly with no warning that they couldn't prepare anything. They were caught off guard because of the festival & the monster rat attack. It was shown that one scout tried to warn everyone but everyone was already gone.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

What do you mean where is their humanity?

The scene when Satoru hugged Saki who realized she lost Maria
Saki's mother freaking out that she doesn't want to lose another child
The woman who decided to stay behind with the injured woman while Saki & Satoru went to warn the villagers.
That same woman's reaction when she realized her friend had died (and Satotu pulling her away so she would not look).
The guy who risked his life to send the message over the loud speaker
Saki's parents who went back and risked their lives to free the cats.

This society is not perfect but they have certainly shown human emotion.

I wasn't saying that they lost all their humanity, they are not like cylons , it was more asking where is their humanity in that cases I pointed out.

Anyways, the examples you listed are confined within a very short boundary. The woman action was driven by such a particular event that hardly can be counted as a proof, as much as the guy who risked his life. They were already in an over-the-edge situation. About Saki's mother, being a mother is a particular condition/role that can't say much about the majority. As much as Saki and Satoru, they are specimens of an experiment. Maria herself in her letter expressed her thoughts against this society, implying how the five have a different perception of the matter. Thanks to the fact they haven't been subjugated by the elders. And anyways these emotions has been showed in relation to their own species. Even Satoru and Saki didn't display much of that emotions killing lot and lot of queerats.

Beware, I'm not blaming their society for that or for what they are doing. I agree with you that they found a good system to deal with their whole situation/condition, giving what they have to deal with.
On the contrary If anything I blame them to have broken the rules never correcting that error. Namely when the experiment failed. But that's not the topic
In any case I'm a bit nitpiking. My whole argumentation was not absolute, but relative to queerats and humans. Where I find the former much closer to humans, and the latter closer to gods. For the reasons I wrote in my two previous posts.

[Kirarakim]

Arya, I think I agree the society has thrown out some of their humanity to survive. The very fact that they fear their own children is proof of this.

I was just disagreeing that they don't show signs of humanity at all, but I apologize if I misunderstood you.