(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer

I doubt that Serie's existence was hidden from the public until 50 years ago based on what Flamme said. Flamme said that she and Serie would never defeat the Demon King because they seek out conflict (with demons), and the implication of that is that the Demon King would never willingly enter a fight with Flamme or Serie because he knew he would lose. Frieren's more peaceful approach to life (complemented by deliberate instruction from Flamme) meant that she would not make a name for herself to that point that she'd be on the Demon King's radar, which is proven accurate by how Aura assessed Frieren as being the weakest member of the Hero's party, and that is how with the help of the Hero's Party, the Demon King was defeated. If Flamme and Serie had approached the Demon King's lair, the Demon King probably would have fled and created a new lair whereas he was taken by surprise by Frieren.

Richter stated she "suddenly appeared" 50 years ago. I took that as meaning no one but a very select few knew who she was until then. Unlike Frieren she probably wasn't completely unknown (the Demon King probably knew her), but it sounds like humanity had never heard of her. It could be she's similar to Kraft in that she was super famous eons ago and then faded away from human history.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

I doubt she's malicious enough to be picking fights for no reason like Ubel, and gatekeeping may filter out the commoners from the talented mages, but it's not like she can stop lower class mages from existing like Kanne and Lawine.

If she likes talented mages with ambition wouldn't that be simple enough motivation for what she does?
i.e. She found human(s) worth raising, which increased her involvement with humans until she gained the reputation she has today, similar to how Himmel and Heiter pushed Frieren to do something with her life until she became famous for being a demon slayer.

Gatekeeping is the word I was looking for. Given Frieren's statement that mages used to be a lot more numerous 80 years ago, it sounds like that's what she's doing with the magic association.

[Wandering Soul]

Out of the all the competitors, Denken is easily my favorite. He's smart, wise, and not afraid to get down and dirty for what he wants.

Hey, Stark got to make an appearance.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Sure it does. If they can't envision a life where the Demon King is gone, then they can't kill him.

That kind of logic seems flimsy to me, because visualization appears to be specific to the outcome of a spell or magical technique. What you need to visualize is how to perform the spell or technique and its result. There's no need for Serie to visualize a life where the Demon King is gone, because that's irrelevant to the effectiveness of her spells and techniques.

That leads me to believe that Flamme is just making an analogy. I don't think we'll understand what she really meant until much later in the story.

[Nachtwandler]

My understanding is that Serie simply did not want the Demon Lord to die as it meant more war. Flamme just tried to sound as ambigous as possible.

[TURI123456]

About the elf that won against Frieren, I think it was the unknown elf that she met 300 years ago. The reason that I don't think it was Serie is because it was said that they last met before 1000. years ago.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Richter stated she "suddenly appeared" 50 years ago. I took that as meaning no one but a very select few knew who she was until then. Unlike Frieren she probably wasn't completely unknown (the Demon King probably knew her), but it sounds like humanity had never heard of her. It could be she's similar to Kraft in that she was super famous eons ago and then faded away from human history.



Gatekeeping is the word I was looking for. Given Frieren's statement that mages used to be a lot more numerous 80 years ago, it sounds like that's what she's doing with the magic association.

Frieren and Serie are over 1000 years old they can be famous for hundreds of years and still be forgotten (I don't say that is the case here).

Originally Posted by deadite

Frieren: The world of Magic is the world of images. Can you imagine beating a mage with control of water while It's raining? I know I can't.

I think that was just a way to say how the environment can change the tide of a fight and not something that we need to take literally.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Or maybe it is because her, um, what is it... grandapprentice, managed to do what her apprentice predicted a thousand years ago... kill the demon lord and start an era of piece.

Anyway, still really curious if Frieren is the "last" great mage because she is the last one to be discovered in the modern era, she was declared the last one after defeating the demon lord or the era of the great mages has ended and the others are gone... although that last possibility is unlikely with Serie still around.

About the "Great Mage", I think it is the pendent that Frieren takes with her. If that is the case it will make sense that she is the last one because it seems like it's old.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

My understanding is that Serie simply did not want the Demon Lord to die as it meant more war. Flamme just tried to sound as ambigous as possible.

That wouldn't apply to Flamme herself.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That kind of logic seems flimsy to me, because visualization appears to be specific to the outcome of a spell or magical technique. What you need to visualize is how to perform the spell or technique and its result. There's no need for Serie to visualize a life where the Demon King is gone, because that's irrelevant to the effectiveness of her spells and techniques.

That's not a rebuttal to what I said though.

A mage that only knows of war and battles will only think in terms of battle strength. That limits their way of thinking, and gets in the way of beating the Demon King because they would only think of him in terms of whether they can kill him or not.
Visualizing killing the strongest demon who has lived for at least over a thousand years is a high bar.

That's not to mention that visualization goes both ways.
Lawine couldn't freeze Richter because she knew that Richter was strong and had more mana than her.
Even if we assume that Serie is equal to the Demon King, her awareness of the Demon King's power would only get in her way, and the same goes for Flamme.

Meanwhile, Frieren doesn't have to think of killing the Demon King, because she knows that there's other ways she can be useful. For example, she broke Serie's barrier.
If we apply that line of thinking to the Demon King, "killing the Demon King with magic" and just "neutralizing his spells" or maybe "pushing him back/buying time" are completely different standards.
The latter cases would be completely useless to Serie, because it would mean a stalemate at best.

But Frieren? That would be helpful enough to give Himmel an opening to kill the Demon King instead. And all this would stem just from a different way of thinking.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That's not to mention that visualization goes both ways.
Lawine couldn't freeze Richter because she knew that Richter was strong and had more mana than her.
Even if we assume that Serie is equal to the Demon King, her awareness of the Demon King's power would only get in her way, and the same goes for Flamme.

That is an assumption thought. We do not know what Serie thinks about the Demon King and his power, whatever that is. Flamme also didn't say that Serie couldn't visualize herself beating the Demon King. She said Serie couldn't visualize herself leaving in peace. I'd say that's a pretty general statement that doesn't directly relate to the Demon King per se, so it's pretty devious whether that could affect her battle with the Demon King at all.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Meanwhile, Frieren doesn't have to think of killing the Demon King, because she knows that there's other ways she can be useful. For example, she broke Serie's barrier.
If we apply that line of thinking to the Demon King, "killing the Demon King with magic" and just "neutralizing his spells" or maybe "pushing him back/buying time" are completely different standards.
The latter cases would be completely useless to Serie, because it would mean a stalemate at best.

But Frieren? That would be helpful enough to give Himmel an opening to kill the Demon King instead. And all this would stem just from a different way of thinking.

That sound nice and all, but at this point we don't know how Himmel's party defeated the Demon King at all, so I think it's a little too early to make assumptions. My point stands that we probably won't really understand what Flamme meant until much later, probably when the story decides to show us how the battle with the demon king actually went down.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That sound nice and all, but at this point we don't know how Himmel's party defeated the Demon King at all, so I think it's a little too early to make assumptions. My point stands that we probably won't really understand what Flamme meant until much later, probably when the story decides to show us how the battle with the demon king actually went down.

I think it's easy enough to understand that Flamme thinks Frieren's mindset is different from hers and Serie's and thinks that's what will lead her to victory, even if we don't know how that will play out in the final battle.

All I'm pointing out is that Frieren's conditions for winning can be unconventional and does not necessarily need to be a direct kill.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Since what is needed to visualize in that scenario isn't peace, but how to blow the Demon King's head off his shoulders .

This for example is the kind of thinking that I think Flamme was talking about. A mage that only knows battle would only think in terms of fighting the Demon King directly, while Frieren has shown through her other encounters that there's plenty of other approaches she can take even if she can't kill him.

[deadite]

Remember that 80 years ago, Himmel party weren't even able to kill Qual and Aura but somehow defeated the Demon King who is more powerful. So they won't is some logic to how strength is not what they used to slay him.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by deadite

Remember that 80 years ago, Himmel party weren't even able to kill Qual and Aura but somehow defeated the Demon King who is more powerful. So they won't is some logic to how strength is not what they used to slay him.

It's possible the Demon King is not dead. He was "defeated" which could be something else, like how Qual was sealed. There's a regular trope in fantasy stories that "The Demon King will return!", indeed in the Villainess Level 99 anime also running this season, the Demon King's reappearance is on a fixed schedule of two years. This could be the case in Frieren's world.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by deadite

Remember that 80 years ago, Himmel party weren't even able to kill Qual and Aura but somehow defeated the Demon King who is more powerful. So they won't is some logic to how strength is not what they used to slay him.

Also remember that the journey to defeat the Demon King was a 10 year quest, Qual was fought early and Aura was forced to retreat, giving them plenty of time to grow in strength.

[Decel]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I don't know if history disappears that fast. Kanne kind of just seems like the type that's never opened up a history book.

Originally Posted by Kanon

In Kanne's case, I'm pretty sure that's the reason. Lawine knew about Frieren, but since she's never met an Elf before (like 99% of people), she wasn't sure the rumors they didn't age were true. I'm guessing Serie doesn't make many public appearances and probably only shows herself before first class mages.

Just noticed after rewatching the scene: Even Sense doesn't know who Frieren is by name, and she's presumably a first-class mage. And Genau's dialogue seems to imply that he knows only because he's the type to read history books.

So it's not because Kanne is Kanne

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by nojay

It's possible the Demon King is not dead. He was "defeated" which could be something else, like how Qual was sealed. There's a regular trope in fantasy stories that "The Demon King will return!", indeed in the Villainess Level 99 anime also running this season, the Demon King's reappearance is on a fixed schedule of two years. This could be the case in Frieren's world.

In ep 3 when Qual asks about the Demon King, Frieren specifically says "[we] killed him" unambiguously (in Japanese). "Defeated" is a different word.

Side note: demons seem to have a life-span, unlike elves. I wonder if there's been multiple "demon kings" over the years or not.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Decel

Just noticed after rewatching the scene: Even Sense doesn't know who Frieren is by name, and she's presumably a first-class mage. And Genau's dialogue seems to imply that he knows only because he's the type to read history books.

So it's not because Kanne is Kanne

She kind of seems like an airhead so who can say she also isn't the type to read history books ? Kanne is qualified to take the exam regardless of kind of being an idiot. This may be called an exam but it's not an actual exam. I'm sure idiots can pass it too.

[Twi]

Sense is a First-Class Mage. You don't get that position by being stupid.

[Alchemist007]

That guy spamming stone magic against the two girls sure seemed to have a lot of mana.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

About the "Great Mage", I think it is the pendent that Frieren takes with her. If that is the case it will make sense that she is the last one because it seems like it's old.

So, you think that there's some story out in the world where there are let's say "X number of great mages" of the ancient world and Frieren is the last one to be identified as such, since the others were already known? Yeah, that sounds pretty plausible.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Certainly the scene between Flamme and Serie provokes more questions than it answers. However, Serie didn't refute Flamme so even if we can't reliably follow the chain of reasoning, it does seem that Flamme was correct.

I also wonder how Flamme concluded that Frieren had such a personality since if you go by ep 10 they don't feel particularly different in their desire to kill demons.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Certainly the scene between Flamme and Serie provokes more questions than it answers. However, Serie didn't refute Flamme so even if we can't reliably follow the chain of reasoning, it does seem that Flamme was correct.

I also wonder how Flamme concluded that Frieren had such a personality since if you go by ep 10 they don't feel particularly different in their desire to kill demons.

Most likely it was Frieren's answer that she would rather learn magic on her own rather than let Serie give her one. Denken having the same mindset is what led to this flashback in the first place.

If Frieren really wanted to get stronger at all costs, then she wouldn't have had the luxury to refuse an opportunity like this.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Most likely it was Frieren's answer that she would rather learn magic on her own rather than let Serie give her one. Denken having the same mindset is what led to this flashback in the first place.

I think Flamme had figured that out in advance of that meeting. She could probably guess what Serie would offer Frieren and what Frieren's answer would be, else she wouldn't have been so confident about Frieren eventually beating the Demon King.

To be clear, it's not like I didn't think there were answers to my question. It's just that it's all speculation.

If Frieren really wanted to get stronger at all costs, then she wouldn't have had the luxury to refuse an opportunity like this.

Agreed. Flamme does appear good at reading people (including elves) and could probably compare and contrast Frieren and Serie. I'm guessing Flamme had noticed that Frieren didn't have the "burning ambition" that Serie has based on their time together. Perhaps Frieren didn't show any signs of rushing to get revenge either or being blood-thirsty.

I'm still surprised that Flamme seemed so certain though. Hmm, I guess it's possible that she had discussed certain things with Frieren in advance - Frieren didn't seem particularly surprised at Flamme's comments.

Related to this, just before her death she basically asked Frieren to lie low for as long as it takes. She must have been confident that Frieren would actually do that in practice. This is purely my own speculation but I suspect there's some hidden benefit to learning to conceal magic so well - something beyond what we saw her say in ep 10.

Hmm, the following thought occurs (and this is purely my own speculation): I wonder if Serie wants to become the "best mage in the world" or something but knows that the Demon King is stronger. Which is why she wants every spell she can get her hands on. Perhaps the Demon King is a unique demon who is ageless or something and is (or rather was) older than Serie. We've not seen any other demons create buildings for example.