2008-06-29, 06:10 | Link #381 | ||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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The claim that it means a lot for the manga to confirm, doesn't mean that the anime cannot confirm. Quote:
ZAFT was recruiting Coordinators from Orb. Recruit: Coordinators go over willingly. Do you understand why they can? Because Orb didn't officially send them over. Because the Coordinators in Orb were civillians who aren't bound by the treaty. What Cagalli didn't want happen was Orb's civillians helping the ZAFT military with the use of Orb's technology, which would lead to the production of more power. The treaty stated that Orb is banned from helping both sides. It never banned Orb from developing. Orb didn't allow PLANT or EA to use their manpower. They didn't disallow it either. Which is why Cagalli decided to meet up with Durandal. To cease ZAFT's usage of their manpower and resources. When Lacus stepped into the war, the treaty was already broken. Quote:
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She wasn't the one who kidnapped Cagalli from her marriage with Yuuna nor the one who ordered Kira to do so. She wasn't the one who wanted to stop ZAFT and EA/Orb through the presence of Cagalli nor the one who suggested it. Also, they butt into the war because Cagalli wanted to stop it. She was the President of Orb from that moment until Yuuna disregarded her. Most importantly, the one who wanted to stop everything by then was neither Lacus nor Cagalli. It was Kira. Yes, Lacus chose to escape to space. She was wrong in this case. Who said she wasn't penalized? ZAFT's forces clearly tried to stop her. But alas, she has Kira. Do you really think that if she was caught, they wouldn't punish her? Of course, Durandal is going to give special orders since she is the real Lacus. I don't remember Heine's parents. I only remember Heine's death being a stupid way for T.M Revolution's short guest voice acting. In the Destroy incident, I believe Lacus was still high up in space. Finally, there was never discontent of Lacus's actions from anyone in the anime after the war. I only see discontent from you.
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2008-06-29, 08:41 | Link #382 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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@ Neku
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2008-06-30, 07:35 | Link #383 | ||||||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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And I hope we're talking about the same scene here: when Lacus thought Archangel was a ZAFT airship. Quote:
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She is Lacus Clyne and the one who was supposed to set off to space, coincidentally, is a girl, the celebrity with the name Lacus Clyne. What is the problem there? So she got a lot of people killed in the process. But why was she pursued when she is the real Lacus Clyne? Because of the existence of Meer. Because of Durandal's plans. If you want to blame anyone, blame Durandal. Quote:
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Okay. So let's say she did knew Freedom was destroyed. She knew Kira and Archangel was fine. Thus the production of Strike Freedom. So you see, she manufactured Strike Freedom because she knew Freedom was destroyed. No, no she's definitely not preparing for war. She's just giving Kira a new toy because he screwed up the old, previous toy she helped him get. That said, so what? So what if she knew? What can she do with the Destroy incident? Why must she meddle into that Destroy incident and most importantly, why is she responsible for it when she was high up in space? What do you proclaim her to do? Fly down there ASAP and give a peace speech? Or message Meer to sing on behalf of her? Quote:
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Plus, the emotional, barbaric Shinn who lost to both Kira and Athrun. What's so flawless or rewarding about him when she already has two Aces in your-so-called her personal army?
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2008-07-01, 06:26 | Link #384 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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@ Sir Dearka @.@;; what sovereignty? PLANTs/ EA and all other countries were effectively made back to what they were BEFORE the first war happened in SEED. There was no issue with it. Destiny PLAN wasn't even just effectively talking about treating the entire world as a lab test or something. It was only about assigning the right jobs to people with the right genetic makeup for it. It's like countries would only have to follow the genetic superiority of their constituents and it would theoretically allow for no more wars to happen. Anyway, you say that she has the right not to violate it. So I guess this makes it pretty clear that she did violate it. So in the case of your argument, it's like you're saying that stealing is also OK unless you were caught. In this case, you did still STEAL, and it is wrong. This is the same thing that applies to Lacus. She violated the Treaty, whatever reason that you say that she didn't because she fought for the people. etc. In your logic, it would also be right to assume that killing is also not subject to any kind of punishment, because yes, it can be right under some set conditions like defending oneself from getting killed...but you still killed a person, you took someone else's life, and killing by most accounts and perspectives is bad first and foremost. It still is the same. The laws were created in a way that it would only allow killing to be forgiven up to a certain degree, and it also is dependent on the accused capacity to secure themselves excellent lawyers, and in some cultures we could be faced with an entirely new cultural perspective in killing other people (like we have an old concept here in the Philippines: "ubusan ng lahi" or vanquishing/killing an entire clan of related kin of the suspect due to something bad that was done to the victim and the victim's family is retaliated at as well until there is literally none left on both sides; not sure if it still happens though in this day and age) or themselves/suicide, like what happens in seppuku (not sure if it is still relevant today). They might think it right, but we may think it wrong, cause it goes against our own upbringing, so it really IS a matter of perspective, but the situation still remains the same, taking another person's life. @ monstert You just completely contradicted yourself. In this case, the Treaty then applies to EVERYONE on the planet and in the PLANTs, because the Treaty doesn't only apply to both PLANTs and EA. So yes, Lacus violated it. So can you give concrete examples as to why you think she didn't break the Treaty? She has Freedom, then she created the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, which could be theoretically being built in the last 2 years from the end of SEED to the point wherein the SF and IJ were first deployed. They were among those completely banned for what they represent. But then again, since everybody is making a joke of the Junius Treaty, then we should just state that it was indeed just a joke to make for debate fuel like this. But still, like PLANTs/ EA, Lacus is also one of the many who violated the Treaty. I do not see why you can't comprehend this fact. So um, how does this not include Lacus in the Treaty breaking? SF and IJ couldn't HAVE been built in a few days, or few episodes, or a few weeks.
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2008-07-01, 07:21 | Link #385 |
Inglourious Buster
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Eidolon Sniper, by law, she did not violate the treaty. It's like porn in some countries. One could expect a person that lives in Vietnam or Singapore NOT to produce and spread explicit content. But asking people from other countries to do so is ridiculous. Even if you are Singaporean, once you go to the States and you start making porn movies, there's no break of any laws.
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2008-07-02, 01:40 | Link #386 | ||||
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2008-07-02, 02:42 | Link #387 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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@ Sir Dearka
The fact is that they did break laws. So you're basing your argument on reasons that would allow for the criminals to do as they please just because they weren't caught? It's still the same, they did break laws. And even if other countries have more lenient laws than others, the lawbreakers can't change the fact that they did break laws, they still did something bad. It doesn't change the fact that they were lawbreakers, only a more lenient set of laws allow them to do so, but even the more lenient laws have their own limitations, or they could only allow that law to be broken only up to a certain point. Lacus is guilty of breaking the law, just as much as EA and the PLANTs were. How can you not understand that? So it must mean that EA and PLANTs broke the law, but this doesn't mean that Lacus broke it, since the 2 factions already broke the law in the first place? That logic is nonsensical. They still broke laws, whatever angle you put it. @ monstert It's because they were the major factions involved in the last war. But even if that was just the case, why did the Treaty also include Orb in what it specified? Besides, the Treaty as we know it are summarized and only brought up specific points of interest such as what was written in wiki and Gundam Official; unless of course, if the entire Treaty was also written down someplace, and allows for a more in-depth view of the Treaty in itself, there could be a possibility that other points of interest are not also included. The PLANTs and the EA are considered the more important points because they are the factions most vulnerable to Treaty breaking, or for whatever reason; the Treaty was put in place to prevent the repeat of the last war that has happened. The mere fact that the Treaty was put in place because of this major reason is enough reason for all people involved, or people on the PLANTs or on Earth for that matter, to not break it, as it could upset the balance of power, and other countries could literally take that breaking of rules or the Treaty as a threat to their country's security. Lacus used Freedom, and theoretically, since she was welcomed back to the PLANTs at the end of SE IV, it could be assumed that she acts as a rogue part of the PLANTs. If not this argument, Lacus is a private citizen who managed to amass a suspicious army including SF, IJ and the DOMs and is guilty of upsetting the balance that was long since lost at what the PLANTs and the EA did beforehand. She did and still break the Treaty, as much as what these 2 factions did, she is not innocent of not breaking any treaty, and her secretive nature about creating the SF, IJ and DOMs, as well as maintaining an intelligence network that spans the PLANTs and the entire planet without any good reason whatsoever (except for plot reasons) is enough to warrant Lacus Clyne as a scary political figure in the PLANTs and the entire world. She could easily use all those resources of hers to single handedly bring everything down and use it to fortify and strengthen her own power. It's what dictators do. The SF and IJ were breaking the Treaty's specifics on nuclear armament and technology, and they could be created during the time wherein the PLANTs and the EA were also tackling their own Treaty violations. So yes this is very relevant, because as we don't know how she came to build the 2 suits (after stealing the designs for it ) - it is not as easy as something that could be built in a span of a few episodes only. She is a private citizen, which makes her violating the Treaty as disrespecting the laws or the Treaty even more than what the PLANTs or the EA did. At least the PLANTs and EA had their own reasons why they had to break the Treaty, but they still broke the Treaty nonetheless - it's for going against the other side. Lacus? What reason does she have in creating the new suits, maintaining the intelligence network? She has none. She interfered again in the war, effectively making the war into her own business again. And this is even more so when we only knew about Terminal and Factory in the very same eps that they were introduced. Whatever the reason, they still broke the Treaty.
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2008-07-02, 08:11 | Link #388 | |
Inglourious Buster
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2008-07-02, 10:44 | Link #389 | ||||||
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2008-07-03, 04:56 | Link #390 | ||||||||||||||||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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Injustice? I don't think so. I think one of Lacus's characteristics is that although she seems perfect, she is in actual, quite a selfish person. Quote:
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Here: Meer's sacrifice. Quote:
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So you're implying that Shinn is supposed to be barbaric, otherwise he's useless? Anyway, I couldn't care less about what would happened if. I am only stating what I think about him: an emotional barbarian. Quote:
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Please. You don't need to get defensive by my mere opinion about him. Btw, you didn't answer my question for Number 10. How is Shinn superior to Athrun or Kira? What exactly is so flawless about this loser(oops)?
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2008-07-03, 05:06 | Link #391 |
Inglourious Buster
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Allow my to also express my POV here :] The greatest flaw of Destiny Kira is that to me he was just a supacyborg without character development. Athrun on the other hand was so indecisive and confused that he just annoyed me all the time. It's as if he did not learn anything after the first series. Shinn was filled with flaws. Shinn was fresh. Shinn was angry. And this is what gained my sympathy for him Not mentioning AGAIN that his Mobile Suits are just uber cool!! :P
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2008-07-03, 05:30 | Link #392 | |
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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I have confidence in Morosawa for short scripts. She should be able to pull it off this time, possibly enlarging Shinn's fanbase by making him more likable and not pitiable. Hopefully this time, we'll get to see more Kira&Lacus on-screen too.
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2008-07-03, 14:42 | Link #393 | ||||
Char clone
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada
Age: 35
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I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread so I hope I'm taking things out of context.
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As for the whole Shinn debate, I always liked his flawed personality and tragic past. In episode 7 of GSD when Athrun is falling to earth in his zaku, Shinn goes into rescue him and Athrun tells him to leave him because Impulse isnt strong enough to let them both escape earth's gravitational pull. Shinn grabs him anyway and says something like "why are you always saying stuff like that? Shouldn't you say something like 'save me you bastard!'?" Right then and there I knew Shinn was going to be a favorite of mine, it's just too bad that Shinn's character never made any progression and was basically just reduced to another soldier in the last third. Then theres also the fact that Shinn in Impulse was easily the most impressive piloting out of any CE character (in my opinion of course). Quote:
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2008-07-03, 22:53 | Link #394 | |
Photomancy Experiments
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
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2008-07-04, 08:13 | Link #395 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Can we please steer things back on-topic? The scope of this thread should only be to talk about Lacus's character, and everything else that doesn't relate to that shouldn't be here (whether Archangel's crew broke any laws, etc.). In particular, if you're interested in discussing the identity of the person behind her assassination attempt, that should be done in the Lacus' Assassination (Redux) thread.
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2008-07-04, 08:38 | Link #396 | |
Pancakes
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
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Well, Shinn is a good character at the start of GSD, but he just makes himself so easily hated at the later parts of GSD. I personally don't like him cause he just screams way too much and have freaky facial expressions at times. But I admit that he is a good pilot and his piloting of Impulse was just amazing. But he is just too damn easily manipulated. Oh, sorry for going off-topic here. Just needed to say that.
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2008-07-06, 04:43 | Link #398 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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@ 4Tran
Unless the talks get to more of Lacus' assassination (blow-by-blow account), then her assassination in this case is still part of what makes Lacus a plothole character, because she simply started to "deduce" something was wrong with Dully until it was "confirmed" when they saw Meer for the first time and CONFIRMED in the Destiny Plan notebook escapade. It's relevant because this (her assassination attempt) was where Lacus starts feeling that Dully isn't the man who he says he really is, her decision in doing so backed by the "Coordinator" assassins and the top caliber "ZAFT" MS running amok in the orphanage. @ monstert No, no. read the Treaty again. For some reason, Cagalli was afraid of the repercussion. No non-signatory would be scared like that, or then use the excuse that "EA might find what we are doing as helping the PLANTs after the war" (Cagalli). Orb WAS already a sovereign nation before AF/EA barged into their territory. Where the heck did you get the assumption that they never were until the Treaty was signed? They weren't under EA rule until Azrael decided to invade Orb. Uzumi didn't bow down to EA pressure. So Orb got burned down. You would not simply be scared of breaking any rules if you think nothing is wrong with what you are doing. Orb has tried to call for a cessation of what the PLANTs were doing a couple of times before Cagalli decided to go to Dully personally to see that it was stopped. That isn't something that would point out that Orb wasn't INVOLVED in the Treaty at all. If they weren't, they could've just continued on giving help to PLANTs. Cagalli wasn't just being scared, Orb has tried to do that prior to her visit to Dully, telling us that something was off at this point, that there is indeed something going on behind Cagalli's visit. Stop being obtuse about it, the first ep of Destiny already disproves that they are NOT a signatory or NOT involved with the Treaty. They ARE. What? Instant MS/Gundams? Even for the CE that's too ridiculous. You can't build Gundams in just a few days. >.>;; Stop going on as if Lacus did not break anything because she really did break the Treaty as much as the EA and the PLANTs. It did upset the balance of power because she even put Orb in a more evil light, if it was discovered. A more fitting angle to the SF/IJ debate is that they use batteries that are powered from a nuclear power source, something that was brought up in /m/ some weeks ago. Since they use batteries (alongside Destiny and Legend), then they cannot be held liable for breaking the Treaty, but they ARE using power from nuclear sources, which brings this case to moot. @ Sir Dearka Porn is only allowable to a certain point in countries that do have lenient laws against them, something which people should not push too far. Orb is somehow, possibly, a part of the Treaty, as evidenced by the 1st ep of Destiny. So while Cagalli is acting scared or is worried of the repercussions that Orb is facing from a direct threat from the EA, Lacus has the Freedom in the hangar, and the existence of the NJC alone merits it to break the Treaty completely in all aspects of the Treaty (banning of nuclear powered technology or weaponry except for power plants on Earth), even if she wasn't using it. But then again, why is Cagalli acting worried about Orb's help to ZAFT, and she is not worried about Freedom's repercussion at all? LOL plotholes? Or maybe that's the reason why SHE was worried, EA might discover she was hiding and allowing Lacus to hide the Freedom in the first place. @ Neku Yes, it was the Meer ripoff I was replying to. Other than the Meer ripoff...um wait...even Meer doesn't actually add anything to the "Dully is a villain tally". If Meer was doing something like outright like declaring genocide on the Naturals, then we know that Dully is up to no good. Seriously, there is nothing that Meer did that Lacus wouldn't have probably done if she was still in the PLANTs. ZAFT can't be using Orb technology/manpower if Orb didn't allow them to or help them in any way. Lacus gave me the impression in the Valley of the Stars that she simply wants to retire from active participation in the war and live a quiet life as possible with Kira in the orphanage. Kira must know that it is hard for Lacus for him to be fighting again, that is why he asked for her consent if he could. 2 years in the orphanage, living completely peaceful lives, until she gets almost assassinated? Persuading Lacus is too horrible for Kira to even think of so that Lacus could give him the keys. Again, you're giving Lacus' character an injustice. Erm...you did say he was barbaric in this post. Which he isn't, really. Where did you get Shinn being barbaric? Well, what reason did she have in going against Zala in the first place? They were guilty of stealing and giving away top secret ZAFT military weapons to a sworn enemy, so Lacus going against them is quite ridiculous at this point. This becomes even more ridiculous as she is going against a legally correct regime, it would've made more sense if Patrick Zala forcibly wrested the power away from Siegel Clyne. And of course, all that Lacus did from the point wherein she was saved by her father's loyalists onwards warranted no big of loss for her, and she continued doing this in Destiny, where her retirement from the war (in the first few eps) makes no sense. If she really was concerned about the CF's cause, she would've at least respected it and tried to do something about it. She knew how hard her father worked for the loyalty he gained and the support he also gained from his followers, she can't just bank on her "power" alone to do that or use her "power" to clearly dictate what is right and what is wrong in her opinion. Instead we are faced with plotholes Terminal and Factory, and the Destiny Plan moment that cemented her belief that Dully was "wrong" and should be dealt with accordingly. But it's funny...how come SF and IJ were with her at the ending eps of Destiny? I would probably assign IJ to Orb at this point, as what SE IV suggests, and SF and Destiny to Lacus, since Lacus is now back in PLANTs as a mediator, she has Kira the whitecoat by her side, and has Shinn the redcoat there as well. We possibly do not know if Lacus is the new chairwoman of PLANT, but wresting a whitecoat for Kira must mean something!
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2008-07-06, 05:18 | Link #399 | |
Inglourious Buster
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Spoiler for Off-Topic on porn ;):
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a) Orb is probably not restricted by the treaty as much as ZAFT or EA (this might include N-Jammer Cancellers etc.). b) After the last war, Orb tries to retrieve its position as a neutral country that tries to be as impartial as possible in international politics but watch out for potential threats of war. Seeing how EA's and ZAFT's higher ups became genocidal maniacs in the first war, there is nothing strange in the fact that many viewers share Cagalli's sentiments and worries. |
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2008-07-06, 05:50 | Link #400 | |
Tsubasa No Kami
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Spoiler for for more off-topic-ness:
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