Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[azul120]

Since my last post was apparently overlooked, why is Suzaku wanting revenge looked at as a motivating factor behind joining ZR? Beyond his "Euphy's murderer" comment, there were NO other inferences. I mean, they became best friends again during the one month skip.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by azul120

Since my last post was apparently overlooked, why is Suzaku wanting revenge looked at as a motivating factor behind joining ZR? Beyond his "Euphy's murderer" comment, there were NO other inferences. I mean, they became best friends again during the one month skip.

I just assume they haven't seen Mutuality

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

America changed due to the civil rights movement and especially brilliant people like Martin Luther king Jr and through better understanding of how to look at race.

Charles policies are heavily applauded, and generally protrayed as well liked, and Charles position is secured. As for being a change in policy, the fact that Britannia is portrayed as always being like this makes me think that its more than just Charles whose at fault.

Maybe I am cynical but I just can't see how anyone can really think that Britannia can easily change without some kind of pressure from the outside like what happened after World War II.

I do admit defeat in some portions but you have also ignored some of my points (Schneizel's defeat being the main one)

Indeed the policies have been shown to be around since long before Charles time in the flashbacks and such. Britannia was by nature a greedy and corrupt society preoccupied with only one thing, power. Even Charles fell into this role in order to be respected, even if he believed it was a falsehood that he'd sooner see abolished if he had the capability to do so without risking getting overthrown himself (this almost happened in one of the side story novels by the way, but I'm not sure if it's canon or not).

I mentioned this to you previously in one of our other back and forths, but Britannia is getting help from the outside in the form of it's cooperation with the U.N.F. You might also call Lelouch's whole Zero no Requiem a form of external pressure that pushed them onto the path of changing their ways, realizing that there could be far worse things then having each other exist and that the competiton between them is nothing but a socially constructed paradigm, which can and had been shifted by Lelouch in his actions as a Tyrant.

As for Schneizel's defeat, simple, it's Code Geass, a series where stranger things have happened, and by the episode I might add. It was well within the level of suspension of disbelief that the series had set for itself previously, and it's not impossible that Lelouch might be able to read Schneizel so well (they have after all had 20 years to get to understand each other through their countless games of chess) that he could form a general response to his quips about the way the future of the world should look. And if you want to argue that that doesn't excuse it I will say that yes it does, because it fits in quite fine with the usual standard of the show and it's grandiose methods of characters pulling one over on the other.

The short answer would be that's it's just goofy anime BS as usual. I mean if I really wanted to I could just tear down every single anime out their on the grounds of plausibility of premises as compared with the reality of our own world (and I mean just destroy them at the base level), but I don't because sometimes a show just isn't aiming for 100% realism. This is oh so true with fantasy series like Code Geass.

Originally Posted by azul120

Since my last post was apparently overlooked, why is Suzaku wanting revenge looked at as a motivating factor behind joining ZR? Beyond his "Euphy's murderer" comment, there were NO other inferences. I mean, they became best friends again during the one month skip.

Very straightforward stuff actually. Suzaku realized he could get both the revenge he wanted in being able to kill Lelouch and that in doing so he could accomplish something in the process as far as getting the results he wanted in a less socially stratified world. It wasn't until the very end that he realized that the revenge he so desperately sought wasn't what he truly wanted anymore. It was actually a very well done character resolution in my opinion and while I had compared him to Javert from Les Miserables many time before that point, it wasn't until then that his character finally came to almost the exact same resolution as Javert.

Also I think it's important to clarify that they most certainly were not best friends again, it was strictly business until the very moment of Zero's Requiem. When someone chooses to cooperate with you sometimes it's just because they want the same thing you want, not because they want to be your friend.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Indeed the policies have been shown to be around since long before Charles time in the flashbacks and such. Britannia was by nature a greedy and corrupt society preoccupied with only one thing, power. Even Charles fell into this role in order to be respected, even if he believed it was a falsehood that he'd sooner see abolished if he had the capability to do so without risking getting overthrown himself (this almost happened in one of the side story novels by the way, but I'm not sure if it's canon or not).

I mentioned this to you previously in one of our other back and forths, but Britannia is getting help from the outside in the form of it's cooperation with the U.N.F. You might also call Lelouch's whole Zero no Requiem a form of external pressure that pushed them onto the path of changing their ways, realizing that there could be far worse things then having each other exist and that the competiton between them is nothing but a socially constructed paradigm, which can and had been shifted by Lelouch in his actions as a Tyrant.

As for Schneizel's defeat, simple, it's Code Geass, a series where stranger things have happened, and by the episode I might add. It was well within the level of suspension of disbelief that the series had set for itself previously, and it's not impossible that Lelouch might be able to read Schneizel so well (they have after all had 20 years to get to understand each other through their countless games of chess) that he could form a general response to his quips about the way the future of the world should look. And if you want to argue that that doesn't excuse it I will say that yes it does, because it fits in quite fine with the usual standard of the show and it's grandiose methods of characters pulling one over on the other.

The short answer would be that's it's just goofy anime BS as usual. I mean if I really wanted to I could just tear down every single anime out their on the grounds of plausibility of premises as compared with the reality of our own world (and I mean just destroy them at the base level), but I don't because sometimes a show just isn't aiming for 100% realism. This is oh so true with fantasy series like Code Geass.



Very straightforward stuff actually. Suzaku realized he could get both the revenge he wanted in being able to kill Lelouch and that in doing so he could accomplish something in the process as far as getting the results he wanted in a less socially stratified world. It wasn't until the very end that he realized that the revenge he so desperately sought wasn't what he truly wanted anymore. It was actually a very well done character resolution in my opinion and while I had compared him to Javert from Les Miserables many time before that point, it wasn't until then that his character finally came to almost the exact same resolution as Javert.

Also I think it's important to clarify that they most certainly were not best friends again, it was strictly business until the very moment of Zero's Requiem. When someone chooses to cooperate with you sometimes it's just because they want the same thing you want, not because they want to be your friend.

I don't see how Nunnaly can succeed where Charles failed. Its not like she's a great speaker, or a charasmatic individual

I disagree on the Schneizel department except for Schneizel's defeat at no time did i feel like what Lelouch was doing was impossible given the intelligence level of his opponents or the resources he had. To do what Lelouch did takes Omniscient since Lelouch knew not only what Schneizel would say, but when Schneizel would pause. It easily snapped my suspension of disbelief.

Constructing 1 million Zero suits has nothing on that.

I think the best showing of Lelouch and Suzaku relationship was the picture by Clamp where Lelouch is wearing the kite hat. With Suzaku you have a man wanting to be punished (a masochist) while Lelouch wants to punish people (a sadist) and combined with the reoccuring bondage makes for a nice setup.

Also can you please stop inserting random japanese words especially when it has a different meaning in english.

It's not like you can't put "Zero no Requiem" in english its "Zero's Requiem".

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Also I think it's important to clarify that they most certainly were not best friends again, it was strictly business until the very moment of Zero's Requiem. When someone chooses to cooperate with you sometimes it's just because they want the same thing you want, not because they want to be your friend.

Except it was stated that Suzaku and Lelouch were best friends again during the one-month time skip.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I don't see how Nunnaly can succeed where Charles failed.

And I don't care.....

I disagree on the Schneizel department at no time did i feel like what Lelouch was doing was impossible given the intelligence level of his opponents or the resources he had. To do what Lelouch did takes Omniscient since Lelouch knew not only what Schneizel would say, but when Schneizel would pause. It easily snapped my suspension of disbelief.

At no time did you feel what Lelouch was doing was impossible? Well then it seems we've come to terms rather qucikly on that one eh?

I think the best showing of Lelouch and Suzaku relationship was the picture by Clamp where Lelouch is wearing the kite hat. With Suzaku you have a man wanting to be punished (a masochist) while Lelouch wants to punish people (a sadist) and combined with the reoccuring bondage makes for a nice setup.

Lets leave the 4Chan out of the Anime Suki forums shall we? Your only going to hurt your case if you go down that road.

Also can you please stop inserting random japanese words especially when it has a different meaning in english.

It's not like you can't put "Zero no Requiem" in english its "Zero's Requiem".

Err...Zero no Requiem=Requiem of Zero, which means the exact same thing as Zero's Requiem (which is also what I referred to it as at one point) thanks to the wonders of the English language....or is that the English Language's wonders?

Originally Posted by azul120

Except it was stated that Suzaku and Lelouch were best friends again during the one-month time skip.

Where did it ever stop to say that they were best friends again? I don't recall anything like that ever happening. If you can I'd like a screenshot of this please.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And I don't care.....



At no time did you feel what Lelouch was doing was impossible? Well then it seems we've come to terms rather qucikly on that one eh?

Lets leave the 4Chan out of the Anime Suki forums shall we? Your only going to hurt your case if you go down that road.

Err...Zero no Requiem=Requiem of Zero, which means the exact same thing as Zero's Requiem (which is also what I referred to it as at one point) thanks to the wonders of the English language....or is that the English Language's wonders?

Where did it ever stop to say that they were best friends again? I don't recall anything like that ever happening. If you can I'd like a screenshot of this please.

It was a typo caused by me rewording a portion and forgetting to put back in Schneizel's deafeat" what I mean to say was that "Except for Schneizel's defeat at no time did i feel like what Lelouch was doing was impossible given the intelligence level of his opponents or the resources he had".

The point is that I hate when people put in uneeded Japanese.

In Mutuality it states that Suzaku tries to talk Lelouch out of killing himself, and the whole thing makes it clear that Suzaku and Lelouch are at least best friends. Also CLAMP drew a picture of Suzaku looking at Lelouch and its pretty clear that Suzaku wants to have sex with Lelouch.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

It was a typo caused by me rewording a portion and forgetting to put back in Schneizel's deafeat" what I mean to say was that "Except for Schneizel's defeat at no time did i feel like what Lelouch was doing was impossible given the intelligence level of his opponents or the resources he had".

Meh...okay. That's just your opinion so you are entitled to it.

The point is that I hate when people put in uneeded Japanese.

It actually wasn't intentional, it just sort of happened that way.

In Mutuality it states that Suzaku tries to talk Lelouch out of killing himself, and the whole thing makes it clear that Suzaku and Lelouch are at least best friends. Also CLAMP drew a picture of Suzaku looking at Lelouch and its pretty clear that Suzaku wants to have sex with Lelouch.

Mutuality is by CLAMP. They'll say, write or draw anything if it makes it seem even the slightest bit homoerotic so yeaaaaaaaaah....... It doesn't make any of it canon though. Taniguchi and Okouchi get to decide that sort of thing.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Why does he not, instead of going batshit evil, remain the "good emperor" that freed the world. That would have actually changed the world, instead he breaks it over his knee and then just leaves it to others. We're supposed to believe that this will succeed... why?

Too lazy and too busy to deal with all the rest, anyway, the other guys raised a lot of very good points already, so, just on this...
Because this would have make him in like Charles and Schneizel, and Lelouch didn't want too.
He said it several times he did want to gamble on humanity, so an illuminated tyranny was something he excluded from his plan due to his principles. We might find it stupid, but I feel this at least is a quite motivated choice from his side.

It still stays the fact that ZR is quite of an absurd plan, but Code overall is quite an absurd series... at least in the execution the last arc was one of the best parts of CG R2. What I find inconsistent the most is how the Lelouch VS Charles is resolved, much more than the Emperor Lelouch part...

About Schneizel, I think blade hit the spot when he said that they should have made Lelouch smarter and not Schneizel dumber to make it better.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Meh...okay. That's just your opinion so you are entitled to it.



It actually wasn't intentional, it just sort of happened that way.



Mutuality is by CLAMP. They'll say, write or draw anything if it makes it seem even the slightest bit homoerotic so yeaaaaaaaaah....... It doesn't make any of it canon though. Taniguchi and Okouchi get to decide that sort of thing.

I am pretty sure the Mutuality story was written by Okouchi, and I would never use the picture of Suzaku licking Lelouch's sword in a serious discussion because at no point in time does Suzaku ever come off as blatantly homosexual unlike the picture.

[bladeofdarkness]

ZERO-R falls flat once you rememeber that since the entire point was to create a monster who represents opprestion and tyrany (a figure to direct all the worlds hate against)
and have him killed by a noble hero who would free the world from his tyrany and lead it into a better time
lelouch pretty much did that in ep 21
he killed charlie (who WAS a good hate figure) and declared himself the new emperor
and then started to free the numbers and change the old ways of britannia
and he was pretty much loved by all as a result (except those who liked it under charles)
he didnt need ZERO-R
he already pulled of LELOUCH-R

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

ZERO-R falls flat once you rememeber that since the entire point was to create a monster who represents opprestion and tyrany (a figure to direct all the worlds hate against)
and have him killed by a noble hero who would free the world from his tyrany and lead it into a better time
lelouch pretty much did that in ep 21
he killed charlie (who WAS a good hate figure) and declared himself the new emperor
and then started to free the numbers and change the old ways of britannia
and he was pretty much loved by all as a result (except those who liked it under charles)
he didnt need ZERO-R
he already pulled of LELOUCH-R

You know that's a good point. I didn't even think about it like that.

On a semi-related note. Does anyone think Lelouch might have served the world better by remaining Emperor?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by yvj

Does anyone think Lelouch might have served the world better by remaining Emperor?

Dumb question when Charred Knight's concerned, dontcha think? I mean, he's only been spouting "Everyone in the entire world except for Lelouch is useless" for several months now.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by yvj

You know that's a good point. I didn't even think about it like that.

On a semi-related note. Does anyone think Lelouch might have served the world better by remaining Emperor?

As Rising Dragon said below, I whole heartly think that they should have gone with the Lelouch as Emperor route. The whole problem started with the Black Knights rebelling forcing Lelouch to use mass brainwashing, which is where the problems really started. Even then they could have fixed it by making Lelouch less of an ass, and come up with some sane plan that doesn't involve killing the one person who has the best chance of fixing the world.

Xingke is dying, and as I have mentioned several times I don't think Schneizel is a good leader or all that sane really. The three loli characters are also too young to really come off like the leaders needed to rebuild the world.

I would have kept the plot much simpler instead of trying to come up with some new plot twist that derails certain characters or just plain doesn't make sense like the Black Knights abandoning Lelouch on the grounds of morality, and then hooking up with Schneizel who has his own Doom Fortress;.

Either that or keep the same ending, but end it with Kaguya in the Gurren Mark II, Nunnaly in the Lancelot Albion, and Tianzi in the Shenhu fighting to the death for rule of the world.

Kaguya: There can only be ONE!


Looking back I can understand where Okouchi was trying to go but theirs really two problems

1. What Lelouch was trying to do needs to be setup by having the Black Knights become the new leaders, which means they have to setup the Black Knights as leaders. By R2 the only person leading the Black Knights was lelouch with Todoh and Ougi only giving the occasional order that really didn't accomplish anything. Simply put the entire sucess of the Black Knights is due to Kallen and Lelouch. Ypou remove Lelouch and the only person who accomplished anything was Kallen, and she's just a soldier.
2. Lelouch has some really obssesive fans, I mean really obssesive, They come up with nonsensical ideas like "what Okouchi really meant by Lelouch is dead is that Lelouch died but was reborn as R.R." They denounce anyone who gets in Lelouch's way as evil, and pretty much see the man as the Japanese version of Batman and Superman rolled into one. Everything he does is badass and the most awesome thing ever, and everything he does is perfect and his a saint.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Dumb question when Charred Knight's concerned, dontcha think? I mean, he's only been spouting "Everyone in the entire world except for Lelouch is useless" for several months now.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Mutuality is by CLAMP. They'll say, write or draw anything if it makes it seem even the slightest bit homoerotic so yeaaaaaaaaah....... It doesn't make any of it canon though. Taniguchi and Okouchi get to decide that sort of thing.

The problem was that this section was written by Okouchi, but it introduces a problem that we've somewhat dancing with for a while in this discussion. Suzaku and Lelouch being best friends, throws a complete gear into how he is acting during ZR. It is non-sensical, which leaves me to say that the Mutuality mumbo was nothing but fan-service even if he wrote it.

... I'll get the rest when I get back from breakfast.

[Levy]

@yvj: As I said before, I think Lelouch didn't want to remain Emperor to begin with and in any case, the way he took over Britannia - crushing its 'order' completely with force - could not lead the Empire to any stable condition but that of a strict tyranny. So - my answer is -no, he wouldn't.
Sure thing, if Charlie had been less of dumbhead and kept his son with him after the assasination of Marianne, Lelouch would have grown up as a wonderfull politician and bla bla bla.. but unfornutaley that's not the story we are talking about.

@blade: good points, but see, Charles' evilness was not something acknowledged by the masses and despite all, he was not hated enough. Some of Britannian people still helds loyalty toward him, while Zero/Lelouch has lost all of his credibility and support he had from his side by the time the defeat of Charles occurred - and it occurred in a way it's impossible to make people believe where Charles's foolishness would have let them: too much esoteric crap and not enough witnesses.
So, no, I think that the deafeat of Charles wasn't enough to make Lelouch a hero, due to the extent and the way he suppressed the opposition in his country - no matter that said opposiotion might be quite a shit - was something that could not lead to a the establishment of a real peace.
Moreover, Lelouch did not want the hero (the waltz) to lead the world in the end, just to take him out of the waltz and leave the rest to the others...

EDIT: Charred_Knight, I buy your lolis-fight of doom immediately... *_*
EDITX2: Frost, I can't honestly recall if there was something this inconceivable in what is written in Mutuality. And, according to how much you've roared about people denying canon materials when it doesn't fit our own perception of the characters, you'd better take back that 'fanservice' line of yours before my newlywedd soulmates start to throw stones and awesomehats and cats and whatever at you! =PPPP

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Levy

@yvj: As I said before, I think Lelouch didn't want to remain Emperor to begin with and in any case, the way he took over Britannia - crushing its 'order' completely with force - could not lead the Empire to any stable condition but that of a strict tyranny. So - my answer is -no, he wouldn't.
Sure thing, if Charlie had been less of dumbhead and kept his son with him after the assasination of Marianne, Lelouch would have grown up as a wonderfull politician and bla bla bla.. but unfornutaley that's not the story we are talking about.

@blade: good points, but see, Charles' evilness was not something acknowledged by the masses and despite all, he was not hated enough. Some of Britannian people still helds loyalty toward him, while Zero/Lelouch has lost all of his credibility and support he had from his side by the time the defeat of Charles occurred - and it occurred in a way it's impossible to make people believe where Charles's foolishness would have let them: too much esoteric crap and not enough witnesses.
So, no, I think that the deafeat of Charles wasn't enough to make Lelouch a hero, due to the extent and the way he suppressed the opposition in his country - no matter that said opposiotion might be quite a shit - was something that could not lead to a the establishment of a real peace.
Moreover, Lelouch did not want the hero (the waltz) to lead the world in the end, just to take him out of the waltz and leave the rest to the others...

EDIT: Charred_Knight, I buy your lolis-fight of doom immediately... *_*

Let's be blunt the same people who root for Charles will hate Nunnaly

I mean are we seriously supposed to believe that the same people who kept on going on about how superior Britannia is are all of a sudden going to start rooting for Nunnaly as she makes peace with the rest of the world?

They stopped being racist because of Lelouch's actions? That makes no sense, the people who where sensible people like say the KoR might follow Nunnaly, but not the hardcore "ALL HAIL BRITANNIA" British Nazi guy.

[bladeofdarkness]

its also inconcivable that the people of the UFN would stop hating britannia after the BRITANNIAN EMPEROR conquered and islaved them
that this evil overlords little sister is now the NEW emperess and the world ACCEPTS THIS is even more mind numbing
you'd expect the world to say "this is where the "britannia" family stops being incharge of britannia and we start a democracy (the father was very bad, but his son turned out even WORSE, maybe it runs in the family)

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Let's be blunt the same people who root for Charles will hate Nunnaly

I mean are we seriously supposed to believe that the same people who kept on going on about how superior Britannia is are all of a sudden going to start rooting for Nunnaly as she makes peace with the rest of the world?

They stopped being racist because of Lelouch's actions? That makes no sense, the people who where sensible people like say the KoR might follow Nunnaly, but not the hardcore "ALL HAIL BRITANNIA" British Nazi guy.

Hmmmm

Got to say you make some valid points. You might be me swaying here.

@ Levy I'm sure Lelouch deep down doesn't really want to die either. ZR wasn't about what he wanted but the good of the world. Through his tyranny didn't he completely reform the greatest and largest Empire on the planet? And Knight has a point in asking why would the people accept Nunnaly, why wouldn't they reject everything Lelouch changed and try and go back to the successful empire they had before that was kicking ass?

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Levy

EDITX2: Frost, I can't honestly recall if there was something this inconceivable in what is written in Mutuality. And, according to how much you've roared about people denying canon materials when it doesn't fit our own perception of the characters, you'd better take back that 'fanservice' line of yours before my newlywedd soulmates start to throw stones and awesomehats and cats and whatever at you! =PPPP

Look carefully. I wasn't denouncing canon. Canon can be fan-service, a large part of the canon in R2 was fanservice (Turn 5?). I did not deny the material, I simply said it was a stupid addition given what the show presented. The only moment in which they act like good friends is as he kills him, within the flashback that can only have happened right before the event. Adding in that they were all buddy-buddy before taking over and acting as they acted, is a bit of a stretch of believability.

Don't think you'll catch me at my own game.