2011-09-27, 10:51 | Link #24641 | |
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2011-09-27, 11:01 | Link #24642 |
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The game cuts off after that anyways, for all we know Jessica is dead in the corner of a room, having tripped face first on a pointy table. Seriously, lets say Eva was actually a murderer in this case, do you think Jessica could have hidden somewhere that Eva couldn't reach?
It couldnt have been far, it was a few steps from what I remember. If it was far enough to elude her then chances are Eva would return to see George's fat ass not crushing Shannon and would certainly find it suspicious. |
2011-09-27, 11:52 | Link #24643 | |
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It doesn't fit, then again this seems to be a game where time and space can be circumvented and scenes happen instantly in a vacuum. |
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2011-09-27, 13:26 | Link #24645 |
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Regarding shenanigans:
- Kyrie's call came immediately after Jessica's. - Beato's call came immediately after Kyrie's. - Kyrie and Jessica were found on opposite ends of the house. - Battler got the impression that someone else was in the room with Beato during her call. From a logistics standpoint, the easiest way to do this would be to have everybody in the same room calling from the same phone one after the other. Then they could split up to go to their respective rooms afterward. Bonus effect: everyone in the background gets to snicker at Battler freaking out. You could instead have Jessica call Kyrie when she's finished to let her know it's her turn, and then Kyrie could call Beato (or Beato could be in the same room as Kyrie and reuse that phone), but that seems excessively complicated.
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2011-09-27, 13:41 | Link #24646 | |
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2011-09-27, 13:51 | Link #24647 | ||
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Its about as crazy as hoping your boyfriend and Battler dont go looking for your corpse inside a shed. Yasu had countermeasures prepared for that, it was Hideyoshi. If something like the taped calls happened then such preparations where taken as well, as I went in details about their structure and how vague they where. Then again this Quote:
Somewhere between the call and 6am |
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2011-09-27, 14:06 | Link #24648 |
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As for getting people to record their lines, how about, before the first phone call (from the jail cell), "This has to come off right. We'd better practice our lines a few times first." Record the lines and play them back immediately. Everybody cracks up about some goof. By the time they're recording Kyrie's final phone call, nobody notices the tape recorder any more.
Definition: An innocent accomplice is a person who acts falsely to help the killer, but doesn't realize that murder is involved. My real problem is that most of the statements made were things that Battler would be unable to verify until after his test was over. (Anything inside; also, the locations of Krauss, Shannon, and Nanjo's bodies would require him to go out of the way, so he'd be unlikely to verify it.) An innocent accomplice could make those statements and believe them credible to Battler. The big exception is Jessica's claim about George's death. Why didn't she point out "Battler's going through the arbor on the way here. Won't he notice the absence of a dead George?"
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2011-09-27, 15:02 | Link #24650 | |
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Can things like this really be predicted ahead of time?
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2011-09-27, 15:06 | Link #24651 | |
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Spoiler for Frothing (large):
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2011-09-27, 15:11 | Link #24652 |
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Mentioned in one of my previous posts. The lines preceding Battler 's " Run!" response where made to panic him, of course he's gonna reply with something like " Get away from there" or "Hide!" or "Run!" all of which can be answered with "Where to?"
And the lines preceding Battler's breakdown where all about magical fantasy thing that shouldn't be possible. So Battler will almost certainly respond with " This is impossible" "Thats unbelievable" "You're lying". All of which can be answered with Kyrie's response. |
2011-09-27, 15:15 | Link #24653 |
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I understand this, the issue is the time gap. Battler analyzes Maria's corpse at around 6am. He spots it the day before, but he doesnt perform a detailed check till he came back from his raged induced insomnia fest. Spit would eventually dry itself fairly quickly so why is he still capable of detecting the bubbles more than 6 hours after her death?
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2011-09-27, 15:29 | Link #24654 | |||
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Haha, it is a response to your position, but I'm not trying to be mean-spirited. I apologize if it came off that way.
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EP4 had at the very least Gohda and Kumasawa as collaborators, but I think not Kyrie (at least not with regards to the last phone call, anyway). I'm not so sure about Jessica, though. Krauss maybe. And of course Nanjo and Genji are also suspicious as usual. |
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2011-09-27, 15:47 | Link #24655 |
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I guess we just disagree in that element. I think the tape method in terms of mystery shenanigans is more ideal and feels less like cheating in Umineko than having Yasu pull successful mimicry twice in rapid succession on the same person. ^^
Then again I also think that Yasu pulling off successful possum twice in EP3 was far fetched and RK07 played it straight sooo...! |
2011-09-27, 16:51 | Link #24656 | ||
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Voice mimicry vs trickery
In Umineko we aren't given clues about someone being capable of voice mimicry. Lambda talks about everyone being able to change the voice tone so as to sound a different person but no one is mentioned to be able to mimicry someone else's voice. However real life prove you don't really need to possess this skill to trick someone else. Years ago people organized a fraud in which one of them would show in front of you saying he was your son/daughter/brother/sister/father/mother's friend and that your relatice had sent him to you because he needed you to lend him some money. Of course no one would believe a random stranger over this so he would invite you to phone to your relative to check if this was true. You'll do but due to some electronical trick your phone call wouldn't reach your relative but that guy's accomplice who would fake being your relative, confirm the guy's story and urge you to hand him the money because he's really in need and you're the only one who can help him. Otherwise he'll fail to make a business/pay something/insert random excuse here. Now, the accomplice wouldn't even try to mimicry the victim's relative voice but the victim of the fraud would usually be so persuaded he had talked with his relative they rarely would notice the different voice or the different way to talk, unless it was really, really marked (some realized they were tricked due to their relative having normally a really thick accent or some original way to speak). So in Ep 5 Someone likely phoned to Natsuhi using a different voice tone. It was a pretty neutral one because Natsuhi can't get an idea of with whom she's talking. Quote:
I wonder if Natsuhi's first impression about the speaker being a man is due to how the sentence was in Japanese (I've been told males and females have different types of speech). However by the end of the call Natsuhi is scared to death but likely didn't spend enough time on the phone to be able to recognize the voice that spoke to her with certainity. After this things get really stressful for her so if someone else were to tell her he/she is the one who called her previously, as long as his manner to speak and tone weren't completely different, she would easily fall for it. On the other side, by the time of the third phonecall, she would be so upset she might fail to realize she didn't hear Kanon's voice, just Gohda's here: Quote:
(It's also possible the man from 19 years ago was someone else or existed only in Natsuhi's mind... if I'm not wrong Lambda refused to confirm the first phone call as real... however the following phone calls gave Natsuhi precise details on what to do that caused her to get herself in trouble and knowledge Krauss had been kidnapped so I'm not going to believe the calls never took place...) Now Ep 4. Could people be tricked on the phone as well? Let's see. In the first call we have: Krauss talking with Gohda and Jessica Kirye talking with Battler Shannon talking with George Kanon talking with Jessica Nanjo talking with Kumasawa. In the second call we have: Kirye talking with Geroge, Battler and Jessica In the third call we have: Shannon talking with Maria and George In the forth call we have: Jessica talking with Battler In the fifth call we have: Kirye talking with Battler In the sixth call we have: Beatrice talking with Maria and Battler. So basically Krauss and Nanjo' voices were heard only in the first call by someone and Battler heard through the phone only Kirye and Jessica. Would Jessica being tricked into thinking her father was on the phone? If the one tricking her was an adult male maybe... but I think it would be harder with Yasu trying to fake Krauss' voice. There's likely too much difference between the two voices. Would Battler be tricked into thinking Jessica was on the phone when in truth it was someone else? It's possible he would be tricked. Like Natsuhi before, he's not in a calm state, for six years he hadn't seen Jessica and now he had spent less than a day with her so it's possible he hadn't memorized her voice well yet. If the person speaking were to use her same manner to speak he might have been tricked. It would be hard to trick him with Kirye as he likely knows her voice and manner to speak better than Yasu, although he's definitely very upset and he's accepting that Kirye is saying very OOC things. So in Ep 4 is theoretically possible to trick Battler with 'fake voices'. However in Ep 4 it'll be a lot more simple to persuade the others it's a game (or promise them the gold or pretend it's Kinzo that's asking them to play this game) and have them play the role of accomplices. It'll also help with moving corpses around. Same thing with the tapes. Even if it might be possible to record a tape predicting the other's response and trick Jessica & Kirye to do it I think the chances it'll work are too low. Maybe Yasu would risk it in Ep 5 if she really had to persuade Natsuhi she's not behind the phone calls, because it's possible that Natsuhi knows that Shannon and Kanon are the same person and, due to the season trick, she might be aware she might have attracted Natsuhi's suspicions so it would be useful not to let Natsuhi know she's behind the phone calls, but for Ep 4 she definitely had better ways to trick Battler. |
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2011-09-27, 17:21 | Link #24657 | |
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Basically Lambda spoke twice and the second time she spoke she gave the red truth confirming Natsuhi, Krauss and Genji's position and the one confirming the people in the dining hall. Sure, red truth can trick people but here it really seem to really imply Natsuhi & Co being in the corridor at the same time in which the others were in the dining room. Also the narrative not only says it's midnight but said the large clock (in the dining room) rang out 24:00 as if to imply that it's really exactly 24:00 not more or less 24:00. So, while I agree it's possible that the 24:00 used in regard to the cousins means more or less around 24:00, everything in Ep 5 seems to imply that while Natsuhi and Co were in the corridor the others were in the dining room and everything was taking place at 24:00. And anyway Natsuhi was informed about the call while she was in the corridor with Krauss. He couldn't be watching the others making the call and, at the same time, being in the corridor with Natsuhi. As I said at best he returned in the dining room while the call was taking place but he couldn't be there when it started. |
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2011-09-27, 20:16 | Link #24658 | |
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2011-09-27, 21:00 | Link #24659 |
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Random question, but in the red truth, .........To go even further, at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive., was there any real need for "Genji was also alive."?
I would take the previous sentence to mean that Genji was alive. It's probably nothing, but it's always bothered me how it felt kind of tagged on the end, there. Wa there a need for clarification that I had missed? <_< |
2011-09-27, 21:29 | Link #24660 | |||
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'Kay, so I've reviewed some of the stuff in question.
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If I could get even one sensible theory that address these issues as well as somehow make sense in the context of Willard's big reveal ("Silent corpses adorned with fiction"), I could change my mind on the whole vocal impression deal. I also noticed something really interesting about Jessica's phone call with Battler: "They really aren't opponents you can fight with that hat-stand spear you're so proud of." So even supposing Jessica's voice was recorded, it could only have been done at some point after she left the guest house. We're talking about a 30-minute or so window. On the other hand, if it was vocal mimicry then Yasu would've had to learn about the hat-stand somehow, which is possible, but requires some theorizing. Jessica is free from the "Silent Corpses" thing, but from a thematic angle Jessica was dead before her phone call with Battler anyway. Even Ronove said so. Here's a little timeline. 11:00 (exactly?) Phone call from Krauss about locking Gohda and Kumasawa -The two are locked inside -Phone call from Kyrie about explaining tests 11:08 Phone call from Shannon about George's test 11:12 Jessica arrives at her room -Jessica and George's tests (fiction) -Escape from Kuwadorian (fiction) -Phone call from Jessica -Phone call from Kyrie 11:47 Phone call from Beatrice Quote:
Krauss talking with Jessica Kyrie talking with Battler I would like to point out how the call starts: The phone rings and Gohda picks up the phone exclaiming surprise that Krauss is on the other end. So Jessica would start to expect to hear Krauss. Even if his voice sounded a little off, she may just unconsciously brush it off. Of course, when Battler gets his turn with Kyrie, he has the same expectations. Still, what Krauss says is never in any way strange in the hypothetical context of him being directly threatened, so *shrug*. Quote:
You missed a call. The second call was Krauss with instructions that there would be a test and to lock up Gohda and Kumasawa. The explanation of how the heir test would actually work was the third call. |
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