[Manga] Naruto Final Chapter

[cyberdemon]

all this talk of "Hinata can be easily replaced by any other character in that scene" is stupid. Fact of the matter is, at that point Hinata was the ONLY person who jumped in to save him.

[SoloPanda]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

all this talk of "Hinata can be easily replaced by any other character in that scene" is stupid. Fact of the matter is, at that point Hinata was the ONLY person who jumped in to save him.

That is the point I've been trying to make but somehow it got interpreted as a hypothetical situation... I'm not sure what happened in the story is hypothetical and everyone's speculation that it could easily have been someone else isn't.

[Alena_92]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

all this talk of "Hinata can be easily replaced by any other character in that scene" is stupid. Fact of the matter is, at that point Hinata was the ONLY person who jumped in to save him.

agree.. hinata was the Only person and the Only person who will jump in.. by chance or by choice..

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

all this talk of "Hinata can be easily replaced by any other character in that scene" is stupid. Fact of the matter is, at that point Hinata was the ONLY person who jumped in to save him.

you're completely missing the point. the discussion is about the fight between naruto and pain. of course hinata jumped in to save naruto. nobody is saying she didn't. the question is whether or not naruto can be said to have won the fight based on her interference.

[SoloPanda]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you're completely missing the point. the discussion is about the fight between naruto and pain. of course hinata jumped in to save naruto. nobody is saying she didn't. the question is whether or not naruto can be said to have won the fight based on her interference.

the way I read it naruto was out of commission and the fight was over. Pain said "time to go" and started doing something with his hand. That's when Hinata stepped in. So I guess in the end it depends on if you determine that whatever Pain was about to do with his hand would have been the end for Naruto. If you see it as once Pain finished moving his hands They'd be gone and Naruto would be having his Kyuubi extracted then he wouldn't have won without her interference. Also if you interpret it as just another move that may have released the Kyuubi then it was just her getting in the way of what was going to happen anyway.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by SoloPanda

the way I read it naruto was out of commission and the fight was over. Pain said "time to go" and started doing something with his hand. That's when Hinata stepped in. So I guess in the end it depends on if you determine that whatever Pain was about to do with his hand would have been the end for Naruto. If you see it as once Pain finished moving his hands They'd be gone and Naruto would be having his Kyuubi extracted then he wouldn't have won without her interference. Also if you interpret it as just another move that may have released the Kyuubi then it was just her getting in the way of what was going to happen anyway.

typically when someone helps someone win a fight they have a direct effect on the opposing fighter. even if that doesn't happen, then they should at least help their friend in a way their friend couldn't have done themselves. naruto going kyuubi mode was entirely up to him, even after hinata got stabbed. he was resolved not to go kyuubi mode, but he did go kyuubi mode on his own eventually. it's not like hinata directly helped him transform. it was indirect

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

naruto going kyuubi mode was entirely up to him

No it wasn't. It happened against his will. It was out of his control. And if Hinata hadn't come, it wouldn't have happened, and Nagato would have won. So even if Hinata couldn't help directly, her intervention was still the key factor that allowed Naruto to avoid getting caught.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No it wasn't. It happened against his will.

what are you talking about? with that logic nobody is responsible for anything.

"he didn't mean to go on a killing spree, he was just angry"


i could easily flip this argument on you guys by continuing to mention that nagato is using madara's eyes. without rinnegan he wouldn't have stood a chance against naruto (or jiraiya for that matter)

[Kazu-kun]

^ You're making no sense. At the time Naruto didn't have control on the kyuubi. That's why he needed a seal to contain the kyuubi. But when Nagato "killed" Hinata, Naruto's rage was such that the seal broke, and the kyuubi took over. This happen against Naruto's will. Note that he only managed to turn back to human form after Minato fixed the seal. Naruto didn't have control whatsoever.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

^ You're making no sense. At the time Naruto didn't have control on the kyuubi. That's why he needed a seal to contain the kyuubi. But when Nagato "killed" Hinata, Naruto's rage was such that the seal broke, and the kyuubi took over. This happen against Naruto's will. Note that he only managed to turn back to human form after Minato fixed the seal. Naruto didn't have control whatsoever.

naruto had no control while in kyuubi mode, but before he went kyuubi mode he had the choice to remain calm

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

before he went kyuubi mode he had the choice to remain calm

That's not how emotions work.

Besides that's irrelevant. Your point was that Naruto would have been able to get away on his own, right? But that's not true. He managed to get away because he went kyuubi mode and that's not something he would have been able to do at will at that point. So without Hinata he would have been fucked.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not how emotions work.

you have no idea what you're talking about. there is a concept called "control over one's emotions" which naruto was using prior to hinata's interference to refrain from going kyuubi mode

Besides that's irrelevant. Your point was that Naruto would have been able to get away on his own, right? But that's not true. He managed to get away because he went kyuubi mode and that's not something he would have been able to do at will at that point. So without Hinata he would have been fucked.

all he had to do was give in to anger over pain killing jiraiya, kakashi or destroying konoha. you're just being purposefully dense i hope

kakashi was literally killed minutes prior to this event. that is more motivation for naruto to get upset than losing hinata

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you have no idea what you're talking about. there is a concept called "control over one's emotions" which naruto was using prior to hinata's interference to refrain from going kyuubi mode

Which just goes to show how much it shocked him what happened to Hinata. Either way, it's a fact that he couldn't control himself at that moment. Otherwise he wouldn't have gone kyuubi mode. It was completely involuntary.

all he had to do was give in to anger over pain killing jiraiya, kakashi or destroying konoha.

Why would he do that? He can't control the kyuubi so, as far as he's concerned, it would only make things worse.

What happened is what you call a happy coincidence. Naruto was going to get captured by Pain. He already had, basically. And he wasn't going to go kyuubi no matter what, since the potential danger was too great. So pain had the battle won already. Then Hinata showed up and everything changed. She got "killed" and Naruto involuntarily went kyuubi mode despite himself, which somehow ended playing in Naruto's favor.

In other words, it was all thanks to Hinata, and without her, Pain would have won. He already had, actually.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Why would he do that? He can't control the kyuubi so, as far as he's concerned, it would only make things worse.

whats worse than konoha's only hope getting captured and killed? not to mention pain would probably kill everyone in the village afterward. going kyuubi mode to break free from pain's shackles was the only card naruto had left. hinata just made him use it earlier than he would have on his own

And he wasn't going to go kyuubi no matter what, since the potential danger was too great.

obviously that's not true. if it were, he still wouldn't have gone kyuubi. if naruto was TRULY resigned to pain's philosophy then watching hinata die wouldn't have changed anything. but he was still the same emotional naruto as always

In other words, it was all thanks to Hinata, and without her, Pain would have won. He already had, actually.

the same way pain had 'won' after using chibaku tensei only to have kyuubi naruto break out of that as well? no, the fact of the matter is that naruto could have broken free by himself by unleashing the kyuubi which is a better outcome than everyone being at pain's mercy and akatsuki getting the kyuubi

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

whats worse than getting captured and killed? not to mention pain would probably kill everyone in the village afterward. going kyuubi mode to break free from pain's shackles was the only card naruto had left. hinata just forced him to use it earlier than he would have on his own

I disagree. I think it's pretty clear he wouldn't have used it. Just see his reactions when he turns back to human form. He immediately asks whether he killed anyone from the village, and when he's told he didn't, he cries out of relief. That shows he's very conscious of the potential danger, so I seriously doubt he would have used it voluntarily.

obviously that's not true. if it were, he still wouldn't have gone kyuubi.

No because that was involuntary. He didn't mean too. He snapped and couldn't control his emotions.

the fact of the matter naruto could have broken free by unleashing the kyuubi which is a better outcome than everyone being at pain's mercy and akatsuki getting the kyuubi

You're assuming he would have gone kyuubi mode voluntarily, but that's not a fact. We really don't know for sure what he would have done, but it's heavily suggested he wouldn't have relied on the kyuubi no matter what, because he's very conscious of the potential danger, as shown by his reaction when turns back to human form.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

whats worse than konoha's only hope getting captured and killed? not to mention pain would probably kill everyone in the village afterward. going kyuubi mode to break free from pain's shackles was the only card naruto had left. hinata just made him use it earlier than he would have on his own

did you see the same pain as i did? he isnt some kind of brainless murderer, he didnt even wanted to kill the anyone in the village, but they didnt do what he waned :/
after capturing naruto he would go away, unless they try to stop him, which would cause the death of them :/

and, the whole argument is somehow strange, naruto never won against pain alone... the village already made him use much chakra with shinra tensei and other stuff
+ the whole kyuubi-ex-machina was one hell of a helpful hand, he not only didnt kill anyone, but weakened nagato to a hugh extent and it restored his chakra

he had a hugh amount of help in his fight....

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

did you see the same pain as i did? he isnt some kind of brainless murderer, he didnt even wanted to kill the anyone in the village, but they didnt do what he waned :/

haha. ok. yes he was an absolute angel unless someone didn't do what he wanted...

after he finds out where naruto is does he go on his merry way? no, he makes a self-aggrandized statement to konoha's leader and then obliterates her village with a shinra tensei

i think this conversation has been milked as much as it can. bottom line of my point is that in the naruto vs pain fight naruto beat all 7 pains with physicality and mentality of his own. hinata did step in and alter naruto's mindset. and to me that isn't enough to strip naruto of the title of victor.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

haha. ok. yes he was an absolute angel unless someone didn't do what he wanted...

after he finds out where naruto is does he go on his merry way? no, he makes a self-aggrandized statement to konoha's leader and then obliterates her village with a shinra tensei

i think this conversation has been milked as much as it can. bottom line of my point is that in the naruto vs pain fight naruto beat all 7 pains with physicality and mentality of his own. hinata did step in and alter naruto's mindset. and to me that isn't enough to strip naruto of the title of victor.

Good, everyone his own Pain

Well, but i need to differ, i already mentioned why naruto didnt win on his own, and what was his help , the village who previously fought pain, the kyuubi-ex machina which saved his a*s...... so, naruto didnt defeat pain alone -_-

[Man of Sin]

The ending was bad(rushed through things that should have gotten full chapters, Sakura BS, Sasuke pardon). Epilogue was okay though.

[db84x]

Originally Posted by Man of Sin

The ending was bad(rushed through things that should have gotten full chapters, Sakura BS, Sasuke pardon). Epilogue was okay though.

Kishi don't have confindence on writing romance, so he ask Studio Pierrot to help him.