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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 96 | 56.47% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 58 | 34.12% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 10 | 5.88% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 6 | 3.53% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-02-12, 23:22 | Link #421 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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Being enough to be considered something doesn't mean it definitely is something. Is English your second or third language? There seems to be a language barrier here.
For example, A square is a quadrilateral with four right angles. Knowing that a polygon satisfies these conditions is enough for us to consider the possibility that it is a square but it might not be one. It could be a rectangle whose perpendicular sides are not even. Edit: I wouldn't be half so defensive if you wrote in a less aggressive manner. You needlessly attack the other poster. Did you really have to imply I was being sexist when I wrote, "emotionally broken little girls" even though it was a perfectly within the context of the story? |
2011-02-12, 23:28 | Link #422 |
Banned
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Must you continually question if there is some issue with someone else? Could not the possibility be that you aren't being clear enough, or understanding what is being said?
I understand, though. We all think we are coming across clearly, but the problem with communication is that everyone receives everything differently. So if there is an issue, then we can work on clarifying and getting to the root of the problem. Or we can just accuse other people of problems. It is the easier choice. |
2011-02-12, 23:30 | Link #423 | ||
Me at work
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What everybody including QB also knows is that Madoka doesn't want to be one,so how do you get her to be one?You create a situation you can take advantage of (= you get madoka to accept being a magical girl). What is that situation?Needing to save her friend's life.Madoka is a very kind girl who would definatly try to stop her friend from getting killed,and she has only one option to do that:become a magical girl. QB knows this that's why he jumps on the occasion (kyoko fighting sayaka) to create another occasision,the one he wants:madoka witnessing that fight. Quote:
when withholding information is counterproductive and doesn't help you reach your stated goal at all (Homura's case) no it's not,it is however intriguing,or a major brainfart. Maybe others have,but I certainly don't view Kyube as evil just because I think he's manipulative,to me that just means I wouldn't trust him,like I wouldn't trust the character L from death note to be telling me the whole truth even if I'm working with him.
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2011-02-12, 23:40 | Link #424 |
Guess what time it is?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Age: 38
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I find myself intrigued by Kyoko's "relationship advice" to Sayaka. In no uncertain terms, she says that the best way to get what she wants is to do the exact opposite of what Sayaka did, and injure her potential love interest so that he "needs" her. I know this was to rile up Sayaka, but I see the potential for foreshadowing something that I know others have already predicted.
It's established that Kyoko's got the right attitude for surviving in the world that the characters find themselves in. Cynicism rules the day for the most part. Because of this I'm now with the camp that predicts Kamijo will quickly lose whatever interest he may have had in Sayaka now that he's independent. It's probably already happened, she just doesn't know it yet. I do wonder though, if/when Sayaka does realize that she's lost him, how stoically will she take it? A scorned MG who feels she's lost everything and gained nothing could be tragically dangerous to both of them. However, if her wish was legitimately selfless, there's a lot of ways that they could go with it, depending on how closely they want to keep with the spirit of Goethe's Faust. Unless that too is a red herring. So I guess what I'm trying to say is... uh... *throws arms up in the air* See ya next week, I guess. |
2011-02-12, 23:43 | Link #425 | ||||
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Manipulation also implies a heavy-handedness, and that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along. The problem with that, is then you remove personal responsibility from the equation. We are each responsible for our choices. It was up to Sayaka and Madoka to decide what they wanted to do. It was up to them to ask for more information (and I've been calling them stupid for awhile now, for not grilling Kyube). Instead, John is making it sound like Madoka and Sayaka are helpless before Kyube. If they truly were, Madoka would have become an MG in the second episode. Face it, he's just not the suave talker he's being made out to be. If he was so good, he'd have Madoka by now. But she's making her own choices, just as Sayaka is. Quote:
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2011-02-12, 23:44 | Link #426 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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The word enough in the context I used implies what I meant in the example with the squares and rectangles does that clear everything up? The fact that Kyube only uses words does not suggest in either way that Kyube manipulated or did not manipulate anyone. Is that easier to understand? I apologize if my writing style is confusing. |
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2011-02-12, 23:49 | Link #427 | |
Banned
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A salesman will be quite honest that he wants to sell you a TV. And he may tell you on several different occasions that he can sell you one cheap. Is he being manipulative? I have a feeling you will say yes, but I'd have to say no. He's being honest about what he wants. We take it one further, and I finally decide to buy a TV from him, and so take the one he points out. Later on, I discover that the remote control only works from 5 feet away, and I get upset that I wasn't told that. But whose fault is it? The salesman for not telling me? Or me for not doing proper research on what I'm buying? If I take that TV back and complain, they aren't legally obliged to take it back. The courts will say that I bought and paid for it, and I can't just take the transaction back. The salesman didn't manipulate me, nor do any wrong. |
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2011-02-13, 00:19 | Link #428 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Confirmed it seems, Walpurgis night is indeed the prolog in episode 1:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brocken_spectre (see pic above) Walpurgis Night (in German folklore) the night of 30 April (May Day's eve), when witches meet on the Brocken mountain and hold revels with their gods... Brocken is the highest of the Harz Mountains of north central Germany. It is noted for the phenomenon of the Brocken spectre and for witches' revels which reputedly took place there on Walpurgis night. —Oxford Phrase & Fable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night
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2011-02-13, 00:29 | Link #429 | ||||||
Me at work
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edit: I actually don't quite agree with the statement "that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along." but rather that the target is in a state of mind where he/she thinks that they have no choice but to go along but that might or might not be the case. Quote:
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Last edited by totoum; 2011-02-13 at 00:39. |
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2011-02-13, 00:35 | Link #430 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Galactic Fairy Fanclub
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2011-02-13, 00:56 | Link #431 | |
Photomancy Experiments
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
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Spoiler for Card Captor Sakura:
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2011-02-13, 01:18 | Link #432 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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My usual use of manipulation is an act where you subtly and actively influence someone to do a particular action, which they wouldn't do under normal circumstances. So in this case a sales pitch can be a form of manipulation but it depends on the situation. (I'll note again. I don't necessarily use the word manipulation in a negative light.) If you approach him asking for a TV that meets A, B and C specifications and he suggests a few that meet those specs then he is merely giving you information. If you come in with no expectations but you still want to buy a TV he would merely be advising you on your purchase. However, say he happens to meet a technologically illiterate couple and he quickly catches on. They tell him they want a TV under <$500 but using technobabble (all true) he eventually convinces them to to buy one for $1000. That is an act of manipulation because he is aggressively influencing their opinion by taking advantage of the lack of technological knowledge. Now, he might be a sweet fellow who is looking to support his siblings because his parents died, and this might be the best purchase the couple has made within the last 5 years. But to me none of that is relevant because he is intentionally manipulating their original desire into his own. Note that I make clear distinctions between the action, desire and end result. Here his action is talking (all truthful), his desire is to manipulate their opinion into a monetary gain, and the end result is that everyone is happy. |
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2011-02-13, 02:10 | Link #433 | |
One PUNCH!
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Add in a helping of persistence and being able to wait patiently for the right moment to appear makes him a worthy opponent to be wary of. |
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2011-02-13, 02:11 | Link #434 | |||||||||||
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I live in the US, so perhaps it has shaped my viewpoint to see people suing each other over stupid things, such as someone suing because their coffee was hot. That's why we have stupid disclaimers such as a "Do not eat" label on hammers. Whenever something bad happens, someone will sue. A golfer was on a golfing range and hit his golf ball, which rebounded off a pole and hit him in the head. He is now suing the owners of the golf course. The owners didn't tell him that little detail of how the pole could reflect balls back at him. If you persist in blaming Kyube and calling Madoka helpless, you're setting up the exact same kind of atmosphere we have in the US: "It is always someone else's fault, no matter how stupid I was." Quote:
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The second when Kyoko showed up. Kyube was pushing it, but he was quite correct that only another MG could get between them. Again, it was Madoka's choice to go along. Most of the rest of the time, he seems more content to wait and have her hold back and think about it. Kyube certainly wasn't complaining that Madoka chose to go along, but he comes across to me more like a salesman, doing the only thing he is capable of doing. Quote:
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A salesman told me repeatedly that he wants to sell me a TV, but most of the time, told me to think it over carefully. I don't see that as manipulation, because he is telling me straight up what he would like to do: engage in a mutually beneficial transaction. It is up to me. And if I keep putting myself in positions where my current TV could break, that is my fault. And if I buy a TV without making sure all the connectors are good, and it works, and it's in good condition, etc. then it is solely my fault for not doing what I should. The salesman may be taking advantage of the fact that my TV is broken to remind me that he can sell me a TV, but he isn't manipulating me at all. He's just taking advantage of the situation. Quote:
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You are being honest with me... are you trying to manipulate me, then? Quote:
If I sell anti-bear guns and let you know about it a few times, being quite forward with the fact that I want to make money, and you say no but keep tromping through bear territory and keep getting attacked by bears, and after running away I remind you that I can sell you an anti-bear gun... am I being manipulative? Or just a pushy salesman? I didn't make you tromp through bear territory; you did that on your own. |
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2011-02-13, 02:45 | Link #435 |
Hardcore meets Casual
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Age: 35
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idk but the way kyuubey is eating grief seeds and essentially lying about what happens to your soul, makes me believe he has to be a the villain. And then theres that creepy smile he wears all the time.
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2011-02-13, 03:02 | Link #436 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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i find it strange why some people will vehemently defend the position the QB is not manipulative, because for me he definitely is by his actions.
a couple of points. simplified, let's try not to put in any unneeded baggage like homura as "also" manipulative in this discussion. homura being manipulative or not is separate and irrelevant to the topic of QB being manipulative. 1) manipulative does not equate evil > maybe this is why some people are so against this because QB will feel more " evil " if that's the case. but then again Batman can be manipulative, L from deathnote is a superb manipulator. And QB is too. from his own mouth no less remember he admitted not saying that piece of information, about being zombified (oops its their such a word ^^) because he knows what effect it will have on their choice. again from the definitions > to negotiate, control, or influence (something or someone) cleverly, skilfully, or deviously 2) he may not have CREATED the situations ( in bold because some will say he might have done so, not enough info at the moment) but he definitely made sure the girls are there to witness it so he can do his sales pitch again. And i agree that madoka would already be an MG if homura wasn't there. 3) some say he was always TRUTHFUL, meaning never lied. - 3.1) yes i agree he never said a lie outright. but then he HARDLY SAID ANYTHING at all. you see you can be manipulative without saying any outright lie. in fact the best manipulators are like that. ( also there is such a thing as lying by omission tackled on 3.3) 3.2) you can argue he was "concerned" like telling the girls like "think deeply about you choices" and " make sure of your choices" something to that effect, and yet asks the girls during abnormally stressful times. it's akin to asking your young girlfriend to marry you just when she heard her parents died in an accident. or maybe even just after hearing a shocking news on TV. you can't expect them to think properly and objectively then. 3.3) I maintain that Mami gave more insights to the MG business than QB ever volunteered. for me even Homura gave more insights than QB. so it goes down to being truthful not just in the basic sense "no outright lies" sense but truthful in spirit. We all know QB withholds information, and these are not any trifling information but life threatening, choice changing, contract breaking ones. some will argue s/he/it needs to do that to get more MG and it's for the good etc etc, again this is irrelevant to the topic of him being manipulative. see 1) above. |
2011-02-13, 05:42 | Link #437 |
I kill you
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: In your brain
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^ Yep, manipulation is not about lying. It's about showing the half-truth or part-truth. For instance, if mahou shoujo knew what happens to their soul when they make contract (aka turning into the zombie), the amount of recruit will be significantly less.
At first, only thing QB basically said was 'make contract with meh!! you can also have one wish granted as a delicious bonus!!'. If Mami didn't die or Homura wasn't there, Madoka's soul is already solid. Remember QB's words whenever he was alone with madoka? Remember how he is tricking Madoka into puella magi by keep bringing her into the situation? No word other than manipulative (and desperate) multi-level business salary-man can describe it.
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2011-02-13, 05:51 | Link #438 |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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ehhhh....just throwing in another idea at the discussion pool.
Often in all kinds of story mediums we see the antagonists deliver a mind blow by actually telling them honestly about something, regardless whether the victim actually wanted to know that information or not. I consider this act manipulative. The all-time classic example: "I am your father" "NOOOO~~~~!!!" In that example, Vader was manipulating Luke's will to succumb to the dark side. Though luckily he didn't fall for it because he knew better. Imho, manipulation is merely means to an end. It's not good nor evil. There were cases where the main protagonist was deliberately deceived or manipulated by the rest of the cast, usually to protect that protagonist. As a tool, manipulation comes with disadvantages, such as: a chance to fail or even backfire if the victim was actually mentally or intellectually superior than the perpetrator, or if they were being suspicious of the manipulator. Even if the manipulation failed, the fact remains that the manipulator attempted it. I also think cleverly taking advantage of a situation to your or someone else liking or to put the victim in a difficult position is a form of manipulation. Even if the victim actually wanted to know that information, the manipulator might actually lure him to a disadvantageous situation Suppose, QB wasn't manipulative, I doubt he would be able to do his job properly. His job relies heavily on unsuspecting or cornered little girls. Without being manipulative, it is hard to lure them into this line of work. Perhaps QB is more of an opportunist, but QB also often created those opportunities by himself, cleverly manipulating situations to his liking.
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2011-02-13, 05:58 | Link #439 | |
Uncaring
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Would it be lulz worthy if i told you that a *ahem* particular poster actually went around harping on people to state it was their opinion |
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2011-02-13, 06:05 | Link #440 |
Uncaring
Join Date: Sep 2010
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On the if "there were no MS, witches would kill everyone!" lulz worthy logic, here is what has been shown and described
i) Targetted by witches are those weak humans. What does this mean? Witches do not target strong humans. ii) No normal human has entered the witch dimension other than MS capable girls. iii) All the normal humans are shown to commit suicide iv) Normal humans affected move towards the place the witch will be at walking speed v) Familiars only become witches if they "eat" enough humans vi) Witch dimensions are preceded by their grief seeds What do we do if we are targetted by witches without any MS around? i) Send out the word so everyone knows ii) Set up neighbourhood watches iii) Forcibly restraint those who seem to in a trance iv) Let the witches and familiars starve . What happens when they starve? Maybe we'll find out v) Hunt grief seeds vi) Analyze and find a way to destroy grief seeds vii) As the grief seed is not used by any MS (since they are not around), they will not be able to return to witch state if destruction of the witch but not grief seed is possible viii) On chance destruction is not possible, gather each and bury them in the moon/mars/etc or send on a course outside the solar system. Last edited by FlavorOfLife; 2011-02-13 at 06:19. |
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madness, madoka magica |
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