2013-11-02, 20:23 | Link #1761 | ||||
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Even ignoring Prelims, ISML already has the same thing - If a girl does horribly in the first period or two (i.e. at the start of the regular season), that will negatively impact her chances of making the Circlet/Tiara post-season. It's called "digging yourself into a hole" when it comes to season-long won-loss record. ISML already has it without some ridiculous prelim-based season-encompassing handicap. Quote:
It's like instead of just having home field advantage, one baseball team starts with a 3-0 score advantage going into the game. Pro baseball fans would not stand for this complete nonsense. Quote:
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2013-11-02, 20:48 | Link #1762 | |
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Necklaces will never be about the strongest character, because that's what post-season is for. There won't be implementation of a system that's totally redundant to another, more fundamental system already.
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2013-11-02, 20:56 | Link #1763 | ||
ISML Technical Staff
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Regular season matches are ALL that matters and should be the MOST meaningful. In contrast, necklace matches are 100% pointless and does not contribute to any stat. EDIT: Oh, I found somethign else. Quote:
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2013-11-02, 21:31 | Link #1764 | |||||||
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Shouldn't awards go to the most deserving, and hence strongest, competitors? And yes, they are awards. Please don't try denying that. They're obviously awards given how fans of Necklace winners react to them winning it. "May the best team win." "May the best competitor win." Isn't this the spirit of competitiveness that we should want in all competitions? But even if you don't care at all about character strength, there is still the predictability argument. SDO makes Necklace matches more predictable, which is obviously bad if you want ISML to be as fun and enjoyable as it can be. People tend to prefer unpredictable matches over predictable ones. SDO slants the Necklace match towards a predictable result by overly favoring the girls with the two or three highest SDO scores going into the match. Shouldn't the ISML Staff want the Necklace matches to be fun and entertaining, and hence not overly predictable? If so, then the way SDO is being used now runs contrary to that. Quote:
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So there would still be good reasons to call it an Aquamarine Necklace.
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2013-11-02, 21:54 | Link #1765 | ||
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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2013-11-02, 22:18 | Link #1767 | ||
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All I said is that it's silly to make arguments on the basis of "theoretically perfect" when applying said arguments to things that can't be perfect. Quote:
In a 2-division system like what ISML has right now, you're only going to get 3/4 girls per division in each Necklace match. The likelihood of one of those girls having more than one loss against her during the period is slim (and if one or more of those girls has that, she probably has no chance of Necklace victory anyway). Which means it's obviously important for voters to keep showing up almost every match simply to get their girl into the Necklace match. The margin for error is incredibly low. Even under what I'm suggesting, the girl who wins the Necklace will almost certainly have either a perfect period record, or a record of 6-1. You don't need SDO to factor into Necklace Match results calculations in order to ensure this. Look, I get it - The ISML Staff is afraid that if you let the Necklace winner be whoever gets the most votes in the Necklace match that people will stop showing up for Regular Season matches. What I'm saying is no, that's not going to happen to a truly significant extent, because the margin for error is so low. So if you go with what some other people and myself are suggesting... 1. The Necklace matches become less predictable, which means they become more fun and interesting. 2. Character strength matters more than handicaps, which reflects the spirit of competition. 3. It would not have a significant impact on how many voters show up for Regular Season matches. On the whole, it would be a very positive change. I provided answers to your previous questions, and if you don't think those answers are good enough, then I'd like to know why.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-11-02 at 22:39. Reason: Adding in reply to KholdStare |
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2013-11-02, 22:51 | Link #1768 | |
Mishaguji-sama
Join Date: Oct 2010
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2013-11-02, 23:19 | Link #1769 | |
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I mean, there's different formulas that could be used for calculating SDO, or something like it. It is possible to have a SDO that's not directly impacted by prelim results.
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2013-11-03, 07:11 | Link #1770 | ||||||||||||||
NOM.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Singapore
Age: 31
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And we already said that SDO is OK to use for determining those who are even eligible for necklaces to begin with so unless they make any effort throughout the regular season their favourite girl won't even qualify in the first place. Necklace group round is first and foremost determined by wins, followed by head-to-head, followed by SDO. So maybe they didn't vote in regular season because they didn't need to? What for vote when your character's gonna win anyway. Only vote when it really matters. Such as in necklace showdowns or in knockout stages or against strong opponents. Why should such voters be punished? Quote:
Actually, forget it. Even if there are, as time passes more knowledge on how to manipulate SDO will be found, and seeing that there were no such examples in 2013 we won't have any more examples. SDO only worked the first time. Over time, SDO has proven itself to be a one-trick pony that is very easily worked around against. And over time, SDO has proven itself to be even worse than anything else used before it. Quote:
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Not doing well in an earlier part implies the higher likelihood of the character not being able to do well in the main season anyway, so there's no need to add an artificial height to the hill they have to overcome. You guys first talk about unpredictability, and now you want to avoid upsets? Which is the whole point of unpredictability in the first place? And what's wrong with new season boosts? That's equivalent to punishing new voters, is it not? Quote:
Real-life competition seeding only affects the difficulty of the opponents (or the number of matches they have to face), not some handicap within the match itself, which is what SDO is doing. Also, you didn't take into account those who did well initially, tapered off later on, and never get handicapped the same way as those who had slow starts but did much better later on? No? I thought not. Quote:
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Actually, the perceptive of the general voting public is now that "strongest = highest SDO" so what do you have to say about this? Quote:
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On the contrary, the problem is that you're putting too much meaning into the regular season matches, to the extent of them affecting something they should never affect at all. Quote:
So what those voters did is actually a perfectly legitimate move (unlike, say, match-fixing) which is done in real life leagues, and they shouldn't be punished for it. Assumption of perfect seeding has always been, is and will always be a poor assumption.
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Last edited by iamadooddood; 2013-11-03 at 07:26. |
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2013-11-03, 10:33 | Link #1771 | |
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Back in 2013 Topaz 1, Mikoto Misaka pulled an incredible 8758-8079 victory over Kanade. Mikoto then went on to be 7-0 for the rest of Topaz, decisively winning all of her matches by comfortable margins. Even with that perfect Topaz record, she went into the 2013 Topaz Necklace match with an absolutely massive 112.380 to 64.853 SDO disadvantage against Mashiro. Mikoto obviously had no chance, and in spite of how she deserved to have a chance based on her Topaz performance. So Mikoto likely bled voters to Mashiro, as people do like voting for a winner. Mashiro's SDO edge on everybody else was so massive that her victory was a foregone conclusion. Mikoto would not come close to those Topaz 1 heights in the post-season (losing to Kanade by almost 2000 votes mere weeks after defeating her by over 700 votes in regular season). I think it may well have been because new voters brought in by Railgun S were turned off by how Mikoto was basically screwed by the SDO system pretty much the entire year, but with Topaz being the straw that broke the camel's back. I think that's probably part of it, at least. So even if the way SDO is being used now gets people a little more invested in regular season matches, is it worth the way it can turn off new voters? To put it more simply, does it result in a net gain/maintaining of total voters, or a net loss in total voters? I suspect it's a net loss. I suspect that ISML's voter growth potential is being limited by how the current rules can be unwelcoming to new voters who happen to get interested in or around the Summer months. It makes sense to want people to keep showing up for the regular season matches, because the more votes ISML gets on a reliable basis the better it is for ISML. But by the same token, it's good to have rules that are welcoming to new voters all 12 months of the year, and not just the time during which prelims are being held. Gaining and keeping new voters is very good for ISML, of course. I think it's best to seek a balance that is welcoming to new voters, while also providing some encouragement to existing voters to keep showing up for regular season matches. The current situation is threatening that balance. Whereas what you and I are suggesting would improve that balance.
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2013-11-03, 12:13 | Link #1772 | ||
Defying gravity
Join Date: Jul 2010
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2013-11-03, 13:15 | Link #1773 | ||
NOM.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Singapore
Age: 31
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Even if it wasn't the admins' intentions, fact is, fans see necklace winners as strong. And because of SDO, the perceptions of fans is that "high SDO = strong". So if a really strong girl crushes all her opponents throughout the entire season, her SDO would be really low. And she'll never be able to win a necklace. Quote:
postseason. For postseason, it's better to get into a higher seed because, well, the higher the seed, the weaker your opponent is likely to be. That much is obvious. But you don't know how much strength they're hiding, hence upsets which make the tournament unpredictable and therefore interesting can and do occur. And if a girl can hide her strength like that, who's to say her opponent can't either? All these uncertainties is what truly makes a tournament interesting, not some ridiculously predictable SDO. It's been said the hallmark of a champion is that they can win even without doing their best. And based on what I've seen regarding the SDO mechanism so far, they might as well not. You may not notice it, but there's another vital reason why some people don't like voting in the regular season. Regularly voting in the regular season actually hurts the girl's SDO as well. Reason being, if a girl crushes her opponents because her fanbase keeps voting for her, making her win all her matches convincingly, her SDO actually drops. At least, that's what I got from the admins' posts in the link to the SDO debate thread. So best result would have been to win all matches by narrow margins, which is ridiculous no matter how I see it, because another entertaining thing is the existence of crushing victories. In short, SDO was implemented to encourage people to vote consistently in the regular season (and such rules alienate voters who join mid-season), but SDO actually also deters people from voting. Btw, I really have no idea what you mean by the bolded part. There are multiple ways fans can define "moe", and the bolded part is but a common definition. If ISML truly was for fans, it would acknowledge that.
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2013-11-03, 14:38 | Link #1774 | |||
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However, what is unfair is punishing new voters because of what time of year they happen to become interested in ISML. That is what is unfair. Quote:
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2013-11-03, 14:43 | Link #1775 | ||
ISML Technical Staff
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This is false. SDO was created as a tiebreaker to go before VF. Then the necklace match was created, and SDO was applied to encourage people to not ignore the regular season matches.
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2013-11-03, 14:49 | Link #1776 | |
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I think this is a perfectly good and reasonable position that would improve ISML by making the Necklace matches more fun and exciting, by properly rewarding character strength, and by being more friendly and welcoming to new voters. I have yet to read any good counterargument to any point I have raised here, so it's a real mystery to me why you seem to be so against even considering the idea.
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2013-11-03, 14:50 | Link #1777 |
ISML Technical Staff
Graphic Designer
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As I said before, SDO being used as eligibility is not enough. See my PM.
Another thing I have to tell you is that when we created the rules, we have considered many things, including talking to death the possibility of using SDO as eligibility only. The staff unanimously agrees that this watered down definition of a period necklace is not what we're aiming for when we created the necklace.
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2013-11-03, 14:59 | Link #1778 | |
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You're attaching an almost mythical importance to mere award names and definitions. Frankly, it's silly. What's most important for ISML: 1) Having impressively firm definitions, or ISML voters having fun? 2) Having impressively firm definitions, or rewarding character strength? 3) Having impressively firm definitions, or having unpredictable matches? 4) Having impressively firm definitions, or attracting/keeping new voters?
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2013-11-03, 20:22 | Link #1780 | |
Yuri µ'serator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: FL, USA
Age: 36
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With the 2 divisions, going back to just purely SDO would be even worse than it was before .
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isml, saimoe |
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