Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[aeriolewinters]

Um, Lacus was just worried about Kira. How is she forcing her way?

"Come Back to me" --Lacus Clyne, ep48 Gundam SEED. And funny, I find myself liking this Lacus over the one we have currently.

The fact that Kira's relationship with Lacus isn't any further than it is in Destiny should be enough to show that Flay still has an effect on Kira.

There could be some credence to this, except that they don't allude to this AT ALL.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

"Come Back to me" --Lacus Clyne, ep48 Gundam SEED.

Are you seriously finding fault with that statement?

There could be some credence to this, except that they don't allude to this AT ALL.

That's because they allude to it in SEED. Remember Flay's face appearing in Kira's mind when Lacus was looking over him?

And really, with all the overuse of flashback in SEED/Destiny, I'm surprised you would even want more. I actually like the fact that the portrayal of Flay's lingering influence on Kira in Destiny is subtle.

[aeriolewinters]

Are you seriously finding fault with that statement?

No, not just the statement, the whole giving Kira a ring, like proposing to him.

That's because they allude to it in SEED. Remember Flay's face appearing in Kira's mind when Lacus was looking over him?

And really, with all the overuse of flashback in SEED/Destiny, I'm surprised you would even want more. I actually like the fact that the portrayal of Flay's lingering influence on Kira in Destiny is subtle.

Hell, I don't want more reused flashbacks, i'll be selfish and say: I WANT A LALAHFIED FLLAY appearing in at least one episode.

Also, I'd like to say that if you're really thinking that, then all the fault is now centered to Lacus, Is it not hard for her to show signs of anguish, or being left out in favor of a ghost?

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

No, not just the statement, the whole giving Kira a ring, like proposing to him.

Eh, why not? You saw how Kira nearly let himself be killed because of Flay. Lacus was just telling him that there's someone waiting for him.

Also, I'd like to say that if you're really thinking that, then all the fault is now centered to Lacus, Is it not hard for her to show signs of anguish, or being left out in favor of a ghost?

For one thing, Lacus does not have low self esteem. She wouldn't feel insecure just because a dead girl may still have an influence on Kira. And secondly, I think she knows that Kira loves her, so that's more reason why she wouldn't be worried.

[Washu-Chan]

The way I see it, GSD's scenario should have been how the three mains (Kira, Athrun, and Shinn) were still haunted by those who knew them very well (Kira had Fllay, Athrun had Patrick, and Shinn had his family [specifically, Mayu]).

We already knew that Shinn was still haunted by his family's deaths, and Athrun's reaction during the Junius 7 incident, when one of pro-Patrick Zala soldiers mentioned his father.

There should have been an angle in which Kira was still haunted by Fllay's death, but because they (Sunrise) didn't want to invoke the wrath of the Kira/Lacus shippers, they make it appear that Kira already gotten over her death, even if it's just two years.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

The way I see it, GSD's scenario should have been how the three mains (Kira, Athrun, and Shinn) were still haunted by those who knew them very well (Kira had Fllay, Athrun had Patrick, and Shinn had his family [specifically, Mayu]).

We already knew that Shinn was still haunted by his family's deaths, and Athrun's reaction during the Junius 7 incident, when one of pro-Patrick Zala soldiers mentioned his father.

There should have been an angle in which Kira was still haunted by Fllay's death, but because they (Sunrise) didn't want to invoke the wrath of the Kira/Lacus shippers, they make it appear that Kira already gotten over her death, even if it's just two years.

No, they simply didn't plan on making Kira the focal point of Destiny. It's supposed to be about Shinn and, to a lesser extent, Athrun/Cagalli.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by monster

No, they simply didn't plan on making Kira the focal point of Destiny. It's supposed to be about Shinn and, to a lesser extent, Athrun/Cagalli.

I'm not saying that Kira should be the main character. Kira dealing with Fllay's death should have been his subplot. Of course, Shinn and Athrun would still be the central characters.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

I'm not saying that Kira should be the main character.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you said that. That was poor wording on my part.

Kira dealing with Fllay's death should have been his subplot. Of course, Shinn and Athrun would still be the central characters.

What I meant to say is that, since the focus is on Shinn and Athrun, they simply never planned on having any subplot specifically for Kira.

At least, that's how I see it.

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

There should have been an angle in which Kira was still haunted by Fllay's death, but because they (Sunrise) didn't want to invoke the wrath of the Kira/Lacus shippers, they make it appear that Kira already gotten over her death, even if it's just two years.

We all know why Kira was not hung up on the death of Fllay:

Majority of Gundam shows have it, apparitions of the dead lover, in this case 'ex-lover' comes back and tells the good old MC its okay. The magic of Gundam.

Don't forget that Kira and Lacus were already building a relationship (mostly off screen) but it is obvious, from episode 32 onwards after they reunite and of course hopefully repairing the damage done from Fllay's manipulative actions.

To a lesser extent in the OVA it is shown that Kira is still going through the heartbreak of the loses he had during the war, but the up side was that he had Lacus beside him to help with through and that was explicitly implied. Whatever else happened between that time well its up to the imagination and the fact that the time for Kira to have any development was more or less over but thanks to sloppy writing of GSD he suddenly found his way into the lime light and by that Lacus and Kira's relationship as well. (or lack of development)

To be completely honest in terms of screen time I would say that both couples have almost the identical amount perhaps the type of scenario explored was different which leads to the difference in the amount of development.

Kira could never have become the MS pilot he wound up being without Fllay's chapter...The emotionless automaton we see in GSD is Kira after passing through the unbridled passion of Fllay Allstar...


And so what she was manipulative...How many guys are in love with their manipulative GF's? Now your GF might fake some tears to get a new waffle iron as opposed to sexing for MS puppetry, but the logic is the same, if you like the chick you'll allow it, and I see no reason why Kira wouldn't have still been into Fllay in the end had she survived, simply because he's Kira...That one moment of him seeing she was alive (before she got Rau'd) is more visible emotion than Lacus has ever seen barring reused animation cells...

Hence why I said Fllay was used as character development for Kira and like all Gundam's the first love interest albeit failed in this case has to die for the final character growth to take place.

Agreed if you like your GF you would accept a little manipulation but it sort of supports what I was saying about how their relationship was similar to that of a boy girl relationship. The stuff of teenage romance, this is compared to the more matured relationship of Kira and Lacus where they had a sense of mutual understanding, (level: ASIAN) which is more often scene in couples married for a very long time. Being Asian I guess the ideal relationship appeals to me more.

This is why Kira/Lacus feels hollow, because they don't give a damn about how to build the relationship first. They just stuck the two most popular characters together, and expected to rake in as much money.

To be fair from the get go as seen from the very first OP, they were planning Kira and Lacus to be together from the very start. Therefore it would not be a case of sticking together popular characters.

While executed perhaps not as well as it could have been, I find that Kira's romance was always second fiddle to the bigger picture of the relation being different the Naturals and Coordinator and the relevant character development of the various characters. However it does not stop the couple from being any less endearing when we are given even small snippets of their relationship.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

No, not just the statement, the whole giving Kira a ring, like proposing to him.

And what's the problem ? Yes, she clearly said that she loved him and that she would be here for him. I don't see why Lacus should just sit and watch when she loves him too.

In the end Kira and Lacus are fully in love. Some of you don't like the pairing but some of us like the pairing. However the fact, they are in love with each other, is official. And as said before, their love is shown all along GSD.

Also, I want to remind everyone that Kira is not in love with Flay nor Lacus in Gundam Seed. It's official.

A more interesting discussion would be about Caggali and her feeling for Kira which, I think, is stronger than for Athrun.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

Don't forget that Kira and Lacus were already building a relationship (mostly off screen) but it is obvious, from episode 40 onwards after they reunite and of course hopefully repairing the damage done from Fllay's manipulative actions.
.

Actually it started in episode 32 or something like that. When Kira was still at Lacus's place. You even had, in one of these episodes, a metaphor with two blue birds

[BladeEntity]

The relationship started growing when he was getting better, and continued to build once they reunited while they were in space. Was what I meant thanks for correcting me.

[aeriolewinters]

Also, I want to remind everyone that Kira is not in love with Flay nor Lacus in Gundam Seed. It's official.

This is the same director who said that the only newtypes in SEED are Rau and Mwu, 3 years later in Destiny, guess what? Kira is one now, and Arguably, Lacus is one too.

Again, if you so insist this, then you're just a broken record by now who has no ammunition except for 'it's official' because Fukuda is a two-time liar who just is scared of the fans' backlash to say that it is what it is.

Fukuda's word-of-god is so inconsistent that it's funny you bring it up.

This is the same guy who's said that Kira and Lacus are the intended antagonists for the show despite them hogging the focus of the story for the second half of Destiny.

If what fukuda says was true, then It's another point for SEED and Destiny being Twilight! With Mobile Suits.

You see, Kusa-san this is what you are: you're content with what the Director says, even if it's badly executed, and will stick to it because 'you've won'. You think I hate Lacus because Fllay didn't get Kira in the end: Here's the point, Lacus should've been built better in order to successfully be Fllay's successor. Nothing changes the fact that they robbed Kira and Lacus proper development, and it's sad that you defend such a lackluster pairing, when it had the capacity to exceed the former, if only Lacus' characterization wasn't Bellaish. Then when you get pressed for answers you fallback to such a nuisance excuse because:

The point of that new scene in Invoke 2012(the Remaster's OP) is to illustrate that Kira does have feelings for Fllay, and indeed does love her, denying the obvious because the director said so, even though first-hand experience of the series states otherwise is proof that you're only grasping at straws my friend. And don't you even go to the 'Kira loved neither' excuse again, It's a stupid excuse for a cop-out that not only spits on Fllay, It spits on SEED itself. It spits on Lacus, It spits on Kira, and it spits to what all three of them have gone through. It's also another reason why Lacus is highly regarded as... Mary sue of mary sues.


The retardedness of your logic boggles me, because if Kira didn't love either, then he's either autistic for trying to save Fllay, not once, but twice or even listening to Lacus' speech about 'coming back to her'.

[BladeEntity]

Well to be perfectly fair the term 'in love' is so overused. And from where I am standing for Kira to be COMPLETELY in love with either Fllay or Lacus in SEED seems extremely unlikely to me. However I have no doubt that Kira had feelings for Fllay this fact is also indisputable, whether it would have blossomed into the 'ideal' relationship such as Kira and Lacus in GSD is impossible to know because of her death for the sack of keeping gundam tradition and for the sack of the final character growth for Kira. Kira wanting to save her for me was perfectly natural and in his character that whether he does it out of love or because he simply wants to patch up the way they had kind of 'ended' whatever remnant of a relationship they had before he died is seriously up to you. I feel that it is a combination of both, but from his actions toward her just before Kira's death show that PERHAPS he was not that 'in love' with her.

[aeriolewinters]

Kira wanting to save her for me was perfectly natural and in his character that whether he does it out of love or because he simply wants to patch up the way they had kind of 'ended' whatever remnant of a relationship they had before he died is seriously up to you. I feel that it is a combination of both, but from his actions toward her just before Kira's death show that PERHAPS he was not that 'in love' with her.

Compare ep.39 and that episode where Fllay is held on an escape pod. Again. tell me, which Kira had more emotion? the one who got prodded by Athrun to go up in space, or the one who recklessly tried to get the escape pod? Seriously, it isn't even a question.

[Kusa-San]

No I will say it again and again, until there is an official chart which siad the contrary : Kira love none of them in GS. And you can esasly explain that because the war broke him : Therefore he was unable to love. The fact that he want to save Flay so badly is easly explainable :

- Toll died before that and he thought it was his fault
- He made a promise to her : To protect her

There is no love in that, just a young boy who who was destroyed by the war mentally.

So, it's explainable and official.

[BladeEntity]

Kira in SEED especially then was extremely fixated on saving people it was the basis of his character development therefore the way I see it that time he had not yet matured from the teenager that was SEED hence the great amount of emotion, we must also look at the context of EP39, he was st told about his existence, therefore saving her may have been his way of redeeming himself from his own existence.

Kira in GSD shows less emotion, but it showed how much he has grown as a pilot learning that when he is agitated, he more likely to make mistakes looking back at EP39 where he took a real beating. However he did show a sense of urgency when flying into space to save her. Which shows how much she means to him by GSD not to mention the loving embrace....

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

The relationship started growing when he was getting better, and continued to build once they reunited while they were in space. Was what I meant thanks for correcting me.

Yes but just to be clear : For me he really fells in love with Lacus after Seed during these two year before GSD.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

K
Kira in GSD shows less emotion, but it showed how much he has grown as a pilot learning that when he is agitated, he more likely to make mistakes looking back at EP39 where he took a real beating. However he did show a sense of urgency when flying into space to save her. Which shows how much she means to him by GSD not to mention the loving embrace....

Ah but in GSD they are completly in love. It's shown all along such as in ep 13-14, 18, 26, 39, 42 etc...

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Yes but just to be clear : For me he really fells in love with Lacus after Seed during these two year before GSD.

Agreed, his reply to the ring was too platonic for Kira to be completely in love with Lacus in SEED but there were beginnings of a mature relationship during the later episodes.