2010-02-20, 01:53 | Link #1641 |
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The conference is a clear influence on events, as it is wildly different every game. I would submit that there are other factors that may apply:
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2010-02-20, 02:27 | Link #1642 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I'm going to need to ask what the logic error is because I've been seeing Jan_poo and Renall go back and forth and I'm not sure how any of what's going on solves anything. I think I need to know what the logic error is to make sense of it and what Beatrice's proposed solution was. I've been trying to find it by looking back in this thread, but it's proving to be difficult as I'm only find vague references to what it is.
Besides that: If we could go to a hypothetical for a moment. Say the nonexistence or starting death of any character as a blue truth or an alternate explanation was sealed. How would you explain the closed rooms and the rescue mystery without the nonexistence or starting death of any of the characters? Can you come up with a theory that doesn't use denial of any of the characters as a scapegoat method to explain the mysteries in episode 6? Edit: I'm getting quite tired of this idea that the only way to solve the mystery is to make it so there less suspects so less culprits exist. Frankly I like both Kanon and Erika as characters and I don't want to accept an explanation that argues that they don't exist or that their dead at the start of all or certain games to solve it. it irritates me. For one thing if you argue Erika drowned you have to leave out an important TIP for her disappearance when she dies. The possible explosion. If you argue Shkanon you have to leave out the possibility that a living person named Kanon killed people in certain episodes and I don't want to accept that either.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 02:49. |
2010-02-20, 03:07 | Link #1643 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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After the first twilight was discovered, Erika inspected the "victims" and killed all of them except for Battler. She then placed a seal on the door of the guest room Battler was in, and rejoined the survivors. Everyone returned to the guesthouse and divided into the cousins' room and neighboring room to wait out the storm. Erika snuck out and conducted a check of the everyone's locations. The first twilight victims were all in their original rooms. Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the neighboring room, and "everyone else (excluding Kinzo)" was in the cousins' room. After the check, Erika sealed both rooms. At this point, supposedly everyone's location is known. Back at the mansion, Erika verified that the guest room seal was intact. She went inside and immediately repaired and set the chain lock with duct tape. She searched everywhere except for the closet and didn't find Battler anywhere. She was distracted for several minutes in the bathroom by a strange trap that hadn't been there previously, but when she emerged, the chain lock was still locked. Meta Battler announced that Battler was not anywhere in the room. The only way this is possible is if someone came from outside and switched places with Battler to let him out. However, all other living people were supposedly sealed in the guesthouse. Of those seals, all of them except for the neighboring room window were intact at the time Erika emerged from the bathroom. Dlanor forbade solutions making use of that window. So, who rescued Battler from the room? According to Beato's solution, Kanon vanished from the cousins' room, which was sealed, and rescued Battler while Erika was in the bathroom. Then, he hid in the closet and immediately evaporated again. He definitely entered the guest room, and he definitely didn't leave, but he doesn't exist in the room anymore. Quote:
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2010-02-20, 03:22 | Link #1644 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Ugh.. with a stupid paradox like this it would be much easier to argue that episode 6 is the thing that doesn't exist.
But with the rooms sealed this sounds more like a challenge at deceiving Erika into thinking that both rooms were sealed rather than how Kanon can be in a sealed room and still rescue Battler. It's ridiculous to think you can deceive someone with a photographic memory into thinking that though. To accomplish this we'd have to turn Kanon into some kind of magician or a ninja at a level of trickery that could surpass even Houdini. This is kind of a childish metaphor, but aren't the last reds kind of like a group of boys reacting to a girl who wants to enter their tree house? The girl asks" if she can be invited in" and the group inside says "there are already enough people your not allowed to play with us".
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 04:36. |
2010-02-20, 03:31 | Link #1645 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Note that the location check and sealing was all done with time stopped, so there's no room for something like "Ninja Kanon." Quote:
Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-02-20 at 03:50. |
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2010-02-20, 03:52 | Link #1647 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
This might be helpful: Erika said that when she said "everyone else", the definition of that is "all names that I didn't explicitly mention previously." By her example, if Kanon's real name were "George" instead of "Yoshiya", then he could be in the neighboring room instead of the cousins' room, since "George" was explicitly listed in that room. |
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2010-02-20, 03:58 | Link #1648 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
either that or Kanon = Kinzo
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2010-02-20, 04:04 | Link #1649 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
What I suggested was that Kanon was adopted by Kinzo from the orphanage and named after him. There have been several hints that Kanon was close to Kinzo, and in Episode 4 it was said that everyone recognized the existence of Kinzo even though we know that the old man Kinzo does not exist. If Kanon's real name is "Kinzo", then since "Kinzo" was excluded from "everyone else", his location wasn't specified during the location check, so he could be anywhere on the island. Also, there was so much mystery built up around Kanon's name that I'd be completely shocked if it actually was something boring and unimportant like "Yoshiya." |
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2010-02-20, 04:14 | Link #1650 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Okay with the hints available I think that makes the most sense.
It could be Kanon's real name is George or Nanjo or even Kumasawa for anyone who want to believe he's a reverse trap. For Kanon = Kinzo to work I wouldn't see it as a title that's a little far-fetched, so let's look at it a little differently. Say that Kanon is really the son of Kinzo and his mistress Beatrice and he was put in the Fukuin orphanage because they wanted to hide that. There is a lot of foreshadowing for that in episode 2 and there isn't anything saying Kinzo didn't have a child like that. Kanon's name would be Kinzo not because it's a title, but because he was named after his father. In other words in episode 4 they recognized the existence of "the bastard son named Kinzo". In fact the whole thing about welcoming the guest in episode 2 could be about welcoming Kanon only it wasn't said that way. Edit: This could also explain why he rejects Jessica because Kanon (possibly) knows that their blood related. If this is true Kanon couldn't love jessica in the first place because he's related to her, but maybe Shannon can love George because she's not related to the Ushiromiya family. Or we could use the foreshadowing for Maria's name as an example. it doesn't help solve the check, but lets run with it. Kanon's real name could be Maria or if he's male it could be Marian and that could be why Kinzo didn't like that Rosa named her Daughter Maria because he wanted to introduce his bastard child to the family later. Unfortunately he died before that ever happened.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 04:45. |
2010-02-20, 04:23 | Link #1651 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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The names of people in the neighboring room don't work because of the blue truth seal on the window, but if Kanon's a girl, then all of the first twilight victims are fair game (including Maria, like you said). You'd have to explain why she was in the same room as a corpse at the time of the location check, but that's not particularly difficult.
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2010-02-20, 06:26 | Link #1652 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Erika is a character in a story, and Battler's game is a third rate mystery novel. Quote:
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I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective. - Lamba start of the game Furudo Erika is the detective in this game, not me!! - Battler end of the game. Clearly in Ep5 Erika has been the detective from the start to the end. If you think that Erika seeing Dlanor goes against the red you mentioned, i.e. if you think that the red you mentioned isn't limited to facts related to the gameboard (which is what I think), how can you make sense of it? Quote:
Also redeeming? Where was it said? And isn't it contradictory that "Battler actually wanted for Erika to have that advantageous position again" only to break it later? Why do you think Dlanor said that Battler has been arrogant? If he really exploited Erika's weakness, I wouldn't say so... Quote:
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I imagined you would say so. Let say this isn't an inconsistency on the author's part (which I wouldn't be on it) then maybe it is that you need at least to believe you know something. If it isn't so, you'll have an even bigger inconsistency: why no one ever uses red with trial and errors to find the truth? I require that you answer this question. Quote:
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And you completely misunderstood that part. It was Lambda that prevented Cornelia from using that red. Quote:
let me show you these reds, you probably haven't noticed: Excluding one place, no one’s body is inside the bedroom. No one’s body is inside the bathroom. If you read it literally, if you don't accept the obvious "excluding the searcher's body itself", this means that there is no body in those place. Is Erika inside the closet with Battler? Quote:
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But Dlanor said that Erika herself fixed the chainlock and you agreed that Erika can't be Battler or Kanon. Quote:
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But let me say it doesn't work with the reds. You see when the time was stopped (and it never resumed not even after Beatrice came into play), The chain lock is still locked Ushiromiya Battler does not exist inside the guest room. …That’s including the closet, with no exceptions whatsoever. You need to present a situation where in the end you have Battler outside two people that entred inside (Erika and Kanon) The chainlock fixed and locked Your reconstruction is therefore denied. Quote:
The Gameboard can be changed at will, you can set a piece wherever you want, but you can change its position at any given time. That however comes with a limitation. You can't make move that go against a red truth, doing that will create a logic error. I am not making up anything here, these are all things that can be seen in EP6. At the time of Battler and Erika's duel, Kanon was not outside, his piece was inside the neighboring room. However Battler never stated anything in red about his position. That made it possible for Beatrice to change something in the gameboard, she used her own piece and made it so it escaped from the window and went rescuing Battler. This interpretation is consistent with all that has been shown in the metaworld scenes of EP6, your interpretation is a total mess. Your interpretation puts Erika in even a higher position than Battler himself for what concerns the gameboard knowledge. At least I explain how Erika can know things Battler doesn't because it's all related to things she has done herself. But you claim she can say she has done something she never did and she can use red about them even though she's supposed to be completely blind on what is truly happening in the gameboard. Quote:
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2010-02-20, 07:52 | Link #1653 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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This is a true story!! If you read this red literally Umineko can't be a fictional story. Obviously it's referring to something else in some other context, but lets just read it literally and then we can claim that Umineko is a true story. It makes about as much sense as what your saying. The point is it's solvable mystery. I don't think it really matters if it's meant to be a true story or a fictional one in the Umineko world. You just sound like your throwing around ideas without really thinking about what your saying.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 08:15. |
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2010-02-20, 08:37 | Link #1654 | ||||
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Battler is in the room. Kanon enters it. Battler leaves it. Kanon dies. "Erika" enters it. Room is sealed by repair of chain lock. OR Battler is in the room. Kanon enters it. "Erika" enters it. Room is sealed by repair of chain lock. Battler leaves. Kanon dies. You now have a room that meets those exact qualifications; Battler isn't in it, Erika is, the room is sealed, and Kanon doesn't exist in it (except a body exists in one place, the closet). Quote:
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2010-02-20, 08:48 | Link #1655 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Indonesia
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Hold on... If the logic error happened because no one can find Battler... or know how he disappeared... It's weird... I mean, Battler is now on the witch side, right? His unknown whereabout should be Erika's failure. He should have just said, I disappeared into thin air, and Erika would chew her nails... And Beato's method of saving him is by claiming Kanon saved him? And Kanon disappeared into thin air? from the closet? It's very... uh... circle-y? |
2010-02-20, 09:16 | Link #1656 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Yeah I'm honestly starting to get disoriented by Ryukishi's weird writing. I don't get what the intention behind making such a weird paradox was. It almost seems like it was intended create this kind of circle jerk.
I'm kind of suspicious of the moments in these core arcs where a lot of the reds have to do with checking where people do and do not exist. But I don't think these games are meant to make sense. They're solvable, but it seems the further you go in the further the writer intends to disorient the reader so that he can't think anymore. It's a weird kind of mystery that seems more like a psychological thriller or some kind of weird interactive meta fiction. Maybe we should start speculating on what the true nature of the meta world is.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-20 at 09:31. |
2010-02-20, 09:44 | Link #1657 | |
Storyteller
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Briefly, Battler is trying execute the game using humans, making it look like it was a witch's doing. He's not using magic or trying to prove that it exists.
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2010-02-20, 10:15 | Link #1658 |
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Location: Indonesia
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uh huh...
okay... I get until the point where there's no possible human method... So, how come Beato managed to solve the error by claiming Kanon disappeared with magic? I thought Battler only supposed to make scenarios, Erika solve them. |
2010-02-20, 11:16 | Link #1659 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
In the first four games, Lambda also verified that Beato never triggered a logic error. Battler just didn't know about it. |
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