Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) - World and Technology

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'd train some, too, but don't expect them to do more than slow the Titans down. (Though i guess getting the eyes could be useful).

Spoiler for manga, detail on Titan physiology:

They're tough. Like, really tough. Normal weapons aren't enough to bring them down. The swords used with the 3d gear are special, and I don't think you could get the necessary penetration with arrows.

What is so special about the blades? And why can't you make special arrow heads? Regular long bow arrows can pierce plate armor. I don't see how it cannot pierce giant's neck if you are able to cut it. The force of penetration on an arrow head far exceeds that of swinging blade, special or not.

[Anh_Minh]

Spoiler for answer:

They're tougher and hold a better edge. More flexible, too, but that's not relevant here.

Spoiler for future manga event:

At one point, someone used an ax against a small (3m or so) titan. It just couldn't penetrate enough.

Spoiler for canons, I think it was mentioned in ep 5:

Grapeshot, even to the back of the beck, isn't lethal. Do you think arrows would do better?

Shells can kill a giant, but it'd take a miracle for one of them to hit the right spot.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The problem with traps is that they'd have to be smart (meaning, someone would have to man them), and maintained. And at most they'll slow down one titan each. It's not a bad idea, but it's not a cure-all either.

Personally, I'd want a trap to capture a Titan. You could learn a lot more about them that way by direct observation (outside of battle) and experimentation.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Spoiler for answer:

They're tougher and hold a better edge. More flexible, too, but that's not relevant here.

Spoiler for future manga event:

At one point, someone used an ax against a small (3m or so) titan. It just couldn't penetrate enough.

Spoiler for canons, I think it was mentioned in ep 5:

Grapeshot, even to the back of the beck, isn't lethal. Do you think arrows would do better?

Shells can kill a giant, but it'd take a miracle for one of them to hit the right spot.

Use axe against plate mail and you can't penetrate either. Axe can't even go through chain mail easily. Arrows have no such problem. Unless the blade is made some special material with special tech, i don't see how arrows won't work where blades would. And even if it is, use the same tech and material on arrow heads is all you need. Grapeshot is equivalent of 1 arrow. 1 arrow may not be lethal, 100 would be, or at least it is more damage then simply cutting in melee range.

[PzIVf3]

Engaging at close distance is very risky and unpredictable behavior moves.

Delivering heavy sniper rifle against the enemy giant target, which cannot be engaged successfully because of range, location, fleeting nature and visibility.

[Seitsuki]

The biggest problem here is that the Titan's weak spot isn't like some sort of 'hit it and it dies' thing. One arrow just won't do jack. And one person fires one arrow a time. Sure you could have hundreds firing, but remember: they need to be up close to be accurate, and if you have so many focusing on one Titan what about the hundreds of others rampaging through the place? Melee at least gives the potential for one person to take out one Titan. With such puny ranged weapons you will need far too many people vs one Titan for it to be feasible. All while they're being targeted by other Titans. How well can you aim and shoot knowing that a hand might reach out and grab you any second?

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Use axe against plate mail and you can't penetrate either. Axe can't even go through chain mail easily. Arrows have no such problem. Unless the blade is made some special material with special tech, i don't see how arrows won't work where blades would. And even if it is, use the same tech and material on arrow heads is all you need. Grapeshot is equivalent of 1 arrow. 1 arrow may not be lethal, 100 would be, or at least it is more damage then simply cutting in melee range.

that's because arrow moves at a certain speed where you can't achieve it just by swinging a blade/axe
not in this case because the speed advantage arrow has is covered by 3D Maneuvers gear

In normal condition i.e. people swinging a blade and the other shooting an arrow, you might be able to argue that arrow has more penetration power to do so, but let's refresh your memory from scenes from episode 2
in episode 2, Jean & Eren specifically said that they weren't able to cut deep enough (especially if you compare those to what Mikasa did)
Momentum = Mass*Velocity

Eren and Jean weigh around 55-60Kg, arrow probably only weigh less than 1 -2Kg and I highly doubt it will go around 50times faster than 3D Maneuvers gear to achieve the required momentum and penetrate deep enough through Titan skin (not to mention they also swing their hand/blade as hard as they could before hitting the neck part which increase the momentum tremendously)

Soldier = 50kg
Speed = 5m/s
Momentum = 250 kg m/s + the swing  power (differs from person to person)

arrow = 1kg
Speed = 5m/s
Momentum = 5 kg m/s + none

(5/250)*100 =  2%

hence assuming arrow and 3D gear have the same speed, arrow will only deal 2% damage (max) of what swinging blade could achieve

*all the number above just an assumption to prove my point

you can argue that you can deal enough damage by using many archers at the same time creating some sort of arrow rain, but again by doing so you will need space to accomodate all the archers (I don't see the wall or street are wide enough to fit all those archers).
It will also lose even more power compared to just aim straight to the target.

and the problem here is not just dealing enough damage but dealing deep enough damage.

and assuming your method is working, the problem appears 100 years after peaceful era of humanity without any significant attack of "normal" titan behind the wall where 60m Colossus Titan (that can appear & disappear and generating some sort of steam enough to repel Eren and his 3D Maneuvers gear let alone an arrow) and armored titan (which could repel a goddamn cannonball so an arrow is not so much a threat is it?) suddenly appeared and destroy their peaceful day

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

The deaths in episode 5 weren't due to any problems with the 3D gear though. They were cause by rash actions and bad luck.

Lucky? Ok... I say they're very unlucky from the start....

[MasterVampire]

So after that debarcle of an attack in Episode 5 I think they really need better tactics.

Maybe if one human distracts a titan while another human attacks its neck from behind.
So set it up so its like 2 humans per titan.
The human being the distraction could just move around or maybe throw smoke bombs.

And what about using that wire in the 3dgear to trip them up or tie up their feet?

[Warm Mist]

^ I don't know, in ep 5 they were taken by surprise many times. That's probably a big problem in urban areas, since not every titan is enormous and can be noticed at +50m. What if another titan caught the distraction or the attacker?

If you assume nothing unexpected happens and have 2 humans against a titan, I don't think tactics matter that much since the humans will move much faster than the titan and reach the nape easily. In reality, that doesn't happen.

[Jaden]

Yeah, archers could probably accomplish at least as much as they're doing now with the swords and 3DGs. If there was a bunch of archers on the walls, they could get free potshots on the necks of titans that get through.

Whether an arrow does more damage than a sword stab is a futile discussion when the author already admits to all kinds of troll physics, so I won't get into that.

The cannons are at least a little bit effective when aimed at the enemy's face. They make more sense as a weapon of choice for a civilization that placed absolute faith in their walls. Archers and especially mounted archers, not so much.

[jeroz]

So you are suggesting that they stationed a team at the gate and try not to exhaust the ammunition nor get spotted?

It *could* work, but only at the base. Not to mention there's not much open windows for them to shoot from.
This is also assuming that there won't be intelligent titans who spots the trend and will try to take down the archers either.

[Accelolita_]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

What is so special about the blades? And why can't you make special arrow heads? Regular long bow arrows can pierce plate armor. I don't see how it cannot pierce giant's neck if you are able to cut it. The force of penetration on an arrow head far exceeds that of swinging blade, special or not.

It's not only about how deep something can get into the giant's flesh, it's about cutting a large piece out of the nape of their neck. And there's a reason why that is.
And last I know, arrows can only pierce through something, not cut some huge junk of meat out.

Also, the problem is surely not the 3D Gear, it's the people using it

Spoiler for manga spoiler, I guess, even though only minor:

since there're people that appear later that can use that gear quite well in killing several titans.

[Warm Mist]

You won't be able to do stuff with arrows and zero mobility, the titans are extremely numerous and once they enter the city they WILL catch you off-guard, especially if you're standing.
The titans can run, jump and tear buildings down, they aren't Romero zombies. And good luck shooting arrows from up the 50m wall and hoping that's enough to clear the titans off without running out of ammo.

[p-kun]

What's with this obsession about arrows. Guns > arrows. They have guns and they still don't use it because in this setting, swords are more effective. Honestly, discussion about why humans do not invent highly accurate armor piercing guns/cannons will make more sense compared to some people's obsession about arrows.

[Libros]

There's this one thing about the wall that I've had a hard time understanding so far: with the Titans roaming around how did the humans before the events of our story get the time to build a wall that was, what 50+ meters tall and wide enough to easily hold over 250k people and their homes(It was said that was how many people were sacrificed so the inner wall wouldn't go hungry)?

[yankky5]

Originally Posted by Libros

There's this one thing about the wall that I've had a hard time understanding so far: with the Titans roaming around how did the humans before the events of our story get the time to build a wall that was, what 50+ meters tall and wide enough to easily hold over 250k people and their homes(It was said that was how many people were sacrificed so the inner wall wouldn't go hungry)?

Its a secret~~.

unless you wanna read the manga though hopefully the series will have an ova on how the great wall was built xD

Also guys have you ever heard of an HE round or Hollow point bullet

[zRichard]

Respoting on relevant thread:

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I don't know if people don't read the posts or just skim past them. I will format it in an fashion that is easier to read:

1. Arrow cannot penetrate neck skin.
Arrows have far more penetration power then swinging a blade. If a blade can cut it, arrows can penetrate it. Long bow arrows are used to penetrate plate armor in the 14th and 15th century.

Maybe, but as someone said before, it's a pin-point attack. What do we know about the titan's weakpoint so far? That you need to attack the whole area, we don't even know if the thing that kills them is deep or not. We don't know if it's a small organ or a wide web of nerves. Or even if all titans have it exactly in the same place.

We only know more or less where it is, so, that reduces your idea to explosive arrows only.

Also, blades have far more momentum than arrows. It's like comparing a guillotine vs arrow when it comes to beheading humans.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

2. Not enough damage from arrows.
Lots of arrows hitting giant neck will do more damage then cuts. Explosive arrows
will blow the entire area into pieces.

Melee needs one very skilled soldier to cut down a titan. Normal Arrows needs many of them per Titan. This completely discards normal arrows, because is too ineffective to have that many soldiers attacking each titan in synchronous formations/tactics.

On explosive arrows: I told you before, we don't know if they have the chemical knowledge to develop lightweight/very stable/portable/highly-volatile/impermeable explosives like C4. You are assuming too much.

They have gunpodwer tech, but the amount they need to blow off their weakpoint would make the arrows weight to much. I don't think this weight would hinder their ability to shoot accurately, but the ammunition that each soldier would be able to carry will be limited. Carrying too much of these explosive arrows would definitively affect the all-important mobility. Also, rain renders gunpodwer useless afaik.

Finally, RESOURCES. I can imagine each of those arrows being more expensive than a single blade. And each blade can be used for many titans, their durability will be show next week.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

3. Giant's neck is hard to hit because it is moving.
It's far easier to hit a big area on a big dumb target that is moving at a constant speed in a predicable fashion. If an archer can hit a bird flying, he or she can hit a large patch of skin on the giant's neck that is moving far slower.

Big dumb: You are assuming that Titans ignore humans and mind their own thing like most birds do. They don't. An archer would need to stay at a distance from them, hindering accuracy for an already reduced range due to heavier explosive arrows.
Predictable fashion: One of the first things this episode showed us is how unpredictable they are. You are wrong on this one. Many arrows will miss and that will hit on the soldier's stamina harder than melee.
Slow: Somewhat true, but not all of them are like that. There are deviant titans that can lounge towards a flying human.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

4. Neck will regenerate as well.
Well with arrows, especially explosive ones, you do far more damage, far faster then getting close and cut with swords, even if you are spinning to slice pieces off, and also with zero risk of you being picked off before you even get the cut in, just like Eren's squad.

Yes, if c4 explosive arrows are a possibility, they would be the better weapon.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

The only reason why the author isn't having the humans using archers is because either he didn't think it through himself or force plot into a certain direction, in which case he should have given better reasoning why bows don't work against giants. What we know so far from these first episodes does not give sufficient cause to favor melee combat over range combat, especially at the horrible exchange rate for a kill.

The author, through his world building, can "force" humanity to fight one way or the other. It is fair game as long as he doesn't present a clearly better tool to fight Titans, like an abundance of advanced explosives. Bows and Arrows exist in the SnK world, but there are reasons why they are useless. You just can't accept those reasons as "sufficient".

It is not fair game is to twist the world of that author to create those new tools for yourself. Which is what you are doing. You are assuming too much things about their military technology.

[n120cky]

After seeing episode 5 I noticed that the training method they use (dummy wooden titan) not even close to the real battle, in the real battle the titans (not only the jumping titan) have a good reflect when compared to the silly wooden one. I think they should find another way of training.

[Accelolita_]

Originally Posted by n120cky

After seeing episode 5 I noticed that the training method they use (dummy wooden titan) not even close to the real battle, in the real battle the titans (not only the jumping titan) have a good reflect when compared to the silly wooden one. I think they should find another way of training.

I think the training with the wooden one was for them to train their accuracy in hitting the right spot (and deep enough) and even at something that didn't move some of them weren't exactly skilled doing so

But yeah, I agree they should find another training method. And if it's only starting to move the wooden things around a bit (I'm sure they could manage that somehow). And maybe some things that get thrown towards the trainees (which could be a hand of a titan irl situation) or something like that.