Toradora! - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Here's where I suggest that if you actually want to appreciate japanese entertainment, drama, comedy, etc --- some study of japanese culture, society, etiquette, and language would be really helpful (just like the entertainment of any other culture). Social values and etiquette at least...

Otherwise, quite a number of decisions characters make in various anime, manga, or film are not going to make any sense at all....

I'm familiar with asian norms because I've studied chinese and japanese cultural via, novels and expierence with asian people in general, plus I'm asain from a traditional asain family, I enjoy subtlety, and a lot about asain culture is subtle and not overt beat you over head symbolism unless its spicy food, then all bets are off. My point is you have these great characters, that all follow the typical self sacrificing asain paradigm, of helping others in their time of need. My father is like minori, cept hes a dude and he brandishes a cane to keep me in line, but I completely understand were shes coming from, but it doesn't stop me from feeling terrible for her because she really likes ryuuji and she really likes taiga so in either situation it was painful, but instead she put her friend first which is fine, the reason I have a problem with the scene, is that once Minori ends the possiblity of the relationship, she inadvertently reveals that she wanted one to ryuuji, assuming he got the metaphor that he was being dumped. So once you take into account these things, Ryuuji constantly floundering on the issue makes me frustrated. I could compare him to a more manly man, ie Tomoya, but that would be unfair, because Tomoya is a far superior man than Takasu could ever dream to be. I understand he has these latent feeling about taiga, but Tomoya had those same feeling toward Nagisa, but you don't see him actively claiming that he loves other girls. Ryuuji was missing closure at the end, from the way the novel ends, it provides more emotional closure for ryuuji which I think they probably should have went for something closer to the novel

ps. go watch clannad ep18 its the bomb, what a drama should be like.

[Vexx]

I'll agree that it would be nice if the anime had the time budget to follow the novels more closely -- and that apparently we'll have to wait for the next episode to see what anime-Ryuuji thinks of all this. And there's definitely nothing wrong with feeling awful for Minori... the way episode 19 ends many people are feeling awful for Minori, Ami, Taiga, and Ryuuji and the miserable state they're all in. Ryuuji is simply too shy and Minorin decided early on to ward him off because *she* thinks Taiga needs him more than she does. Her rejection in episode 19 asserts that though it might easily have flipped the other way if she hadn't seen Taiga's "true state" instead of the face Taiga presented Minorin to convince her that she had to see Ryuuji.

Yes, I've seen Clannad (based on a game rather than a novel series). Its an excellent drama as well but the story lines are a bit different for me to be comparing them very closely. The characters in Toradora are also extremely dysfunctional - all of them; whereas Clannad was populated with more, shall we say, "normal" characters.

So far my opinion of Toradora is that its a pretty decent anime story on its own (pretty decent, not necessarily The Best Thing Evar, but better than a lot of junk out there). I'm enjoying the story immensely and it did its job --- I'm buying/reading the novels and manga. OTOH, as an adaptation of the novel series, my critique is a bit harsh: its more mediocre --- too many slices to too many moments -- 25 episodes is simply impossible as a time budget to meaningfully portray 10 volumes of fairly complex characters and plot. The executives who made that decision miscalculated, imo.

But hey... if Kanon got remade, maybe Toradora will be revisited by someone with a bigger time budget in a few years...

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by frivolity

This episode reminded me of a famous Christmas short story, where the main character sold his watch to buy a beautiful hairclip for his wife, only to find that his wife had cut her hair and sold it to buy a trinket that would match her husband's watch.

Here, Taiga gave Ryuuji a suit to impress Minori during the party, but Ryuuji traded the suit for a bear costume to impress her. The specific events of the stories aren't exactly the same of course, but the whole episode had a similar feel to me.

Kinda off topic, but the story would be "The Gift of the Magi" by O. Henry.

And yeah I sorta see where you're getting that.

[Vexx]

Actually not a bad catch.... almost seems like everyone in this episode was trying to give each other what they thought they wanted and it spiraled down

[Reckoner]

Sigh, this is why I hate when I unwillingly end up shipping for characters. Minorin is screwed in this series . The episode was very good, however, my enjoyment was killed because of biases.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Sigh, this is why I hate when I unwillingly end up shipping for characters. Minorin is screwed in this series . The episode was very good, however, my enjoyment was killed because of biases.

Why let the grievances of others spoil your enjoyment? If you like this episode, no damn shipper is gonna take it from you.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Why let the grievances of others spoil your enjoyment? If you like this episode, no damn shipper is gonna take it from you.

heh.. you missed his point. He was lamenting that HE had gotten very attached to Minorin and was depressed over her choices this episode. He had let his own 'shipping for her interfere with his enjoyment of the story.

It wasn't other ships that bothered him. He was beating himself up.

I'm working very hard not to assume any particular ending though it does seem to be the darkest moment in the series so far. I've been spoiled a bit on the contents of volume 9 but volume 10 (as yet unreleased) .... well, its an entire volume -- a whole bunch of shit can happen, pardon my crudity.

[Kafriel]

The most painful thing is...the 6 days I need to wait for episode 20!

[physics223]

I'll reiterate my stance (as some sort of caveat): I am very, very fond of Ami. I very well know that things are not going to end with what I desire, but I'm still quite open to the majesty of Toradora's storytelling.

Despite this, however, I really dislike that coincidence that Minori saw Taiga at the exact moment she broke down in tears, crying for Ryuuji. I am of the belief that Minori was prepared to answer Ryuuji truthfully and perhaps accede to his advances. After seeing that, however, she simply reversed her decision, primarily because she didn't want Taiga to suffer. I know there are some friendships that are transcendent and like that, but I just thought it was stupid to cause pain for two people (herself and Ryuuji) than to cause pain for Taiga, who (despite everything) deserves her solitude with her treatment of Ryuuji.

I'm sure she cared for him and all, but she was also pining for Kitamura and made it a point to denigrate Ryuuji for his little mistakes. She has changed for the better, sure, but not to the extent that she deserves Ryuuji's kindness or love. Minori, on the other hand, does.

I am very aware that this is merely the author's wishes and it is quite inflexible at this late stage, but I simply wish that they would convince me, the viewer, that Taiga deserves Ryuuji at the end of this. If that's all that she'd do or would do, I will be very angry, and the reason is not about freight or shipping: people get hurt, all because of Taiga, and she'll be paired up with Ryuuji just because she's Taiga? That's a load of bullshit, pardon the rudeness.

(Before anything goes awry, I don't blame Taiga or Minori for their actions. If anything, it's the author who should convince us, the viewer.)

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by physics223

I'll reiterate my stance (as some sort of caveat): I am very, very fond of Ami. I very well know that things are not going to end with what I desire, but I'm still quite open to the majesty of Toradora's storytelling.

Despite this, however, I really dislike that coincidence that Minori saw Taiga at the exact moment she broke down in tears, crying for Ryuuji. I am of the belief that Minori was prepared to answer Ryuuji truthfully and perhaps accede to his advances. After seeing that, however, she simply reversed her decision, primarily because she didn't want Taiga to suffer. I know there are some friendships that are transcendent and like that, but I just thought it was stupid to cause pain for two people (herself and Ryuuji) than to cause pain for Taiga, who (despite everything) deserves her solitude with her treatment of Ryuuji.

I'm sure she cared for him and all, but she was also pining for Kitamura and made it a point to denigrate Ryuuji for his little mistakes. She has changed for the better, sure, but not to the extent that she deserves Ryuuji's kindness or love. Minori, on the other hand, does.

I am very aware that this is merely the author's wishes and it is quite inflexible at this late stage, but I simply wish that they would convince me, the viewer, that Taiga deserves Ryuuji at the end of this. If that's all that she'd do or would do, I will be very angry, and the reason is not about freight or shipping: people get hurt, all because of Taiga, and she'll be paired up with Ryuuji just because she's Taiga? That's a load of bullshit, pardon the rudeness.

(Before anything goes awry, I don't blame Taiga or Minori for their actions. If anything, it's the author who should convince us, the viewer.)

Thanks mate, you hit the nail right on the head!!!

I dont actually dislike any of the characters in the series which at the same time has irked me about the developments of this ep. While not all the characters are equal story wise as individuals in a situation, i hate the fact that characters like Ami and Minori seemed to be seriously crapped on by circumstances.

Taiga was the last one to find out about her feelings and yet shes gets to end up with the one she likes?? I feel there should be some kind of you snooze - you lose element in the story.

Wow, Taiga looks so cute on Christmas...oh wait she just thought of a scenario without Ryuuji'...look how loud shes crying she must be in the deepest pain...

Now lets see Minori and Ami and how long have they KNOWN that the person they like may not possibly be with them...days? weeks?..months? O wait they also have to put on a straight face and smile for that whole time as well. Please, while Taiga's epiphany may be more dramatic, Ami or Minori's pain could easily be on the same level as Taiga's.

I agree with you that the situation seems to revolve around Taiga while technically if you were part of their world Ami and Minori are no less important or special than Taiga yet these past couple of eps she had it the easiest...

Im just sayin.

[Momosan]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

Now lets see Minori and Ami and how long have they KNOWN that the person they like may not possibly be with them...days? weeks?..months? O wait they also have to put on a straight face and smile for that whole time as well. Please, while Taiga's epiphany may be more dramatic, Ami or Minori's pain could easily be on the same level as Taiga's.

Really? On the same level? Highly doubtful seeing as how neither are as close to Ryuuji as Taiga is. Ami understood from the beginning that Ryuuji had feelings for others and as such as been playing a more passive game of love. Minorin was practically confessed to by Ryuuji and pretty much told him that she needed more time. The moment Taiga realizes her feelings she tries to chase him down to stop him from leaving. All three instances are pretty symbolic to their levels of affection for Ryuuji IMO.

It's hard to bring myself to pity Minorin. I've always wondered if Minorin knew/surmised that Taiga liked Ryuuji even tho she was pining for Kitamura. Taiga doesn't seem like the type of person who would tell Minorin she liked Ryuuji. In Episode 10 after Ryuuji confesses it pans out to a shot of Taiga holding a sparkler that burns out and her expression is pretty depressing which leads me to wonder if Taiga's secretly liked Ryuuji for a while but didn't say anything because she didn't want to hurt Minorin's shot with him. If that was the case though, it makes me wonder why it took nine more episodes for it to finally kick in.

[CaptGloval]

Originally Posted by physics223

Despite this, however, I really dislike that coincidence that Minori saw Taiga at the exact moment she broke down in tears, crying for Ryuuji. I am of the belief that Minori was prepared to answer Ryuuji truthfully and perhaps accede to his advances. After seeing that, however, she simply reversed her decision, primarily because she didn't want Taiga to suffer.

They say the novel had Minori visiting Taiga first before going to the party. She wanted to know if Taiga has feelings for Ryuuji. So I don't think she already has an answer for Ryuuji at that time.

[frivolity]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but half of the equation is, who does Ryuuji like? I don't just mean "like", in which case it'd be Minori, but I'm referring to who does he "like like" deep down? If both Ryuuji and Minori are in love with each other, but decide to separate to prevent Taiga from getting hurt, then I agree that it's wrong. I don't see it that way though. To me, Taiga and Ryuuji have loved each other for quite some time, just that they didn't know it yet. I believe that even if Minori were to be truthful about her feelings, Ryuuji would eventually find out that Taiga's the one for him. In that respect, I don't find anything strange with the recent events in ToraDora. Love isn't a race after all.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Momosan

Minorin was practically confessed to by Ryuuji and pretty much told him that she needed more time.

When was she confessed to...at the villa? She was just asked if she had a boyfriend? Thats hardly a confession. Girls during conversations ask me if I have a girlfriend, I dont consider that a confession.

Originally Posted by Momosan

It's hard to bring myself to pity Minorin. I've always wondered if Minorin knew/surmised that Taiga liked Ryuuji even tho she was pining for Kitamura. Taiga doesn't seem like the type of person who would tell Minorin she liked Ryuuji. In Episode 10 after Ryuuji confesses it pans out to a shot of Taiga holding a sparkler that burns out and her expression is pretty depressing which leads me to wonder if Taiga's secretly liked Ryuuji for a while but didn't say anything because she didn't want to hurt Minorin's shot with him. If that was the case though, it makes me wonder why it took nine more episodes for it to finally kick in.

So how is that Minorin's fault that she had a feeling that Taiga liked Ryuuji? She also witnessed Taiga crying her eyes out and getting into fights for Kitamura...but really how close was Taiga to him? Taiga had no clue that she liked Ryuuji at the time if she actually did...(yes she cared greatly for him but she also cared greatly for Kitamura, so who is it?) Isnt it possible that a deep care for Ryuuji only slowly grew into a romantic affection after Minorin and Ami already realised their attraction to Ryuuj.

The reason Taiga is so close to Ryuuji compared to the other characters is because the others once again bend over backwards for her...who at least consciously doesn't even realise she likes Ryuuji...which again is not either Ami or Minorin's fault.

It doesnt matter, thats simply how I feel.

Ami and Minorin totally get the short end of the stick and while I dont hate Taiga I dont see what makes her more deserving unless maybe cause shes needs to eat better food - which again doesnt require her to be in bf-gf relationship.

EDIT: There are different types of love. If Taiga actually loved Ryuuj as a boyfriend from the beginning what was all this concern for Kitamura? Did she love them both? I believe Taigas love/care for Ryuuj changed over time and that she didnt simple realise deep hidden feelings from so long ago just now.

[physics223]

There is an inherent bias in only showing Taiga bawling and not the other girls: it would allow us to commiserate with her more instead and remove our focus from the others. I think people would think a lot differently regarding Taiga and the other women if the episode showed all three of them crying: Ami silently having tears fall from her eyes; Minori bawling after she rejected Ryuuji; and Taiga with her actions in the episode. If this were the case, I doubt most people would sympathize with Taiga compared to Ami or Minori. Ultimately, the most tragic character isn't Taiga: it's Ami or Minori.

One has to deal with being an outsider despite her love; one has to choose between friendship and love; Taiga only has the difficulty of being alone (and I doubt Ryuuji would leave her alone even if Minori and him went out). Weighing all three of their problems as regards their gravity, I don't think Taiga bears the heaviest burden.

To some extent Ryuuji reminds me of Mayama: even if Mayama does not require Yamada's love for him, he cares about her deeply and doesn't really leave her alone. He treats her as a valuable friend, and in time Yamada found Nomiya, who, while not Mayama, is slowly allowing her to move on. Mayama went on to change the life of Rika, who he truly loved.

I never blamed Mayama for what he did. If Ryuuji followed his heart and went with Minori, I wouldn't blame him either. I don't blame Taiga for her late realization as well, but if it didn't go her way I don't think she has anybody to blame.

(I hope I made sense. But I'm pretty fired-up regarding this.)

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by frivolity

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but half of the equation is, who does Ryuuji like? I don't just mean "like", in which case it'd be Minori, but I'm referring to who does he "like like" deep down? If both Ryuuji and Minori are in love with each other, but decide to separate to prevent Taiga from getting hurt, then I agree that it's wrong. I don't see it that way though. To me, Taiga and Ryuuji have loved each other for quite some time, just that they didn't know it yet. I believe that even if Minori were to be truthful about her feelings, Ryuuji would eventually find out that Taiga's the one for him. In that respect, I don't find anything strange with the recent events in ToraDora. Love isn't a race after all.

It's the same thing i think... Ami is correct in the whole thing about Ryuuji playing Daddy with Taiga, Ryuuji fall for Taiga without noticed it, you can say a lot of things as excuses to those actions, but Ryuuji really is acting as someone who really likes Taiga, no as a friend, but as a lover. He even felt some jelaous at the restaurant when Taiga sit next to Kitamura. Taiga noticed how much she loves Ryuuji, so here it comes her own hell, Who she loves more, Kitamura or Ryuuji?.

It's all about to be honest, if both of them are honest and think how close they are and how they cant stand to be apart...

I think that even Ami's advice are telling Ryuuji to stop playing daddy with Taiga and be honest that he is really in love of Taiga.

[typhonsentra]

I don't think that was the reason Ami said that at all, I don't get the impression she's trying to play matchmaker.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I think that even Ami's advice are telling Ryuuji to stop playing daddy with Taiga and be honest that he is really in love of Taiga.

That's one possibility... the things that Ami say can usually be interpreted in more than one way though. So we can't be so sure.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

That's one possibility... the things that Ami say can usually be interpreted in more than one way though. So we can't be so sure.

Well thats the thing, I think one possible reason with the disagreements is that many people who dont mind whats happening believe that Taiga's love (as in girlfriend love) for Ryuuji was there from the start as was Ryuujis' love for Taiga.

Others think yea, yea so she final realizes she likes the guy but when did these like-like feelings actually occur? Some people think these feelings changed over time.

When Ami confronted Ryuuji about the relationship, it was not to push him to Taiga but to realise how exactly do you feel for her. He definitely cared for Taiga, but whos to say it was an affection of a boyfriend? She was asking if you care for her as a dear friend but only as that, then you better start noticing other girls eg. Minori and of course herself. She even states girls dont like guys who always pay attention to one girl...so if you dont care to go to the next stage with Taiga get over your sole dependence/commitment to her.

I mean if both Taiga and Ryuuji romantically loved each other from the start..whats with all the awkwardness with other people? Unless of course they weren't romantically involved ( evenly subconsciously) as they were interested in other people...

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I don't think that was the reason Ami said that at all, I don't get the impression she's trying to play matchmaker.

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

That's one possibility... the things that Ami say can usually be interpreted in more than one way though. So we can't be so sure.

Exactly... Ami is not clear about her feelings, she is using an indirect approach to Ryuuji, with speeches about minori and taiga, but she is not talking about her and how she sees Ryuuji.

In every romantic title as Toradora and such, that is the main problem, no one speaks clearly. Ami really needs to grab Ryuuji take him to a quiet place and tell him her feelings, from there she can be accepted or rejected. Just after that you can feel all kind of regrets, but not before.

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

I mean if both Taiga and Ryuuji romantically loved each other from the start..whats with all the awkwardness with other people? Unless of course they weren't romantically involved ( evenly subconsciously) as they were interested in other people...

The key here is the background, remember the background of those two, both were looking as delinquents, people was afraid of them, so, when they met each other and start to be seen together, all kind of rumors started, remember the first episodes and how Taiga reacted to that.

So, until Sumire vs. Taiga fight, everybody thought that Taiga and Ryuuji were a couple. Even Kihara is still hoping that Ryuuji and Taiga stay together because she likes Kitamura too. Kashii OTOH seems to know about Ami's feelings and she is helping her, Noto is trying to help Taiga and Kitamura.

Now, between the main circle:
- Kitamura is living her rejection now... doing silly things... i dont know his feelings for Taiga now that Sumire is away. But, i think that he thinks that taiga and ryuuji are a couple.
- Ami, she is trying (in a light way) that Ryuuji sees her differently, i dont know what she is up to, because if he ends that House Game, he will see Taiga as a woman and not as his child, that could be a backfire to Ami's intentions. She likes Ryuuji.
- Minori, she loves Taiga, she is sacrifying herself for Taiga's happiness, period. She will support Taiga X Ryuuji i think.
- Ryuuji, he and Kitamura were rejected, now we must see what will be Ryuuji's reactins.
- Taiga... she needs to make a choice between Kitamura and Ryuuji,

So, as you can see, even in the main circle, Taiga and Ryuuji are seen as a couple, we need to know if Ryuuji will starts to see Taiga as a woman and if Taiga will choose Ryuuji or Kitamura.