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View Poll Results: To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 22 Rating
Perfect 10 7 30.43%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 8 34.78%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 30.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 0 0%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 4.35%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2019-03-20, 22:43   Link #201
Cosmic Eagle
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
 
 
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Originally Posted by DragonXX View Post
There 3 things above Keter, those you could say there the same thing. Ain/Ein No-thing, Ain Soph/Ein Sof The Bounndless and Ain Soph Aur/Ohr Ein Sof The Limitless Light/ Endless Lights. There also Tzimtzum.
Well, yes the Ein Sof is further described by these three aspects but they are technically in union. Anyway, do Thelemites regard the 3 0s as separate?
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Old 2019-03-21, 08:53   Link #202
NeutralZero
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So far
Shiage is trully phathetic as describe
And misaka going kyaa and yay now that she is included.
That gal need to keep her priorities...
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Old 2019-03-21, 09:39   Link #203
Kuroageha
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Those ARE her priorities, the rest is secondary to her
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Old 2019-03-21, 18:54   Link #204
Keila
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Originally Posted by Kuroageha View Post
Those ARE her priorities, the rest is secondary to her
Which makes it all the more endearing (all things considered). I mean she's (more or less) literally walking through a hellish world where 'common sense' doesn't apply just to stand/fight beside the boy she likes and be useful to him. I mean could you imagine Misaka being the sort of girl who makes lunch for the boy she likes and then being happy that he enjoys her cooking (putting aside that Index would eat it and all that). I mean the closest we've had of that is with cookies (and that didn't really work out in her favor).
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Old 2019-03-22, 07:02   Link #205
Chosen_Hero
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So good to see Kamijou senpai is finally teaching Misaka how to navigate the magic world.

Hamazura has really fallen low, it's one thing to want to help someone but he is doing so at the cost of literally every other human life (his girlfriend included). Like I said, he is acting no different than the antagonists Touma has punched. He chose the quick and easy way to save someone instead of looking for a better way or
properly asking someone for help.
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Old 2019-03-22, 11:33   Link #206
Fortitude
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
So good to see Kamijou senpai is finally teaching Misaka how to navigate the magic world.

Hamazura has really fallen low, it's one thing to want to help someone but he is doing so at the cost of literally every other human life (his girlfriend included). Like I said, he is acting no different than the antagonists Touma has punched. He chose the quick and easy way to save someone instead of looking for a better way or
properly asking someone for help.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But then again you know the old saying:"Love makes you dumb". Which is appropriate to Hamazura since he didn't bother try to contact Touma or Accelerator for their help. Instead he decided to toss any common sense out the window and thinks only with his dick.
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Old 2019-03-22, 12:31   Link #207
Requiem-x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
So good to see Kamijou senpai is finally teaching Misaka how to navigate the magic world.
Does "We'll figure it out what's going on when we get there!"really count as guidance? Well, it IS a very Touma AND Mikoto-like answer. Nevermind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
Hamazura has really fallen low, it's one thing to want to help someone but he is doing so at the cost of literally every other human life (his girlfriend included). Like I said, he is acting no different than the antagonists Touma has punched. He chose the quick and easy way to save someone instead of looking for a better way or
properly asking someone for help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortitude View Post
But then again you know the old saying:"Love makes you dumb". Which is appropriate to Hamazura since he didn't bother try to contact Touma or Accelerator for their help. Instead he decided to toss any common sense out the window and thinks only with his dick.
It's not so much the easy way or love as the belief no one else would go out of their way to help Dion, because that's a situation Shiage has been in before, and despite having it the best amongst the MCs (so far), he's fixated on the world not being nearly that kind (of course, that last part comes from us having the reader advantage, but you'd still think Shiage's outlook on life would be a bit brighter by now), or himself as utterly incapable of doing anything else. Of course, he still deserves to get his pathetic illusions shattered, though whether it is by Touma or Rikou is still up for debate.
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Old 2019-03-22, 15:04   Link #208
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Try to be in Shiage's shoes a bit.

He did ask the two magic gods for help and they said they can't. He tried to contract magic side, but they (Kaori) knocked him out without asking. There is no way he can know whereabouts of Touma and his ally. Accel has been automatically seen him as enemy.

He has tried all alternative within his power so in his viewpoint there is no other way left. Then he ran into Coronzon - his best hope so far. (Which let be honest, he and his girlfriend probably died right there if he didn't come up with the proposal).
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Old 2019-03-22, 19:51   Link #209
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^Nepthys and Niang Niang can't help mostly because as Magic gods they can't intervene (although they do like just doing random shit).

As for the whole Kanzaki thing, Hamazura didn't even try to communicate properly with them, literally the first thing he did was sneak away from them. Heck, he even had a proper chance of getting help due to helping Queen Elizard who he then just as quickly betrayed.

If he had stuck around he would have met up with Touma and the others and if he had explained it to them Touma would have definitely tried to help in some way. Aliester could have probably found a way to bring her back with the help of Index and Fran who saw where she was made and the tools used to create her. Queen Elizard would have been in his debt and could have done something to research how to save Dion Fortune (considering the amount of bs and deus ex machina moments that have saved him so far he could have gotten away from Choronzon in some way), etc, etc. Hamazura had plenty of alternate ways to find help, but he jumped the gun and went with the quick and easy answer that appeared before him.

Like I said, his actions in this volume are not that different from those of past antagonists who were trying to do a good thing the wrong way out of desperation and in that desperation he was willing to let others die and suffer for the sake of achieving his goal.

Sure, he was trying to help someone and that is not a bad thing, but he knowingly went along with the villain who he knew was trying to destroy every human alive. If anything at this point Hamazura is more of an Anti Touma than Kamisato himself.
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Old 2019-03-22, 20:46   Link #210
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
^Nepthys and Niang Niang can't help mostly because as Magic gods they can't intervene (although they do like just doing random shit).

As for the whole Kanzaki thing, Hamazura didn't even try to communicate properly with them, literally the first thing he did was sneak away from them. Heck, he even had a proper chance of getting help due to helping Queen Elizard who he then just as quickly betrayed.

If he had stuck around he would have met up with Touma and the others and if he had explained it to them Touma would have definitely tried to help in some way. Aliester could have probably found a way to bring her back with the help of Index and Fran who saw where she was made and the tools used to create her. Queen Elizard would have been in his debt and could have done something to research how to save Dion Fortune (considering the amount of bs and deus ex machina moments that have saved him so far he could have gotten away from Choronzon in some way), etc, etc. Hamazura had plenty of alternate ways to find help, but he jumped the gun and went with the quick and easy answer that appeared before him.

Like I said, his actions in this volume are not that different from those of past antagonists who were trying to do a good thing the wrong way out of desperation and in that desperation he was willing to let others die and suffer for the sake of achieving his goal.

Sure, he was trying to help someone and that is not a bad thing, but he knowingly went along with the villain who he knew was trying to destroy every human alive. If anything at this point Hamazura is more of an Anti Touma than Kamisato himself.
No wonder Touma's magical allies couldn't trust him.

He literally tries to sneak away rather from them instead of, oh i don't know, ask for their help.

I get that he's desperate but his actions is less than endearing and have cause a lot of Touma's allies to look at him with justified distrust.
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Old 2019-03-22, 21:13   Link #211
bakato
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
^Nepthys and Niang Niang can't help mostly because as Magic gods they can't intervene (although they do like just doing random shit).

As for the whole Kanzaki thing, Hamazura didn't even try to communicate properly with them, literally the first thing he did was sneak away from them. Heck, he even had a proper chance of getting help due to helping Queen Elizard who he then just as quickly betrayed.

If he had stuck around he would have met up with Touma and the others and if he had explained it to them Touma would have definitely tried to help in some way. Aliester could have probably found a way to bring her back with the help of Index and Fran who saw where she was made and the tools used to create her. Queen Elizard would have been in his debt and could have done something to research how to save Dion Fortune (considering the amount of bs and deus ex machina moments that have saved him so far he could have gotten away from Choronzon in some way), etc, etc. Hamazura had plenty of alternate ways to find help, but he jumped the gun and went with the quick and easy answer that appeared before him.

Like I said, his actions in this volume are not that different from those of past antagonists who were trying to do a good thing the wrong way out of desperation and in that desperation he was willing to let others die and suffer for the sake of achieving his goal.

Sure, he was trying to help someone and that is not a bad thing, but he knowingly went along with the villain who he knew was trying to destroy every human alive. If anything at this point Hamazura is more of an Anti Touma than Kamisato himself.
That seems a bit iffy. He did flee the British forces to secure something to negotiate with and then lured Coronzon to him in order to protect the queen. The moment he came fact-to-face with Coronzon, he had no chance of escaping.
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Old 2019-03-22, 22:25   Link #212
WiliamZ0
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Finally WILL play a part in this war. Magic God ? Screw you, you day as God is over now #1 will kick and teach you a REAL lesson with his faithful 'Qliphah Puzzle 545'

Also if I think about it, it make sense. What model Qliphah Puzzle 545 based on? It's Great Demon Coronzon herself.

The true 11 meaning is ‘the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds’!
I like it :3

Also BIG confirmation here, like WILL say 'the Misakas as a whole are on Team Kamijou-chan'
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Old 2019-03-22, 22:42   Link #213
Requiem-x
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... I don't even know how to feel about that part.

Anyways! Qli-chan is even more awesome now! And Will-tan finally appears again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiliamZ0 View Post
Also BIG confirmation here, like WILL say 'the Misakas as a whole are on Team Kamijou-chan'
When was this ever in doubt?
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Old 2019-03-22, 23:38   Link #214
Endscape
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Judging from this part, it sounds to me like the reason espers can't use magic is because the esper system wasn't created with the Sefirot or Qlipoth as a format, but Aleister's third tree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post
Anyways! Qli-chan is even more awesome now!
More and more, every time she shows up.

Quote:
When was this ever in doubt?
Never was, but if how Will feels about Touma is the expression of the enire Misaka Network, then this part illustrates what tey feel about Accelerator: they hate his crimes and can't really seperate that from how they view him, but they care about him too.
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Old 2019-03-23, 01:06   Link #215
Chosen_Hero
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That seems a bit iffy. He did flee the British forces to secure something to negotiate with and then lured Coronzon to him in order to protect the queen. The moment he came fact-to-face with Coronzon, he had no chance of escaping.
Like I said, he is so prone to bs and deus ex machina moments that if he had just said no to Choronzon he sould have been saved and have been able to escape easily (this volume alone proves that possiblity to be true).

All he had to do was wait and talk to the British forces and explain himself, but he didn't, the only reason why Takitsubo even ended up being questioned was due to Hamazura striking a deal with the demon hellbent on killing everyone. Had they waited just a bit longer they could have regrouped with Touma and Aliester.

As for Choronzon obtaining the items earlier, it 100% wouldn't have changed anything at all if Hamazura hadn't encountered her, especially considering that she needed a human sacrifice to use magic for the activation.

I personally think that this volume would have flowed better if another character had ended up in Hamazuras' place, someone like the female knight that keeps appearing would have been interesting to see in that position. Just think about it, Choronzon takes her hostage and through threats of killing everyone in Edinburgh castle forces her to help and she unwittingly does so to protect the royal family and everyone so they have a chance to fight back.

Doing this would have opened up more possibilities like learning more about the female knight (seriously, she doesn't even have a name yet) and we could see how loyal she is to the royal family and we could have also learned why they trust her to the extent of Carissa lending her her prize horse. It would also not have put Hamazura in a situation where his character is looking worse by the second and Dion would not only already be back but actively helping and getting to know Hamazura and the others while slowly integrating herself into their group and giving us a reason to actually care for her and her connection with Hamazura (seriously, at this point in the volume he has a better relationship with Choronzon than with Dion Fortune). Everything else in the volume could have happened pretty much almost the exact same way.

Am I saying I know better than Kamachi? No, but in my opinion this volume really hurt Hamazuras character which to be honest has been slipping ever since he stupidly fought Touma during the St. Germain (I forgot how to spell that damn name) volume (by far my least favorite NT volume, the only redeeming quality it had was it shed more light into Frendas' character).

By the way, I am not trying to convince anyone to think or view the volume the same way I do, you do you, all I am doing is pointing out the things that rubbed me the wrong way about the volume and defending my point of view. I actually do like this volume quite a lot, except for the Hamazura stuff which (in my opinion) could have been done better (at least up to the point where I have read so far).
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Old 2019-03-23, 02:23   Link #216
dniv
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Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post
Does "We'll figure it out what's going on when we get there!"really count as guidance? Well, it IS a very Touma AND Mikoto-like answer. Nevermind.





It's not so much the easy way or love as the belief no one else would go out of their way to help Dion, because that's a situation Shiage has been in before, and despite having it the best amongst the MCs (so far), he's fixated on the world not being nearly that kind (of course, that last part comes from us having the reader advantage, but you'd still think Shiage's outlook on life would be a bit brighter by now), or himself as utterly incapable of doing anything else. Of course, he still deserves to get his pathetic illusions shattered, though whether it is by Touma or Rikou is still up for debate.
Yeah, honestly he's just being like Touma so I can't really blame him too much. At the same time, I've just decided that it seems like he's just being selfish here. He's not a protagonist right now ... or he's a protagonist, but not a good guy. That being said, it's pretty interesting to see such a morally ambiguous protagonist lololol.

I sort of enjoy this tbh. It creates for more depth since this sort of thing happens in real life too after all so it's even somewhat realistic. In the end, the only person who really understands what's going through his mind is himself, but I guess he really wanted to save Fortune that badly and he saw her as someone else that he wanted to include in his group and he was willing to risk his life for that belief. In a way, I guess that's his new character and it's a complement to Touma's which is more save anyone even if they are unrelated to him and instead Hamazura only cares about saving the people close to or who are particularly important to him.

Rather than a good guy, he's more like a bug in the program, a crazy third party.

That being said, I want to see if he hadn't prepared something in advance. It's unclear if he hasn't prepared something yet.

Also, if I had to put it using Touma's past words, then Hamazura was just an enemy (or villain) this time.

Just caught up on parts 3-11 just now and gotta say they were great especially part 11... Accelerator is so OP right now, lol. Also, glad about getting to see more
Spoiler:


Am interested in seeing exactly what's been going on with her ever NT 9. Am really curious if everything related to Aleister's plans will ever end up going anywhere though he did make it seem like they'd complete themselves one way or another...
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Favorite Anime: Castle in the Sky (why is this so underrated ) Gankutsuou; Railgun S; Little Witch Academia (one of the most philosophically interesting/deep shows that I've seen, while also being the single most feel good of feel good shows that I have ever seen; literally the weirdest combination ever); Kill la Kill (because it saved anime )
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Old 2019-03-23, 12:59   Link #217
Chosen_Hero
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^He is NOT being like Touma, not even close and besides he has already stated that he wasn't going to be like Touma back during the St Germain volume.

Chapter 4:

Hamazuras' part ended on a very underwhelming note, not only was it just a lame copy of a Mugino fight (pretty convenient for him considering it is the only ability he knows how to fight) and what the hell did Aneri even help him with? She is on his phone, so how does that translate in being able to help in that situation? Did I miss something?

Dion Fortunes return in my opinion had literally no emotional weight to it at all. Maybe if we had been given more reason to care about her relationship with Hamazura and if it had been developed more than (at best) just a few minutes of talking, maybe then I would feel something but in my opinion it fell flat. Call me biased or whatever, but I just don't think there was enough development between them to justify his actions, but that is part the course for the Hamazura parts in this volume.

Of course once again things wrap up nicely for him, no permanent drawbacks from using magic, no fracture in his relationship due to his betrayal, no consequences at all for helping Choronzon (I might be jumping to conclusions on this one, but I expect nothing to come from it). Sure he is hurt, but he will just heal right back up with little to no change (unless his luck kicks in and he is now able to use magic just because... Wait doesn't Takitsubo still have that one item that let's espers use magic without any drawbacks?... Oh boy).

As for Accelerator, he fights Nepthys and becomes even more broken (power wise)... I mean, Misaka WILL appearing is cool and all but seeing an overpowered character get even more power isn't as exciting when it happens in this series where the best parts are the underdogs defeating and overcoming the powerful opponents. It's cool, just not as exciting as it would be in a different series.
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Old 2019-03-23, 13:41   Link #218
Requiem-x
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Of course once again things wrap up nicely for him, no permanent drawbacks from using magic, no fracture in his relationship due to his betrayal, no consequences at all for helping Choronzon (I might be jumping to conclusions on this one, but I expect nothing to come from it). Sure he is hurt, but he will just heal right back up with little to no change (unless his luck kicks in and he is now able to use magic just because... Wait doesn't Takitsubo still have that one item that let's espers use magic without any drawbacks?... Oh boy).
Nope. Fortune's mario kart prize box swallowed the ball, and it was stated anything put inside transforms into something completely different.

And of course Shiage is going to be super fine! He's luck man, after all! He even has a friend now whose power is literally random! And yes, I know Touma gets away with a ridiculous amount of stuff too, but something this just feels different, in a bad way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
As for Accelerator, he fights Nepthys and becomes even more broken (power wise)... I mean, Misaka WILL appearing is cool and all but seeing an overpowered character get even more power isn't as exciting when it happens in this series where the best parts are the underdogs defeating and overcoming the powerful opponents. It's cool, just not as exciting as it would be in a different series.
To be fair, I see that part as less about Accelerator fighting a god and more about Qli-chan making a breakthrough.
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Old 2019-03-23, 15:48   Link #219
dniv
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Originally Posted by Requiem-x View Post
Nope. Fortune's mario kart prize box swallowed the ball, and it was stated anything put inside transforms into something completely different.

And of course Shiage is going to be super fine! He's luck man, after all! He even has a friend now whose power is literally random! And yes, I know Touma gets away with a ridiculous amount of stuff too, but something this just feels different, in a bad way.



To be fair, I see that part as less about Accelerator fighting a god and more about Qli-chan making a breakthrough.
I see it as more as Accelerator stepping up to grow up. Like he's Aleister's main disciple sort of thing whether he wants to be or not since he can use both magic and science But idk.

About Hamazura, I'm just waiting for the rest of this chapter and next chapter. And @ChosenHero you are right that Hamazura has already said he's not going to be Touma, but what I meant is that in a way his attitude is similar yet different. I'm just waiting for the rest of chapter 4 and for the epilogue.

At this point, I'm just curious what the hell Kamachi has been trying to do with Hamazura's character in this volume which is why I'm waiting until the end of the epilogue before I try to make any judgments.
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Favorite Series: 0. To aru Series & Legend of heroes: trails sub-series. 1. Ze Tian Ji 2. Reincarnator
3. The King's Avatar/ Mushoku Tensei/ Legendary Moonlight Sculptor 4. Martial World/ Great Teacher Onizuka 5. KnB/KLK/Detective Conan/ Clannad AF/Bakuman

Favorite Game Series: #0 The legend of heroes (everything but especially ZERO/AO) #1 Zero escape series. #2 Persona series. #3 Pokemon. #4 Bravely Default series. ; #5 Ace Attorney (including the spin-offs); #6 Legend of Zelda. #7 Dragon Quest (including the spin-offs)

Favorite Anime: Castle in the Sky (why is this so underrated ) Gankutsuou; Railgun S; Little Witch Academia (one of the most philosophically interesting/deep shows that I've seen, while also being the single most feel good of feel good shows that I have ever seen; literally the weirdest combination ever); Kill la Kill (because it saved anime )
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Old 2019-03-23, 20:18   Link #220
shmaster
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A little surprising that nobody sees the message between the Hamazura/Choronzon relationship.
Hamazura did not crash and burn already like Meythers and Aleister in his pack with the demon already speaks thousand.

The magicians failed in their dealing with the demon because they try to fight the consequences. But Hamazura, simply, just give up. It his total surrender to fight and honoring the pact as a fair trade that ultimately lead to the fulfillment of his wish.
Hell, it this attitude of his that even made his relationship with the demon mutual. He returning Choronzo's action with words of kindness is also the only occasion which the demon faltered mentally.

I am pretty sure the more advanced Thelemites in this board can put it better than I do when you see this in Thelema perspective.

Looks outside the lens of the polarity of evil and good. This is not what Hamazura's arc is about.
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