Attack on Titan - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[blakstealth]

Originally Posted by takai

Like I said, in episode 1 it showed us how strong, terrifying, and practically unbeatable these things are. It showed, you can kick and scream all you want, but this is reality.

But it sounds like to me you came into this with the mindset of Eren and the rest of them not even remotely making a dent when they fight the titans? Through all that build up from the past 3 episodes, you really came into this episode thinking that? I find that hard to believe. If you're not disappointed after watching this, then I doubt you've been paying attention to the last few episodes.

I didn't have any expectations for this episode, really. Of course I'm disappointed to see that Eren and co. have failed despite everything they've done to reach this point, but not the kind of disappointment that would hinder my enjoyment of the series. I think I like the show even more now because of this unexpected outcome. I guess you can say that the show strayed from the norm, in your case, and let its main protagonist get defeated so early in the game.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

A hail of arrows wouldn't do jack shit against titans, as long there isn't substancial damage dealt to that specific weak point.

Velocity and penetration issue nonewithstanding, you also have to think about the extent of damage that an arrow would deal to the target: whereas humans are frail, titans would just charge in there, regardless of the wounds they got unless the damage dealt to their neck is sufficient.
And as proved in this episode, even canons pulverising heads aren't enough, and that's counting obvious collateral damage dealt on the neck at the same time.

As such, the only way to destroy a titan would be a very deep and large attack dealt on their neck, which is not feasible with arrows, technically speaking.
Killing a target with a bow assume that skewing them with thin arrows would be enough. That means the only part that matter by wielding a bow is your accuracy, which isn't that of a big deal as long you hit the target.
In titans case, you need much more precision (as you cannot hit anywhere except one single point), as well as power in the equation.

That was my point. The titan walks in the hole, the archers are behind him shooting his neck. If the giants are intelligent, they would just protect their neck with their arms at all times. But we are told they are not intelligent and thus they won't be blocking their weak spot or turn around. They are practically targets as soon as they show up pass the hole. My entire argument so far is shooting the neck, not just shooting. The neck of a slow moving giant is a pretty easy target to hit: it's large, it's moving at predicable path and speed, and we just need to send lots of arrow there and even if most miss, 100 out of 1000 get through and it should inflict far more dmg then melee swings. I mean if a hunter can hit a bird a couple hundred feet in the air, a bow man riding a horse can hit a human size target on the move on horse back, why would there be worse issue hitting a much larger, slower, and predicable target?

[Grey]

Whoa. Those jumping titans are scary. Normally they're like giant zombies--you expect them to move slowly. But then one of them suddenly starts running. Aaaaaaaaaagh.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by takai

So last episode cliff-hangs on what could an unbelievably epic episode, but instead half of the episode is talking, then the rest is them getting their asses kicked? Talk about an extreme disappointment. The fact that they literally got smacked around like flies is what gets me. All the build up, the "this is our counter-attack", and everything else, yet all we see is them getting spanked up and down. Completely anti-climactic and momentum killing.

And Eren loses a leg and an arm? Are you kidding? I'm facepalming so hard. We all know he isn't dead, so something is going to happen. And it seems that next episode is nothing but flashbacks. So we'll most likely have to wait 2 weeks to see what happens.

You better step it up Titan, you're losing points fast. 5/10

You've been watching too much Shounen.

Guts and determination alone can't beat these Titans. Surely you see that. This isn't Busou Renkin, Naruto, DBZ, etc.

I did not expect the MC to lose a leg and an arm, and get eaten. I knew the squad was going to get their butts kicked but not quite that badly. I was more expecting them to make a temporary retreat and re-group with other squads.

[aohige]

Titans are not slow walking targets.
They LOOK slow because of their size.

But exactly because of their size, the actual speed in which the object is moving in mph, is fast, even if the titan is making a slow stroll.

Asking archers to strike a target moving at 20mph+ a hundred times in a specific area is not realistic. Period.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Not only that they are very mobile for their size.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

That was my point. The titan walks in the hole, the archers are behind him shooting his neck. If the giants are intelligent, they would just protect their neck with their arms at all times. But we are told they are not intelligent and thus they won't be blocking their weak spot or turn around. They are practically targets as soon as they show up pass the hole. My entire argument so far is shooting the neck, not just shooting. The neck of a slow moving giant is a pretty easy target to hit: it's large, it's moving at predicable path and speed, and we just need to send lots of arrow there and even if most miss, 100 out of 1000 get through and it should inflict far more dmg then melee swings. I mean if a hunter can hit a bird a couple hundred feet in the air, a bow man riding a horse can hit a human size target on the move on horse back, why would there be worse issue hitting a much larger, slower, and predicable target?

the bird won't eat you >> so you can have your time to aim at them
( cannon >> arrow yet the failed...)

[AvianWing]

Why is there even a debate about the efficacy of weaponry in an anime? Melee weapons, especially swords, will always be more effective than range weapons. People will move with 15g acceleration without ever so much batting an eye. The law of physics be damned. The grappling hook thing runs on gasoline. The cannons are using gunpowder based. Technologies from different centuries.

How accurate would the grappling hooks have to be for them to be swinging through the city like Tarzan? How much power would they have to have to latch on a stone wall? They can probably shoot from the front of the neck and pierce through enough flesh to get to the back. But that just won't be fun at all.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

You make it sound like all the manga readers have made it their goal to spoil the anime viewers...

Careless or not, the end result is the same: spoiling the fun for people who use only the anime as their reference.

Originally Posted by Randrak42

As far as I am aware this is the thread to discuss the anime episode and making a comparison of certain scenes and the manga ones as well as their personal opinion on them IS also part of an episode's discussion, it's as part of the discussion as an anime-only viewer saying "This was a good scene, I liked this scene."

No, I don't accept that as a good reason. Imagine if this were an anime-original series, with no literary source material to speak of. The focus would then be entirely on how the anime was presented, whether it worked for the viewer or not. Whatever a viewer's reason, it comes directly from how he or she perceived events as they were presented in the anime.

That is the way as it should be. A viewer shouldn't have to refer to a manga or light novel to understand events as they were portrayed in the anime. Manga readers who refuse to accept this distinction, and who persist on grumbling how the anime doesn't compare well with the manga, are in effect ruining the fun for themselves. Worse, they also risk spoiling the fun for anime-only viewers, because such points tend to lead to more spoiler-filled retorts from other manga readers.

My point, as I've repeated often before, is to stop comparing. Enjoy (or don't) the anime for what it is, and not how it compares with the manga you read. Treat them as two separate continuities. We've just gone through several pages of discussion without having to refer to the manga, so I don't see why that is not possible at all.

In any case, all this is moot, given the rules of the sub-forum. Nor do I wish to harp further on this point and risk sounding like a broken record.

=====

Meanwhile, as for the idea of archery, I don't see why it's necessarily bad. In many ways, the use of the 3DMG is somewhat contrived. It's there for the sake of kinetically charged drama and not necessarily for real-life practicality.

Explosive-tipped arrows could cause devastating damage to the nape of the titans' necks, especially if the titans were toppled by attacking their feet or ankles first. Technology may be predominantly pre-industrial, but the humans do appear to have an understanding of steam power and jet propulsion, so it may not be too far a stretch for them to develop explosives powerful enough to do the job. And, as mentioned, well-trained archers are probably capable enough to deliver precision shots. More importantly, they'd be able to deliver the payload at a rate of fire that can match a titan's velocity — faster, at least, than slow-loading cannons, muskets or crossbows.

Why then isn't archery a tactic of choice? Let's just accept that it never crossed the military's mind. (More to the point, it probably didn't cross the author's mind, but that would be breaking the fourth wall.)

[SagaraSouske]

Cannon does not >> arrow since you not firing at their neck. And titan can't do anything to you either when you are outside their range and above them. That was why the wall kept them out.

May be if they run, they are moving at 20mph. It sure does not look like they are moving at that speed walking in the episodes we see. But let's say they are, 20 mph big targets with predicable path is still easy to hit. Both birds and horse riding are much faster. You are telling me that when you have thousands of archer on the wall high up, they cannot fire and hit the giants walking into Wall Maria in a single file through the hole? That at least 10% of the arrows will hit? Even someone practice archery in this modern day and age can do way better then that. You need to calculate speed, distance, flight time and such for moving targets, but that's part of the skill set.

[HandofFate]

Even with 100% accuracy, I don't see an arrow being strong enough to pierce the giant's skin and actually do enough damage to neutralize them. Be just throwing toothpicks at them. Even with primitive gunpowder explosive arrows.

Rather than just cutting, from the practice and instances shown, they're using the twin swords to remove the part entirely rather than just doing slashing damage.

Why they don't do all these 100 random suggestions people think up of? Rather than it not coming to mind, I find the reasoning is that they did try it, and it failed miserably.

[frodonk]

you need to cut the neck open, inflict a large enough wound to hinder the titan's regen powers, using a weapon that can penetrate deep into the skin. basically, arrows can't do that, even thousands of them at one spot. compare the wounds done by pricking your finger with a needle many times to a wound made by cutting open part of your finger, which takes longer to heal?

I'm more interested in how the colossal titan disappeared, which means that the teleport theory might actually have some merit.

also, once again, its been shown that there had been no change in the evacuation plan of the outer towns for 5 years. ugh, the argument that they have been complacent and that they felt safe inside the wall, or that the inner area people don't care about them isn't enough to explain their lack of preparation.

also, you can't tell me that titans are dumb and that they only run on instinct. knowing the precise time to jump and bite when food is moving towards you at high speeds so that you could eat it all or take bits of it off requires a certain degree of intelligence.

[Kinku]

wouldnt be easier and faster to use ballista than the cannon. I would think it would be easier to aim and faster to reload than cannon.

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Careless or not, the end result is the same: spoiling the fun for people who use only the anime as their reference.

Again, you're painting it like the manga readers are either maliciously posting spoilers or doing so because they are too stupid to realize what they are doing.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

No, I don't accept that as a good reason. Imagine if this were an anime-original series, with no literary source material to speak of. The focus would then be entirely on how the anime was presented, whether it worked for the viewer or not. Whatever a viewer's reason, it comes directly from how he or she perceived events as they were presented in the anime.

But here's the problem with that...this IS an anime based on a manga and thus discussions and views of it will be approached and made differently.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That is the way as it should be. A viewer shouldn't have to refer to a manga or light novel to understand events as they were portrayed in the anime. Manga readers who refuse to accept this distinction, and who persist on grumbling how the anime doesn't compare well with the manga, are in effect ruining the fun for themselves. Worse, they also risk spoiling the fun for anime-only viewers, because such points tend to lead to more spoiler-filled retorts from other manga readers.

That is the way YOU think it should be, others disagree with you on this and there are no rules stating what topics we can or cannot discuss as long as we talk about the episode (which making comparisons IS talking about the episode) and don't post spoilers (which I have yet to see when making comparisons).

Not to mention that not all comparisons have been bad, some have praised what the anime has added or removed. I for one praise the addition of the scene with Pixis which is entirely original to the anime.

Manga to Anime comparisons can be both negative and positive.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

My point, as I've repeated often before, is to stop comparing. Enjoy (or don't) the anime for what it is, and not how it compares with the manga you read. Treat them as two separate continuities. We've just gone through several pages of discussion without having to refer to the manga, so I don't see why that is not possible at all.

If you want to treat it or any other series as two or more separate continuities then that is fine. However some people actually enjoy seeing the differences between the source and the adaptation and telling others that they can't or shouldn't do it because you don't like it is basically telling others how they should enjoy the anime, which you have no right to do.

This is a discussion forum, we are free to discuss everything as long as we are within the rules...and you are free to read our posts or not as you see fit.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

In any case, all this is moot, given the rules of the sub-forum. Nor do I wish to harp further on this point and risk sounding like a broken record.

And the rules DO NOT say that we CANNOT make comparisons. I'm sorry if you don't find comparison discussions enjoyable but hey, like the saying from my country goes, you can't please both Greek and Trojans. I'm not really entertained or interested by this Archery discussion they are currently have but you don't see me complaining...I simply ignore it and don't read the posts about it while letting others continue the discussion that they find interesting.

This is the last I'll be posting of this matter as well, as we are starting to get off-topic.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by frodonk

I'm more interested in how the colossal titan disappeared, which means that the teleport theory might actually have some merit.

It gets me to thinking about what Titans are actually made of. They're super-heated, regenerate aside from a weak point that anatomically doesn't make sense (head can be blown off and regenerate, but if the cervical spine is cut into then they die?), and seemingly don't need to eat to sustain themselves. We also don't know where they come from (how they reproduce).

In Greek mythology weren't the Titans made up of different elements, or at least, they represented different features of the world? All of the Titans that we've seen thus far have been fairly similar in their form and only had slight differences in capabilities, but what if they're similar to the Greek concept?

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Again, you're painting it like the manga readers are either maliciously posting spoilers or doing so because they are too stupid to realize what they are doing.

People get excited and forget - you don't need to be malicious or stupid to let things slip.

Originally Posted by Randrak42

That is the way YOU think it should be, others disagree with you on this and there are no rules stating what topics we can or cannot discuss as long as we talk about the episode (which making comparisons IS talking about the episode) and don't post spoilers (which I have yet to see when making comparisons).

When you know some information that others don't, what you consider to be a spoiler may be very different from what someone without the information would consider to be a spoiler. If you want to make comparisons why not do it in the manga thread? At least you know that everyone there is reading the manga. Many anime viewers do not follow the manga, and spoilers of any form cause people to stop participating in discussions.

[SagaraSouske]

I don't know if people don't read the posts or just skim past them. I will format it in an fashion that is easier to read:

1. Arrow cannot penetrate neck skin.
Arrows have far more penetration power then swinging a blade. If a blade can cut it, arrows can penetrate it. Long bow arrows are used to penetrate plate armor in the 14th and 15th century.

2. Not enough damage from arrows.
Lots of arrows hitting giant neck will do more damage then cuts. Explosive arrows will blow the entire area into pieces.

3. Giant's neck is hard to hit because it is moving.
It's far easier to hit a big area on a big dumb target that is moving at a constant speed in a predicable fashion. If an archer can hit a bird flying, he or she can hit a large patch of skin on the giant's neck that is moving far slower.

4. Neck will regenerate as well.
Well with arrows, especially explosive ones, you do far more damage, far faster then getting close and cut with swords, even if you are spinning to slice pieces off, and also with zero risk of you being picked off before you even get the cut in, just like Eren's squad.

The only reason why the author isn't having the humans using archers is because either he didn't think it through himself or force plot into a certain direction, in which case he should have given better reasoning why bows don't work against giants. What we know so far from these first episodes does not give sufficient cause to favor melee combat over range combat, especially at the horrible exchange rate for a kill.

[frubam]

Holy S***!!! I guess even shounen protagonist plot armor can't protect you in a story like this D0=. What I really feel bad for, or rather who, is Mikasa. She loves the guy(whether romantically or as a sibling), so I can't even imagine what she'll do once she finds out he's dead =0(.

The skirmish with the Colossal Titan looked as good as I hoped it would. It kinda sucked that he nearly managed to get to it(not gonna say 'kill', cause it was pretty big), but it vanished on him. Though he did rather well then, I was kinda disappointed he got injured so quickly on his second(and last) titan battle, despite being so cocky just before it. I could really feel the pain when he lost his leg too .

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

When you know some information that others don't, what you consider to be a spoiler may be very different from what someone without the information would consider to be a spoiler. If you want to make comparisons why not do it in the manga thread? At least you know that everyone there is reading the manga. Many anime viewers do not follow the manga, and spoilers of any form cause people to stop participating in discussions.

Yeah, I put a lot of my comments in the manga or spoilers thread. It can be very easy to figure out spoilers from manga readers' posts. They don't even need to drop hints on purpose or post clear spoilers to give things away.

[Micromancer]

for anime watchers :

Spoiler:

go read the manga , worth it

anyway, don't really like this episode's cut-off since it left the hint that somehow eren's gonna survive as he's one of the main chara

[Kinku]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I don't know if people don't read the posts or just skim past them. I will format it in an fashion that is easier to read:

1. Arrow cannot penetrate neck skin.
Arrows have far more penetration power then swinging a blade. If a blade can cut it, arrows can penetrate it. Long bow arrows are used to penetrate plate armor in the 14th and 15th century.

2. Not enough damage from arrows.
Lots of arrows hitting giant neck will do more damage then cuts. Explosive arrows will blow the entire area into pieces.

3. Giant's neck is hard to hit because it is moving.
It's far easier to hit a big area on a big dumb target that is moving at a constant speed in a predicable fashion. If an archer can hit a bird flying, he or she can hit a large patch of skin on the giant's neck that is moving far slower.

4. Neck will regenerate as well.
Well with arrows, especially explosive ones, you do far more damage, far faster then getting close and cut with swords, even if you are spinning to slice pieces off, and also with zero risk of you being picked off before you even get the cut in, just like Eren's squad.

The only reason why the author isn't having the humans using archers is because either he didn't think it through himself or force plot into a certain direction, in which case he should have given better reasoning why bows don't work against giants. What we know so far from these first episodes does not give sufficient cause to favor melee combat over range combat, especially at the horrible exchange rate for a kill.

http://www.medieval-castle-siege-wea.../ballista.html

would that be useful ?