2008-08-15, 07:45 | Link #1 |
Just call me Ojisan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: U.K. Hampshire
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FUNimation sends C&D notice
Some of you may have noticed that a number of series have been removed from AnimeSuki, the reason is because FUNimation Entertainment have requested the torrents from the following 6 series to be removed from the main site.
On behalf of d-rights Bamboo BladeOn behalf of Enoki Films Slayers RevolutionPlease note that FUNimation are acting on the behalf of the Japanese IP owners d-rights and Enoki Films. At this point in time there is no indication that any of the series have been licensed. The existing discussion threads will remain in the Fansubbed forum as before, the only real change is that we will no longer list torrents. The request we received targets these specific shows, not all the d-rights and Enoki Films anime series. I understand that at least one fansub group has also received a similar C&D request and therefore have halted fansubbing of the appropriate series. As usual, can we please avoid any "I don't care because xxx sucked anyway" or for that matter "I hope xxx is licensed so I can purchase the DVDs". This thread isn't meant to be a wishlist of what gets licensed or not. |
2008-08-17, 03:11 | Link #2 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Observing the overall range of activities that Funimation is engaging in this year .... it does make this development rather interesting (?alarming?).
It always seems rather strange to me when a company wants to shut down what is essentially "buzz" about their product in regions that they have seem to have no intention of ever selling their product. So it goes....
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2008-08-17, 03:29 | Link #3 |
Just call me Ojisan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: U.K. Hampshire
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I don't see why Funimation get the "blame" over this. They have been employed by the Japanese rights holder to send the C&Ds, it's not as if they could turn around to d-rights or Enoki and say "we don't agree with this".
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2008-08-17, 08:34 | Link #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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While companies certainly have the right to enforce their copyrights, I don't see how this is a good move. Given that this is the first Slayers series in 10 years, and is an original story being animated by a different company*, new viewers have no idea what the show is about, and experienced fans do not know how good the quality is compared to the older series. Sending out C&D before the story even takes off kills the free advertising, and will likely prevent Revolution from being some kind of revival of the Slayers franchise, outside of Japan at least.
* different company as in, while JC Staff produced the OVAs and movies, they were not in charge of primary production on the earlier series, though they did do work. |
2008-08-17, 10:16 | Link #5 |
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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I also 2nd Ojisan's thought. Please leave out the nonsense about how much Funi sucks and all that other nonsense that follows with it if you choose to post your thought in the thread. We will end up cleaning up the garbage anyway, but you will save us some work by being reasonable.
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2008-08-17, 14:09 | Link #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Lawrenceville, GA
Age: 43
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I wonder why would Japanese co. have to go through Funimation, but not Bandai Entertainment, ADV Films, and the Right Stuf if they don't want their series fansubbed? Too bad we'll have to wait two years for Revolution to be licensed.
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2008-08-17, 14:35 | Link #7 |
Rare Spawn
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Belgium, land of the waffle
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I'm surprised this isn't getting more discussion.
As far as I see, if the C&D notices start coming for more and more series, and the DMCA complaints for certain torrents will keep on going, we're going to be heading for a total turnaround. My guess would be : *Groups will be subbing without websites/direct contacts. Can't C&D anyone if you don't know who they are. *Content will move away from P2P and back to IRC and/or usenet, can't send a DMCA complaint if you don't upload/share the content. Either way, alienating the existing userbase into just dropping and not buying the series they can't preview/see, or even angering a userbase that will purposely revolt. If you draw a line to animesuki, it will end the website in it's current form, as I am sure the hosting provider won't be happy dealing with multiple DMCA/C&D requests for hundreds of shows listed, or is this a thought that is too farfetched? Then again we have the question, why do the Japanese care outside of their "target" userbase, IE Japan, as these C&D complaints stem from the makers... I see interesting times ahead... |
2008-08-17, 14:41 | Link #8 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
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As for creating new fans, the copyright holders are only interested in people who pay for DVDs, not those who just watch for free. A non-paying fan means nothing to the business. That they're gouging fans with DVD sales is a silly claim since overseas distribution revolves around selling that product. Quote:
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2008-08-17, 15:04 | Link #9 |
Florsheim Monster
Fansubber
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
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Ever since Umai received the first C&D of this type for Romeo x Juliet (which Funi went on to finally license at least six months later if not longer), I've always wondered about the legal aspects of this union between Funi and the Japanese companies. I mean, not that I'm saying that they don't have the right to, but it's surely a big red tape area for one company to take on the responsibilities of the legal interests of another company - and how would legal proceedings even work on that? I'd actually be vaguely interested to know if anyone knows the answer to the specific relationship Funi has with these companies.
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2008-08-17, 16:03 | Link #10 | |
…Nothing More
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Age: 44
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In this case, the Japanese companies just asked FUNimation to "monitor and take action against unauthorized distribution of [the] titles". They agreed because they "believe [it] will benefit the industry". In other words, both parties see an advantage in having FUNimation do the monitoring and chasing, even if it costs FUNimation time and money. They wouldn't do it if they didn't see a business advantage in it... Also, just to make the situation clear: the "C&D" (a term used colloquially here) was basically them notifying us of the situation informally, based on the aforementioned agreement. It was not a DMCA notice or other formal legal request. We removed the listing because we're not stupid, we realise it was a "hint" that we should take the links down. |
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2008-08-17, 16:28 | Link #11 |
Hopeless Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On bended knee asking Belldandy to marry me
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I just watched the video of the Anime Expo 2008 panel, with industry reps, that was pointed to in a topic in the Fansub Groups area. It's almost an hour long, but I thought it was worth watching.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/conv...death-of-anime Funimation's Lance Heiskell spends quite a bit of time explaining their position on the matter. He mentions a "Three pronged approach" which is: -Education about piracy -Providing a legal alternative -Enforcement It sounds like they're getting serious about the enforcement end of things. I'm not sure what to think. There's no way I can ever buy "legal alternatives" of all the fansubs I've watched, but at the same time, I've spent more money on anime than I ever would have without watching fansubs first. The way things are looking, I think I'll start stocking up on all those series I haven't got around too yet... before things get worse.
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2008-08-17, 16:59 | Link #12 | |
Waiting for more taiyuki!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Plus FUNimation probably will eventually get those titles. Isn't that the usual outcome of the FUNi C&D? The ink prob isn't dried yet on those contracts.
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2008-08-17, 21:15 | Link #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
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It makes sense, even though animesuki doesn't actually have the trackers, it has a large userbase and can get the message out to people quickly that the companies they represent want a stop on subbing/distrobution for series x. In some cases, it's probably easier to distrobute the information this way than it is to actually track down all the fansub groups.
If this starts to become somewhat more regular, maybe we should look at making a thread like the Licenses announcement thread that we can subscribe to to keep up to date on new C&Ds.
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Last edited by jpwong; 2008-08-17 at 22:46. |
2008-08-17, 22:00 | Link #15 |
The Victorian
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I don't think Funimation is to blame. Nothing in their actions suggest anything aggressive or tyrannical and because they have good relationships with the likes of AS (or at least I presume they do) that they know that going softly softly is in the best interests of everyone.
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2008-08-17, 23:58 | Link #16 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Just to clarify, I wasn't blaming Funimation as such - more like I'm wondering what the rights owners have in mind for their titles.
The main risk with companies putting out C&Ds? People like me who buy DVD sets. Before I discovered fansubs - my purchase average per year was about ZERO dollars, maybe some item once or twice a year. With fansubs, I buy between $1500-$3500 per year in DVDs, figures, CDs. Guess where my average moves if I'm unable to preview the product? They need to provide an equivalent process if they want my money. And no, realtime streaming crud isn't "equivalent". Then there's the issue of product that will never see Region 1 because its too niche. I just hope Funimation and their japanese partners consider this ripple in their calculations.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2008-08-18 at 00:21. |
2008-08-18, 04:18 | Link #17 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I can literally SEE how things like this come to pass. CEO notes that DVD sales are dropping and demands action. The famous three points "education, legal alternative and enforcement" look so good on Powerpoint, and "three-pronged approach" is a real beauty. Also, routing rights to only ONE qualified person sending out C&Ds looks so smart and efficient.
What's not to love, hm? If this example turns out to be "successful" and is adapted for more animation studios, this is what is _really_ going to happen: 1) It will force fansub groups into anonymity. Some "name" groups will fade and not release anything anymore (which the industry may even hail as "success"), but strangely the number of "new" groups without websites or IRC channels will increase. Oh, and expect their quality to rise significantly, since many of the formerly "name" fansubbers will be behind them. 2) Finally anonymous and furious about their forced exitus from the "official" days, many subbers will feel no qualms anymore to break several "inofficial" mostly honored rules: Like, not making quality rereleases from DVD or soon BluRay sources. This will make it even harder for the anime studios to come up with products of a quality which warrants the price gap compared to subs/rips. Especially looking at the outlandish pricing of the first BluRay releases. Right now, most "name" groups stay away from them in order not to incense the industry too much. This would change. 3) The anime community and hence the market will shrink with the exitus of the "name" groups. Less channels, websites and forums means less crystallization points, and less socializing. Downloading anonymous black-label subs via torrent is less engaging and energizing, and the number of casual anime viewers we have now will leave the anime market and take their money elsewhere. 4) The number of "niche" animes warranting a licence outside of Japan will continue to shrink. Without fansubs to spread the word and to establish a fanbase and viewership, many less-known shows will simply have no chance anymore. And without download numbers, for example R1 labels will have fewer empirical data to assess the commercial chances of a potential release anymore. Basically, what it boils down to is that the anime studios have the option either to try to include the fansub world in an effort to cooperate, or they can try to shut them down and out. The C&D way is the latter approach. And it's not really rocket science to predict 1-4. Not everything looking good on Powerpoint will actually have the intended effect in the real world. Example: Remember when the anime industry was going after raw cappers on Share/Winny in an attempt to dry out the well? What really happened was the opposite: Since good encoding raws got scarce on Japanese P2P, many name groups cooperated and now use Transport Stream based video, captured and distributed (now exclusively on private channels) by cooperating cappers. Result: The quality of the encodes improved significantly since, further eroding the need to purchase DVDs (since quality TS encodes are usually superior to DVDs). I'll try to outline a (in my opinion) more reasonable approach embracing the fansub world rather than criminalizing them in a later thread. But for now, I can only say that in my opinion, not much thought went into this C&D-via-Rights-of-Attourney trick. IMHO it's a dangerous step in the wrong direction. |
2008-08-18, 06:37 | Link #19 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Quote:
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2008-08-18, 06:53 | Link #20 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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Right, I'm not saying I expect them to actually provide us with a legal Day 0 or even Day 14 release (as FUNimation's rep said on that fansub and industry panel), but if such a thing were to happen, all they need is an established online distribution platform, like a streaming site such as Crunchyroll. Considering BitTorrent and high-quality files aren't as widely used anymore as their streaming equivalents, I don't see how much of a paradigm shift would there need to be. Most folks (the streaming crowd) would just need to go to a different streaming site. And at least a portion of hardcore fans who download via BT/IRC wouldn't wait for rips to appear.
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