Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[itanshi1]

Well in the case of Nanoha, the drones are not putting people out of work.

[Justin_Brett]

From an in-universe perspective, it certainly makes sense, so long as they can be operated by D, C and B guys. Can't say I'm happy about the prospect of more technology instead of magic, though.

[Mirron]

And there's still the cost to make and maintain these drones to take into account. Certainly nice for some of the less combat capable people, like... I don't know, Shari? But none the less, I think they'll still rely heavily on the mages. This is just going to get particular attention here since it's a heavy anti-magic situation.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

From an in-universe perspective, it certainly makes sense, so long as they can be operated by D, C and B guys. Can't say I'm happy about the prospect of more technology instead of magic, though.

Their 'magic' was always technology, though.

[Mirron]

I'd say magic is still something that exists without any technology. As Yuuno and others show, you can perform magic without any devices. It's more like... I don't know, Ar Tonelico? Magic exists, but technology makes it way, way better.

[Justin_Brett]

No, their magic was advanced enough to skew the line between it and technology.

Now it's just technology. There's no balance.

[itanshi1]

Well, I'm very happy with developments, still not messing up my notes.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

No, their magic was advanced enough to skew the line between it and technology.

Now it's just technology. There's no balance.

To put thing into perspective, at the start of the series it was Magic aided by Technology, now has become technology aided by magic. The AEC-equips are the epytome of that by reducing magic to a mere "battery fuel".

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Mirron

I'd say magic is still something that exists without any technology. As Yuuno and others show, you can perform magic without any devices. It's more like... I don't know, Ar Tonelico? Magic exists, but technology makes it way, way better.

Mana exists as an energy in the environment and mages can manipulate it via a special organ. There's nothing particularly mystical about it.

[Justin_Brett]

Regardless, the whole point about Nanoha's setting is that it intertwines magic and tech. As soon as you put one over the other, you've kinda missed the appeal of a lot of the series.

[00-Raiser]

I still maintain that this 'magic' is just another name for the tech. In universe this magic is perfectly explained scientifically therefore there is nothing magical about it. Magic by definition is supernatural.

All the new tech still runs off magic and are really no different from devices so there's actually no change from earlier seasons. It just appears to be more prominent because it has a whole sub title devoted to them. If there was a feature focusing on the different spells no one would be saying anything about how the tech is fazing out the magic.

[Kuroi Hadou]

"Technology" is just a fancy name for "tool", which is defined as "an implement for facilitating or implementing operations". All magic is technology, really.

[Justin_Brett]

All the new tech still runs off magic and are really no different from devices

They are completely different. Why do you think people don't want them in the story?

And yeah, I'm sure showing off the spells the protagonists COULD be using but aren't would solve this perfectly.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Mana exists as an energy in the environment and mages can manipulate it via a special organ. There's nothing particularly mystical about it.

An "ethereal" organ i must say.

The AEC do have some significant differences with the devices, Magic is indeed a type of energy(this is true for any fictional setting, from Harry Potter to Negima to Nanoha) but before said energy was spawned a lot of different uses and styles, each with their own type of casting, rules and effects, some mages make a more spiritual approach to Magic(Caro, Yuuno, probably Einhart and the Witch loli from ViVid) while others have a more technical approach(Nano0ha, Fate, Precia, Subaru and nearly any Modern Belka or Mid-style practicioner) but still casting spells and using the devices only as a support for their own powers and styles. The AEC go to the opposite extreme, this new equipement(not even refered as a "device") don't function as a support to magic, instead it replaces all spellcasting, concentration and such and reduces magic to an energy sopurce to charge their batteries and allow mages to do non-magical attacks powered by magic(as paradoxical as it sounds).

Isis is an interesting example, she uses an armor and Device with alternate energy resources but they still serve only asupport role to her magic spells that use non-magical chemics to achieve various effects, it's the same as of a sorcerer fighting with flying physical daggers enchanted by magic, the daggers themselves are just there a tool while all the trayectory and movement is made by magic.

Hope Section Six learns from her and Fate(Bardiche along with Perfume Grab and Sword breaker are the only weapons able to do a decent job during the battle) that the AEC-styled "Semi-real weapon using magic-fueled batteries" isn't an effective approach for flesh and blood mages(Sword Breaker's secret for it's successfulness resides on the fact that rather than just using magic as fuel, it's directly powered by chanelling the force of Subaru's own special ability "Oscillating Breaker/Vibration Shatter"). As Fate and Isis shows up is better to stick to their original styles with Upgraded/Alternate devices.

[Rising Dragon]

Aki, are you trying to say ethereal or eternal? Either way, you're doing it wrong.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Aki, are you trying to say ethereal or eternal? Either way, you're doing it wrong.

I was trying to say "ethereal", thanks xD!

[Tiresias]

Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a confusion over the term "Technology" and "Science" here...

I thought "technology" is used to describe the making, usage, or knowledge about tools you aren't born with, like sticks, pliers, etc? Or do you call your punches and slaps technology as well? Mages in the setting are born with magic.

Oh what the heck, it's not even my mother language. Who am I to argue with native speakers regarding their words and stuff....

right, let's put it another way. Let's say that maybe magic is just another tool, just like machines. The problem is that the current proportion of skill allocation given regarding magic and machines (devices and stuff) differs far too much from the Nanoha we had known for long.

Back at TOS, A's and even StrikerS, a mage's primary tool is magic. The mastery of magic is far more important than the mastery of devices, since you can do neat stuff with magic without devices. Yet in Force, the reverse it's true. Your most needed skill is weapons-handling, not magic casting. Proof? Nanoha didn't even use either offensive spells, binds, or barriers - she only uses flight and (probably) telepathy.

Long story short, if before individual skills are 70% magic, 30% machines, in Force it's 30-70 instead.

On an other note, I've been having more overthinking about this series (seems to happen with alarming frequency these days...) and this occurs to me: they did it too extreme. In StrikerS Anti-Magic were too weak for the heroes, and in Force they are too strong.

[Justin_Brett]

^ Yeah, exactly. It's all just too much in one direction: too dark, too much power for the villains, too much gratuitous mecha lip service...they went too far in a lot of ways.

Maybe they'll subvert it later on with 'no, magic is awesome', though, you never know.

[Mirron]

I still think it's magic, and it still exists. Not like it's anymore explained than any other magical series, it's just more structured. Which, in and of itself, doesn't mean it isn't magic.

[Arcc]

You know, when I first poked my face around this place some four years ago, one of the more memorable things I picked up from ye who were around back then was Larry Niven's corollary to Arthur C. Clarke's third law. Which is to say, "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

For me that concept has since been rather fundamental to understanding the nature of the Nanohaverse's technology curve, and I don't think it's changed that much since since StrikerS. You can invent the wheel, but you can also adapt magic to do everything a wheel does. Magic becomes technology when you use it for everyday functions.