Canvas 2 ~Niji-iro no Sketch~

[npal]

You know, someone pointed out that even 1st cousin marriage is legal in some countries

@rooboy666 I wouldn't throw everything out. I could use the whole Kaede arc, but since Sia didn't doublecross Kaede, the arc conclusion would be much smoother and believable. Sia is a far better character than Asa and I'd make sure she didn't go OOC. Well, I would've maked sure Asa didn't go OOC. I'd mix Asa's arc with Kaede's and let Kaede out of her mental state alone when she finds out that Asa's condition is getting worse and she's probably going to die, then move the Kaede-Asa scene to the hospital with Asa in bed, all white and stuff. Much more easier to pull and nothing would have been OOC. Of course I'd have moved ep 22 and mix it with the epilogue. That could work.

But I'd probably go with my Sia suggestion if I can pull it, although the above sounds more dramatic. Will I have Asa die? Hmm hmm.. It would be excellent either way. Although now, I think it would be best if I hook them up in ep 17-18 and see what I can pull in the remaining episodes, instead of ep 11-12.

Canvas 2 seemed to use some sort of Sia red herring, but it used it extensively for many episodes before deciding to blur the picture. That's ok, but I didn't expect Sia to be dumped, so I'm not expecting enough reason to dump Kiri either. And if Hiroki rejects Kiri it'll be Shuffle all over again, when I couldn't see a reason for Rin to dump Sia other than "there's another girl I like, I found that out now".

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by npal

You know, someone pointed out that even 1st cousin marriage is legal in some countries

@rooboy666 I wouldn't throw everything out. I could use the whole Kaede arc, but since Sia didn't doublecross Kaede, the arc conclusion would be much smoother and believable. Sia is a far better character than Asa and I'd make sure she didn't go OOC. Well, I would've maked sure Asa didn't go OOC. I'd mix Asa's arc with Kaede's and let Kaede out of her mental state alone when she finds out that Asa's condition is getting worse and she's probably going to die, then move the Kaede-Asa scene to the hospital with Asa in bed, all white and stuff. Much more easier to pull and nothing would have been OOC. Of course I'd have moved ep 22 and mix it with the epilogue. That could work.

But I'd probably go with my Sia suggestion if I can pull it, although the above sounds more dramatic. Will I have Asa die? Hmm hmm.. It would be excellent either way. Although now, I think it would be best if I hook them up in ep 17-18 and see what I can pull in the remaining episodes, instead of ep 11-12.

Canvas 2 seemed to use some sort of Sia red herring, but it used it extensively for many episodes before deciding to blur the picture. That's ok, but I didn't expect Sia to be dumped, so I'm not expecting enough reason to dump Kiri either. And if Hiroki rejects Kiri it'll be Shuffle all over again, when I couldn't see a reason for Rin to dump Sia other than "there's another girl I like, I found that out now".

That still sounds just as formulaic to me. My point was more along the lines of "that's still a formula". In Smallville it's called the freak of the week formula, introduce character, minor conflict, major conflict, resolution. Rinse and repeat with the next show (though in this case it would be arcs).
I guess my real point was that almost all episodic writing is formulaic, if you don't like the particular formula used in harem animes, you could always just switch to a different kind of show. This is one of the reasons why I try to watch a variety of shows. I find if I watch just one type than the formulas involved become too stale. I'm reasonably sure that most very good writers are employed in jobs that don't involve anime that airs past midnight. Though in your particular case I know you watch other kinds of shows as well, so I'm unsure exactly what your point is.

Spoiler:

For the record, I actually enjoyed the ending of Shuffle, and the more I discuss it, I think I like the ending to Canvas2 also (DESPITE the fact that Elis is one of my least favorite characters). But then I enjoy a certain amount of ambiguity in my characters. I like it when, late in a series, a character's actions force me to re-evaluate my assessments of a character and his relations with other characters. While I haven't quite managed to refit my thinking on Hiroki, that's at least partially because I haven't gone back to actually examine the earlier episodes (except for 20-24). I watched Honey and Clover and Twin Spica this week and my evenings have been taken up early with my son's lacrosse practice and later with his broken arm.
In my book, the worst writing is when a character acts one way all the way through a series (i.e. there's no growth), or when a character's complete thoughts are spelled out for me all the way through a series (i.e. it's written too transparently). To me, out of character are the three most overused words in all writing analysis. it's *usually* a sign that someone has set a mental picture of what the characters are like and hasn't allowed for change due to changing circumstances. But, as always, YMMV. I just thought I'd point out that there _is_ an actual intelligent alternative to the kind of writing you like. Which is one of the things that makes the whole world so wonderful. Intelligent people can simply disagree about what's "good".

[mangatron]

...

........

*cough*

...............

Now, I don't know what to say, but I think it's more appropriate to greet everyone of you here, my friends, my fellow canvas 2 viewers, and my.....fans

Hello everyone, it's nice to post again after so many weeks of absence. I apologize that I have not been there for the last remaining episodes of Canvas 2 like I always have been for the first half. There is much to tell about my past 2 months, the pain and suffering I have endured, and my current status as of now. But to sum it up, right now I am in Germany, several thousand miles away from home and my desktop, and right now I've been currently going down memory lane and visiting the places of my past life when I used to live in Germany more than a decade ago. For years I have avoided this trip, and it was about time I just had to go. I'll blog those later, but right now, the subject at hand:

Canvas 2.

Before I begin, I'm sure there is a lot of discussion that has gone on the past few pages, so anyone nice enough to sum it up as short as possible as to what you all were discussing in my absence. I appreciate that. I will then post my thoughts on Canvas 2, the past few episodes, my deciding thoughts and just about everything that I'm gonna assault you guys with


It's good to be back, and expect me to be here on the forums in the next couple of days as I try to regain the lost time I have so painfully tried to not lose.

On a side note I'd like to personally thank iwolf at L-R for doing what he can to bring me the anime that I normally would have watched myself (I have avoided my way of watching anime since I, at this time, don't have a portable TV with me )

[npal]

@rooboy666 You know, according to your logic, everything is formulaic. And how would the "actual intelligent alternative" to the kind of writing I like make Shuffle or Canvas? Plus, Smallville is almost a soap opera, you can't easily escape repetition. Here we're talking about a 24 ep-only anime.

Spoiler for summing up a bit:

Can't remember the whole discussion, but we were split about whether the ending was expected or not. Without having watched ep 23 and 24 subbed, we still can't tell if the ending is really justifiable or not, but ep 22 blurs the picture, with most of us agreeing that it still needs a few more events before it can be considered truly justifiable. The ending was a shock to everyone though, for good or bad. We spent a good deal of posts getting over the shock. We still haven't reach any other form of agreement besides an Elis ending being possible as of ep 22. We were debating Hiroki's reactions in ep 22 and in previous episodes regarding Elis and Kiri. Needless to say, we're still split regarding Hiroki's intentions and personality. This page's discussion focused (and a bit from the previous one) on Canvas' characters and Canvas' and Shuffle's scriptwriting. Right now, we are having a sort of disagreement on what's decent writing.

I believe that sums it up a bit. I don't remember most stuff but that's more or less what took place.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by mangatron

...

........

*cough*

...............

Now, I don't know what to say, but I think it's more appropriate to greet everyone of you here, my friends, my fellow canvas 2 viewers, and my.....fans

Hello everyone, it's nice to post again after so many weeks of absence. I apologize that I have not been there for the last remaining episodes of Canvas 2 like I always have been for the first half. There is much to tell about my past 2 months, the pain and suffering I have endured, and my current status as of now. But to sum it up, right now I am in Germany, several thousand miles away from home and my desktop, and right now I've been currently going down memory lane and visiting the places of my past life when I used to live in Germany more than a decade ago. For years I have avoided this trip, and it was about time I just had to go. I'll blog those later, but right now, the subject at hand:

Canvas 2.

Before I begin, I'm sure there is a lot of discussion that has gone on the past few pages, so anyone nice enough to sum it up as short as possible as to what you all were discussing in my absence. I appreciate that. I will then post my thoughts on Canvas 2, the past few episodes, my deciding thoughts and just about everything that I'm gonna assault you guys with


It's good to be back, and expect me to be here on the forums in the next couple of days as I try to regain the lost time I have so painfully tried to not lose.

On a side note I'd like to personally thank iwolf at L-R for doing what he can to bring me the anime that I normally would have watched myself (I have avoided my way of watching anime since I, at this time, don't have a portable TV with me )

Yo Mangatron, glad to see back.

I was wondering which jail they sent you to for loli-hentai

This sums up my feeling of canvas2 Ep24.

*MaKi*canvas2 writers*Maki*Maki*Maki*Maki*Maki*Maki



Btw you miss a great discussion on loli in the Fate/Stay Night forum

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by mangatron

...

........

*cough*

...............

Now, I don't know what to say, but I think it's more appropriate to greet everyone of you here, my friends, my fellow canvas 2 viewers, and my.....fans

Hello everyone, it's nice to post again after so many weeks of absence. I apologize that I have not been there for the last remaining episodes of Canvas 2 like I always have been for the first half. There is much to tell about my past 2 months, the pain and suffering I have endured, and my current status as of now. But to sum it up, right now I am in Germany, several thousand miles away from home and my desktop, and right now I've been currently going down memory lane and visiting the places of my past life when I used to live in Germany more than a decade ago. For years I have avoided this trip, and it was about time I just had to go. I'll blog those later, but right now, the subject at hand:

Canvas 2.

Before I begin, I'm sure there is a lot of discussion that has gone on the past few pages, so anyone nice enough to sum it up as short as possible as to what you all were discussing in my absence. I appreciate that. I will then post my thoughts on Canvas 2, the past few episodes, my deciding thoughts and just about everything that I'm gonna assault you guys with


It's good to be back, and expect me to be here on the forums in the next couple of days as I try to regain the lost time I have so painfully tried to not lose.

On a side note I'd like to personally thank iwolf at L-R for doing what he can to bring me the anime that I normally would have watched myself (I have avoided my way of watching anime since I, at this time, don't have a portable TV with me )

Wow, hi. Welcome back, it's been a while.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by mangatron

Before I begin, I'm sure there is a lot of discussion that has gone on the past few pages, so anyone nice enough to sum it up as short as possible as to what you all were discussing in my absence.

Spoiler:

Logical, critically thinking people: OMFGWTF?! Elis won from out of nowhere bad writing lame plot twist the show is ruined!!!
Elis fanboys: YAY ELIS WON!!!11!! It's not out of nowhere because here are these vague non-existant clues that you can see in ep 22 with hindsight overanalysis and a microscope!!111!!

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by npal

@rooboy666 You know, according to your logic, everything is formulaic.

Well, actually that was my point.

Originally Posted by npal

And how would the "actual intelligent alternative" to the kind of writing I like make Shuffle or Canvas? Plus, Smallville is almost a soap opera, you can't easily escape repetition. Here we're talking about a 24 ep-only anime.

Does it have to be repeated thirty times before it becomes boring? Twice is usually enough for me. I should point out, that I don't necessarily think your idea sounds bad, I just don't think it sounds particularly original either. Like most literary ideas, it seems fine in principle, but of course, the execution is rarely up to the actual writer.
And, of course, I should point out that I wasn't trying to say that the way you like the writing to be is _NOT_ intelligent, just that it isn't the _ONLY_ thing reasonable, intelligent people might be looking for, since no two people are the same it is reasonable to assume that not everyone looks for the same things out of a series. I definitely in no way intended to demean the things you like, I just thought I would defend the fact that there is a school of thought out there that doesn't necessarily agree with yours. Or at least, that's what my literature professors beat into me.

Sorry if I seem cranky, my son had to have his arm re-set before putting it into a cast yesterday, and, on top of that, he just realized this morning (when we were at the game) that this means he won't be able to play lacrosse at all this season. So, as you can imagine, it's been a fairly miserable two days.

[npal]

Oh well, you could say so, no offense taken. I can accept different opinions (as long as they don't try to qualify as better - unless of course I can see they are better in which case I'll support them )

@justsomeguy

Spoiler:

Sure I'm really happy Elis won and since I was enjoying the series up to ep 22, I should at least try to find something to credit the writers, if I can. Of course, if ep 23 and 24 can't provide enough evidence to support an Elis ending, while happy, I'll admit that they should have made a better script. Eh... that bed scene and Hiroki being reluctant to take Kiri with him to the hospital is kinda strange you know. And not moving with Kiri for so long is strange, too. Of course, ep to ep 21 and without having seen the final screenshots, I was certain that it was a Kiri ending.

If Vexx sees the remaining two episodes and we can't agree on the amount of clues, I'll admit that the ending was forced. Vexx is always careful in his analysis and always considers other people's thoughts. I consider Vexx a source of neutral opinion.

For truth, here is my second comment after seeing the screenshots (without having seen ep 22 yet).

Originally Posted by npal

Spoiler:

Damn, I'm not even sure *I* like it and I'm an Elis supporter They better have one hell of a good explanation for this But I don't want to be spoiled, I'm waiting for subs.

Hope not many were spoiler. Sorry!

But I admit

Spoiler:

I'm really happy Elis won

As I said before, the only thing I didn't like about Canvas is that my favorite is doomed again Other than that, I liked the storytelling and the character interactions, and I still do. And up to now, the series were pretty decent so I hope that ep 23-24 with shed some light to this whole case.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Interesting interpretations I hadn't considered.... well, no flames from here because I'm tend to be more in the "plot must make sense" camp than in one girl's "win no matter how lamely written" camp. So far I've interpreted the plot from 1-21 as:
1) Elise must grow up and learn to use red - not all childhood dreams are realistic as Hiroki views her as a sister and has always held a candle for Kiri.
2) Hiroki must get over his block, stop stepping aside for evil Yanagi and take Kiri.
3) Other minor adventures involving the other girls.

All that, I agree to a certain extent, except for the bits about Hiroki/Kiri. It doesn't change the fact that the overall series was all about the love triangle (to which Elis 'dropped out' in the second half, and attempting to move on past her feelings.) This is why, despite Episode 19 and 20, which at last, shows a bit of support for KirixHiroki, the way they treat the supposed winner of the triangle was lukewarm at best, which made me question if Kiri really is the intended outcome. Especially when that 'outcome' seems to come in the form of a plot point (you can see this when Kiri's confession switched to Elis immediately), not a celebrated harem event.

I'm not sure how to put this in words, but this is exactly the same case with Asa of Shuffle, who won early, and Shuffle created a *moment* for Rin and Asa, who took their time to sprout GOOD (yes, Npal, I'm looking at you :P) romantic junk, as is the case with Junichi/Nemu, etcetcetc. I didn't see that happening with Hiroki/Kiri at all; was there something else going to happen based on this setup? I'm not sure, really.

But Episode 22 marks a turning point for me - when Elis told Hiroki she didn't have feelings for him anymore, a blatant lie, credits to her for trying to move on for real this time. Here, she is no longer the childish brat, Hiroki's 'sister'. She goes against what Hiroki normally expects her to do, and this throws his expectations of her as 'Hiroki's kid sister' out of the window. (Albeit late, but who ever said the dude was smart?) Ironically, it is now Hiroki who has to question his own feelings, as it seems that he took it for granted that his feelings for Kiri are always there.

It may lead to Kiri after all, but I hope for something to give grounds to all my opinions regarding this triangle. If it is Elis as the winner, then my skills gained from my days of watching harem weren't all for naught!

[Vexx]

That "lukewarm" is the main clue presented in ep22 along with Kiri's troubled looks at key points. I guess its the same old problem under it all ... male lead with poor internal character development. Kiri and Elise are doing all the acting...
well.... I guess ep23 will be enlightening.

[cheesie]

^ It'll be nice if Hiroki doesn't keep to himself so much - makes it hard to figure out what he thinks of the girls, and I wouldn't have to rely on direction most of the time. But it's also why I just can't buy HirokixKiri, no matter how much I try to see it otherwise. Feel free to slap me in the face with triumphant posts if I'm wrong though.

[MonkeyBrains]

Originally Posted by Morgri

Huh really? I though it was a pretty good ending, especially compared to a lot of crappy endings anime's tend to have nowadays. Either way, Elis is a second cousin not a first cousin (not that there is any excuse...=p).

Actually, when you share the same grandparents on one side of the family, that makes you first cousins. Not sure how you got second cousins... Not sure how you could get anything but first cousins after episode 10... That's neither here nor there, as it is apparently okay in Japan, which is the intended audience anyway, not our puritan mindsets here.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Interesting interpretations I hadn't considered.... well, no flames from here because I'm tend to be more in the "plot must make sense" camp than in one girl's "win no matter how lamely written" camp. So far I've interpreted the plot from 1-21 as:
1) Elise must grow up and learn to use red - not all childhood dreams are realistic as Hiroki views her as a sister and has always held a candle for Kiri.
2) Hiroki must get over his block, stop stepping aside for evil Yanagi and take Kiri.
3) Other minor adventures involving the other girls.

That was my interpretation coming into episode 22 as well. When I watched the first half of the series, and I have a few times, it seemed very strong KirixHiroki. Particularly the school outing, and then the summer festival, where he completely ignores Elis, and Elis notices things like how Elis has never seen Hiroki smile/laugh like he was with Kiri. It did not seem lukewarm back in the first half. Then episode 13 happens, which is all KirixHiroki backstory. Episode 14 deals with the present day aftermaths of that, and Kiri appears to back off from Hiroki after what she finds out (Elis is more perceptive about what was going on).

Then, until episode 19, it seemed like the series had absolutely nothing to do with the love triangle at all, from either the perspective of Elis or Kiri (although I'm sure there was random blushing from all parties at one point or another), and I wasn't sure what they were planning to do, particularly after all the heavy stuff in the first half. Then episode 19 rolls around, and the love triangle gets into play. Hiroki not sure what to do about Kiri, Kiri not sure what to do about Hiroki, and Elis not sure what to do about Hiroki.

Originally Posted by crisis

All that, I agree to a certain extent, except for the bits about Hiroki/Kiri. It doesn't change the fact that the overall series was all about the love triangle (to which Elis 'dropped out' in the second half, and attempting to move on past her feelings.) This is why, despite Episode 19 and 20, which at last, shows a bit of support for KirixHiroki, the way they treat the supposed winner of the triangle was lukewarm at best, which made me question if Kiri really is the intended outcome. Especially when that 'outcome' seems to come in the form of a plot point (you can see this when Kiri's confession switched to Elis immediately), not a celebrated harem event.

The fact they did not show the aftermath of Kiri's confession is never a good sign in a harem show, but still, up until that point, what else did you have to work with? And I think that appears to be the main problem, as Vexx puts it...

Originally Posted by Vexx

That "lukewarm" is the main clue presented in ep22 along with Kiri's troubled looks at key points. I guess its the same old problem under it all ... male lead with poor internal character development. Kiri and Elise are doing all the acting...
well.... I guess ep23 will be enlightening.

It would be better if they created a foundation for Elis other than "well, we're not going to show KirixHiroki critical scenes on screen, so it must be ElisxHiroki". Or focus on Elis without actually showing what Hiroki thinks. I'm not sure how anyone can say that's a satisfying ending, other than, of course, if you're an Elis fanboy, then you get the ending you wanted. Basing the ending solely off of who gets more screen time is definitely a reliable indicator for these shows, but usually it's coupled with some emotional development from the male lead, which is bugging me about this show. Elis loving Hiroki is old news, and not that interesting. Same goes for Kiri loving Hiroki. There needs to be more from Hiroki. All I got going into episode 22 from Hiroki was Hiroki treating Elis like a sister or daughter, and Hiroki fumbling over his feelings for Kiri and the past with Yanagi (he keeps thinking about whether he's good enough for Kiri), and of course Kiri and Elis both wishing for Hiroki (although at times it seemed like Elis had actually moved on with her life). The most we seem to get out of Hiroki in terms of romantic feelings to Elis is maybe a deep blush in episode 22, and maybe his admiration for Elis moving forward and conquering her fears on her own. That's probably going to have to be it. I guess, though, sisterly love translates easily into romantic love, if one wants to intrepret Da Capo that way as a good example.

I suddenly thought of Nadesico again... Uribitake telling the mechanics to be more careful with a new mech, to "treat it like a sister, not a girlfriend".

Anyway, I'm being vague here, because it appears, crisis, that you are at least pretending you don't know what happens in episode 23 or 24 (although how you could not when almost half this thread is now dealing with episode 24 is beyond me ).

For all the faults of Shuffle and its last two arcs (Kaede and Asa) in terms of writing/plotting, you definitely could at least tell from either episode 6 (if you're generous), or at least the Primula arc, that Rin really did love Asa (Nerine and Sia picked it up immediately after Primula's rescue). And Da Capo had some major build up as well (I really liked how that series actually bothered to deal with what some might call the slightly creepy "sister" factor that creeps into a lot of these shows - Suginami confronted Junichi about it, for instance - it showed guts, that made me appreciate the series a lot more).

I honestly don't know where I'm going with this post. So much of this has been said already, in different forms, it's getting old. We all know how this ended. For better or worse. Not every anime series is gold, and so very few series seem to end well these days. Just cause the last episode is bad, doesn't necessarily mean that your feelings about why you liked the rest of the series need to change (Nadesico, again...). But it is fun talking about it.

The talk about a popularity poll with Elis as the sister character, I think I saw that on getchu at one point. Can't remember how I got there. But that might help others who care locate the poll.

By the way, in terms of popularity polls, I recall they've had at least 3 on the official Canvas2 webpage... The first poll included the PC game characters (no Tomoko), and it was Elis, Kiri, then Hagino. The last two polls (with Tomoko included) were Tomoko, Kiri, then Elis. Which, if they were basing it off of popularity polls, would explain Tomoko's increased presence in episode 22.

Spoiler for ep 23 and 24:

and of course her increased presence in the last two episodes

How did I end up posting such a long, rambling post? I need my head examined.

[cheesie]

Particularly the school outing, and then the summer festival, where he completely ignores Elis, and Elis notices things like how Elis has never seen Hiroki smile/laugh like he was with Kiri.

My reaction, when I watched those episodes, was that it intends to portray Elis as a 'victim' instead. Granted, it doesn't mean that it nullifies the HirokixKiri moments, but it seemed more to call viewers to sympathize with Elis instead of supporting HirokixKiri. (Had the series been about Elis coping with her heartbreak, then it's a different story.) Using Elis to witness Hiroki's emotions with Kiri was one of the few telltale signs (for me) that there's more to it, really. Thinking back then, I'm not sure if I'm watching this through Elis-tinted glasses, but thinking about it now, it all makes sense, and how it makes sense, I'll be addressing that very soon in the end. *squints at you*

The fact they did not show the aftermath of Kiri's confession is never a good sign in a harem show, but still, up until that point, what else did you have to work with? And I think that appears to be the main problem, as Vexx puts it...

Agreed muchly on. Though I thought that the focus away from them just adds to the HirokixElis pile - because in the end, it's two girls fighting over Hiroki, after all. Which leads to your statement about creating a new foundation, to which I wholly agree (on the assumption that the last two episodes have yet to provide a solid basis for either couples anyway.)

Anyway, I'm being vague here, because it appears, crisis, that you are at least pretending you don't know what happens in episode 23 or 24 (although how you could not when almost half this thread is now dealing with episode 24 is beyond me ).

*laughs* No, though I can see where you're going, reading through my posts in an attempt to guess the love interest. Rest assured, I am totally innocent in posting my nonsense up, and has no other intention than to spread the HirokixElis love around. (Unless of course, if it's something beyond my reach, then delightfully spoiling myself in the warm series of Honey and Clover is the way to go.) Having brief knowledge that it involves a loli-cousin, I was all set to hate her but ended up liking her instead. ^^

Since the finale is just right there, It was hell attempting not to click, and find out if Hiroki goes for Kiri or Elis, but Canvas 2 certainly fired me enough to keep on guessing till the very end, the same way Shuffle did. Yes, because I like Elis that much.

However, THIS:

I'm not sure how anyone can say that's a satisfying ending, other than, of course, if you're an Elis fanboy, then you get the ending you wanted.

...tells me my efforts were all for naught. ._. WHY. Words can't express my immense fangirl joy once it sank in that Elis won the round, but WHY. *smacksmacksmacksmack*

(A more coherent post later, once I stop smiling like an idiot,. )

[npal]

Originally Posted by MonkeyBrains

For all the faults of Shuffle and its last two arcs (Kaede and Asa) in terms of writing/plotting, you definitely could at least tell from either episode 6 (if you're generous), or at least the Primula arc, that Rin really did love Asa (Nerine and Sia picked it up immediately after Primula's rescue). And Da Capo had some major build up as well (I really liked how that series actually bothered to deal with what some might call the slightly creepy "sister" factor that creeps into a lot of these shows - Suginami confronted Junichi about it, for instance - it showed guts, that made me appreciate the series a lot more).

Besides crisis' points, I had to point that. That's what we're doing for Canvas now, we pick earlier episodes based on the ending and try to find all hints possible, with us fanboys pointing more hints as decent. The same happened in Shuffle. The Nerine-Sia thoughts about Asa seemed to me like "look, someone's in the game besides us and Rin isn't making any real choice so we have to keep an eye there". The Asa-Rin interaction in Primula's arc seemed more like a sister supporting her brother in what he wants to do, without counting the ever present blushing of course (all girls blushing for Rin, Rin blushing for all girls all the time). I even thought ep 18's "confess your love on the wheel" was the quartet's idea, after all they devised the date without much input from Rin.

What is the meaning of this? That if my glasses are a particular color, I see impicit or vague things in a particular way. But I didn't care much about accepting those pointers. Despite my better judgment that Rin loved Sia (ok Kaede was far-fetched but she was my favorite) from all the facts of previous episodes, Rin suddenly rejected Sia and went for Asa. To me, it didn't make sense. Then, what troubled me in Shuffle was the Kaede arc resolution and the weak reasoning behind Asa's reasoning, but this can be easily seen by anyone so my glasses didn't play that big a part in that.

I believe that's what's happening here. Those who want to see something will see it, those who don't, won't, but it's as much a case of bad writing as the Rin-Sia-Asa resolution. To me, Sia's rejection came out of nowhere (it still does, no matter what anyone says, to me it reeks of "ok, NOT Sia, why? because"), no matter tha claim for Asa clues. For others, it was inevitable and justifiable.

In essence, it boils down to what you consider clues. There's not definite case of bad writing here as it was in Kaede's arc resolution or Asa's weak reasoning, unless we count Sia's rejection as bad writing, then I'll admit that there's a problem with Kiri's confession. ALTHOUGH in Sia's case, there were OBVIOUS facts (kissing scene in the beach,which was the first in the series, going out together, etc), while in Kiri's case, Hiroki had so many chances but didn't do anything. Rin tried to kiss Sia but they were found out.

[cheesie]

Despite my better judgment that Rin loved Sia (ok Kaede was far-fetched but she was my favorite) from all the facts of previous episodes, Rin suddenly rejected Sia and went for Asa.

Off topic, but... regarding Sia and the fact that she was the first girl Rin had slightly 'meaningful' scenes with - in watching those episodes, am I the only one who thinks that after this, Sia was the first to go? It was way too early in the series for Rin to make his choice, and there were four others, so Sia as the 'winner' was something that didn't cross my mind in the least.

Spoiler:

Though I'm delighted that it's not Kiri (no offense to Kiri fans; I'm notoriously protective of my OTPs, sorry ), I'll still want to watch eps 23/24, to see how Hiroki comes to making his own choice that is Elis. But I suspect I won't have much grudge against it, since I have barely enough foreshadowing to have it make sense. Unless they throw something random at me. Like Hiroki smoking the loli crack. Then I rage. </random> Sorry, just high from Mai Otome. :x

[npal]

Well, it did cross mine, it could be supported, it was there, so why not pull a harem change for god's sake? Make the procclaimed "INNOVATION". I'd take Canvas' approach anytime than having adequate clues, strong facts and throwing them out of the window just because there are 4 more girls. That wasn't a very successful harem approach, in most other harem anime, leads TEND towards one or the other, without having strong proof to support that resolution, then either pick no one or just pick one, whether it makes the most sense or not. In Shuffle, there were strong FACTS supporting a Rin-Sia resolution but someone took the time to throw them out. Someone might point out that ep 16-17 was basically Sia seeing that things have slowed down and she's not liking it. Well, we can't compare that to HirokixKiri that seemed to not progress at all. When around each other, they were just as they were back in highschool, no real change.

The "harem process of elimination" of Shuffle is idiotic at best, concerning Sia. The whole idea of elimination is somewhat flawed, but it can be done, if the male lead doesn't show a particular interest in someone and rejects them. Then it can stand more or less. But the whole Sia case was bad writing to me in favor of Asa.

In Canvas' case, the childhood friend status doesn't make things easier, since most of Hiroki's reactions towards Kiri can be interpreted under that prism. The only thing that could break that prism is a kiss scene, but that never happened.
The problem with Hiroki is that we don't know just what type of guy he really is.
Example : We know Takayuki just goes with the flow, be it Haruka or Mitsuki, I don't think he cares that much, it's first come first serve, but if something happens, he's open game again. Rin is a typical, "I'll help everyone", indecisive guy, for whom no one can say who he really loves. Why? Well, he tried to kiss Sia before. He can be romantic without meaning much. So even ep 19-21 Asa interactions could as well mean nothing. Under this prism, we don't know who he's gonna dump next. Nozomu from Futakoi is more like Rin, but unlike Rin, he tries to keep everyone at an equal distance (more or less) until he can sort out his feeling and know who he really loves. That's more mature than Rin going from one girl to the next in a fit of indecision.

Now where does Hiroki stand? I'd say he's more like Nozomu. He has some flaws, he can be harsh at times, but he's usually composed, well spoken, helpful and kind. We know why he rejected Kiri the first time. We don't know what happened to Kiri's second confession. We don't know why he rejected Elis (or is someone knows, point me to the episode and time, I can't remember right now). I mean, even Rin SUPPOSEDLY gave the reason that he likes someone else (bad writing if you ask me, he didn't give it much thought when he was dating Sia).

So, for me, it boils down to "why did Hiroki reject Elis the first time?" If he said he loves another... well... I won't say that feelings change, I'd say it's bad writing and Hiroki should stick to what he says. As it is, Hiroki never did anything explicit or implicit that points to a romantic relationship with any of the girls. But since most other girls (except Hagino, I'd be positively shocked if they pulled something like that ) were out of the game, for most of us it seemed that Hiroki rejecting Elis automatically means Kiri.

The thing I liked about Canvas, which Shuffle didn't have, is consistency in the love triangle and not "let's all fall for Hiroki and get our screentime and story resolved by Hiroki". Elis was helping the other girls, too, at some point.

I really want to believe that it's not another case of bad writing and that Hiroki's reasons will become apparent in the next 2 episodes.

[cheesie]

npal, my friend... in my happy MoritaxHagu bubble, I'll just say, that that's some thinly concealed layer of massive hate for Shuffle right there. *pats*

[npal]

Originally Posted by crisis

npal, my friend... in my happy MoritaxHagu bubble, I'll just say, that that's some thinly concealed layer of massive hate for Shuffle right there. *pats*

Well, it is well founded though

[evil-samurai]

Originally Posted by mangatron

........

*cough*

...............

And I thought you abandoned the forum, it seemed so werid with No Nose-bleed Summary to read when ever I read your Summary it made me feel like Canvas 2 was full! of ecchi moments, so watching on from when you left.. it seemed like a more tamed show.

Originally Posted by crisis

But Elis all the way, partly because she's the first where her 'onii-chans' doesn't drive me up the wall, her little jealous fits were actually kinda cute, and she's, well, great.

You know, I'm not a huge fan of younger girl characters calling in most case the lead male 'onii-chan' , In Canvas 2 I actually really! enjoyed it when it was coming from Elis, it felt and seemed so normal compared to times when they just have a onii-chan character for the sake of having one.

Originally Posted by MonkeyBrains

Spoiler:

I'm not sure how anyone can say that's a satisfying ending, other than, of course, if you're an Elis fanboy, then you get the ending you wanted

Spoiler:

Well its a satisfying ending for me, well at least going from the screen shots and I'm no elise fanboy ^^ What I like about it is the Big Suprize... (from what I was up to in the sub) which is missing from alot of shows, and the reaction from people is priceless to read.

It did look like it was leaning Kiri's way from early on in the show, alot of my though on its going to be her it coming from when Hiroki said "I just have to keep on treating her (elise) like i've always done" after she told him, she like him.

I admit, how else could you take that scene other then, he doesn't want to have a relationship with her. There was a moment when Hiroki said, "Shit!" and hit his head again't the table, After Elise told him that she liked him (shown in a scene after elise isbn't there) which I thought.. mabye he was pissed-off that he could fess up his feeling, but then the line "I just have to keep on treating her (elise) like i've always done" came into action. After that scene (i think) so I was unsure.

The Doors were never totally Shut for Elise, as she kept on getting screen time, alot of it with Hiroki but they didn't go make a clear point to everyone the she was the girl, who the lead liked.

I swear some scene I felt like Elise and Hiroki acted like a couple , but Hiroki saying she is only my cousin, and showing some scenes with kiri, took it away from really feeling like that.

I kinda like that to a point that it isn't clear.. but still they could of changed some scene to make it so you could better guess, who feeling what.. and why?, well still waiting for the subs ^^ to see how much of a ending it really was.

I really!!!!!!!! cant understand how anyone can like the Shuffle Romance between those... two characters, but somehow people did I think the Romance is unbelievably Crap! but hey thats just me [though I'm not looking for people to crap on and say why they though it was good, I've it heard to many times >.>]

@ npal oh! I see the Text Sig is back, Cool!