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Old 2020-07-25, 19:43   Link #3401
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Otherwise all the characters are nothing more than blank puppets if you ignore their own individual personalities
Its the other way around, they are blank puppets is the basis of this.
Exactly why Incest and Dark Doraemon ended up they way they are.
If you ask me, Varhrān is the only character so far that has a real personality
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Old 2020-07-25, 23:33   Link #3402
Cosmic Eagle
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Yeah they are, but technically speaking so do everyone under NEET's reign, Habaki's crew etc even if the latter two aren't as blank as the Avesta people. Yet we don't ignore the Dies or Eastern Expedition people's characters.
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Old 2020-07-26, 00:31   Link #3403
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Yeah they are, but technically speaking so do everyone under NEET's reign, Habaki's crew etc even if the latter two aren't as blank as the Avesta people. Yet we don't ignore the Dies or Eastern Expedition people's characters.
Errr, no. Neet does not dictate what people think, just loop time. He did nothing more than make them repeat themselves. He never made any decisions for them.
Hajun's case, yes. They are blank puppets until the eastern expedition begins. More technically speaking, you can say they are puppets until they met Kasumi. But that's also the reason why Kasumi's chapter is like the single chapter that held the most weight in terms of character development.

Avesta? So far we don't have any character development of that level.
We are still at a stage of "Varhrān making Mithra's puppets dance."
Though, that's why I am having expectation on Kaykhusraw, he seems to be the next person who can have some real character.
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Old 2020-07-26, 05:37   Link #3404
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Errr, no. Neet does not dictate what people think, just loop time. He did nothing more than make them repeat themselves. He never made any decisions for them.
Well if you effectively confine their agency......There's a reason it took so long and so many small micro-shifts for people to do something else radically different after all if you are just going to essentially repeat their history over and over. He really means it literally when he says they are characters in his opera
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Old 2020-07-26, 15:21   Link #3405
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Well if you effectively confine their agency......There's a reason it took so long and so many small micro-shifts for people to do something else radically different after all if you are just going to essentially repeat their history over and over. He really means it literally when he says they are characters in his opera
Able to make one's own decision int heir lives is a different concept from whether they get to have more than one chance to make those decisions okay?
The mercury is yes to the former and no to the later.
And a second chance is not something that should be automatically granted to everyone.
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Old 2020-07-26, 20:54   Link #3406
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But then you run into the question of how the Mercury began and whether there was "a beginning where people were free to make decisions" in the first place


The way I see it, the Mercury has always been a self-sustaining closed system
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Old 2020-07-26, 21:56   Link #3407
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But then you run into the question of how the Mercury began and whether there was "a beginning where people were free to make decisions" in the first place


The way I see it, the Mercury has always been a self-sustaining closed system
But that's not what's important though.
His time loop may be like that from the first place, but he didn't make any decision for his inhabitants.
Thus, it really is nobody's responsibility if the system is like that when it spontaneously poped ip.
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Old 2020-07-27, 02:20   Link #3408
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But that's not what's important though.
His time loop may be like that from the first place, but he didn't make any decision for his inhabitants.
Thus, it really is nobody's responsibility if the system is like that when it spontaneously poped ip.
Still doesn't change the fact that his inhabitants kind of don't have any say in the matter and must follow their fated path though. Most that can be said is that it isn't as invasive as Mithra or Hajun but that's about it. People, NEET himself included, still aren't free
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Old 2020-07-27, 19:11   Link #3409
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Still doesn't change the fact that his inhabitants kind of don't have any say in the matter and must follow their fated path though. Most that can be said is that it isn't as invasive as Mithra or Hajun but that's about it. People, NEET himself included, still aren't free
At best the situation is a Schrodinger's Cat.
Because you need someone else to make a decision for the person the claim the person has no free well.
But NEET's universe is already the way it is at the very beginning, so there is no way to determine how the decision is made.
So it is neither way. The criteria to prove and disprove this simply does not exist.
At the best we can only say this is bad luck.
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Old 2020-07-31, 06:02   Link #3410
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Masada really revised his cosmology a lot it seems. Taikyouku being a function of the user's will, now multiverse being a function of the inhabitant's degrees of freedom.....


And yet still ironically, NEET's world was when we got an infinitely vast multiverse despite it's tight restrictions. Truly, as is stated in today's update, NEET's multiverse is something else.




The Frederica is ultra cute. Truly ultra cute
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Old 2020-07-31, 18:46   Link #3411
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Reads today's entry...

Ehhh? I don't see Masada saying anything like that.
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Old 2020-07-31, 22:57   Link #3412
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Reads today's entry...

Ehhh? I don't see Masada saying anything like that.
It says the ability to have a multiverse is determined by how much freedom and potential for different actions its inhabitants have
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Old 2020-08-01, 00:09   Link #3413
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No, it is determine by whether the Throne holder has that degree of freedom in their desire to allow that.
Under a throne that dictates everything with an one dimensional rule, a multi verse is impossible.

It is until Snake who deeply desires a "what if" that the cosmology expanded
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Old 2020-08-01, 00:21   Link #3414
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No, it is determine by whether the Throne holder has that degree of freedom in their desire to allow that.
Under a throne that dictates everything with an one dimensional rule, a multi verse is impossible.

It is until Snake who deeply desires a "what if" that the cosmology expanded
Quote:
これが発生するためには前提として、高い自由度と自立した意志を皆が持っている必要があり、言い換えれば宇 宙の在り方が開放的な体系でなければならない
しかし作中の世界は、真我に絶対統制された善悪闘争という閉塞の理。大半の者がなぜ戦うのかも理解していな い傀儡の宇宙ゆえに、多元的な広がりとは無縁である。要するに、選択の自由度が極めて低いので“もしも”が 起こらぬ世の中と言えるだろう。
Sounds like its referring to the inhabitants though. The Throne God just decides whether to allow the inhabitants that freedom or not
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Old 2020-08-01, 00:29   Link #3415
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Sounds like its referring to the inhabitants though. The Throne God just decides whether to allow the inhabitants that freedom or not
And you have to look at the paragraph after that.
If the established rule is one dimensional in the first place, there is no such possibility afterward.
Hell, not even Muzan's world where he leave his people to their own devices was not enough to make the universe multiversal.

It is clearly stated that it took Snake's strong desire for "what if" that managed to expand the cosmology.
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Old 2020-08-01, 01:31   Link #3416
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The lines after just say Mithra restricted the ability of her people to choose resulting in "what ifs" not being able to occur. Main thing being it's still refering to her people.

NEET's case is he himself with his desire for the unknown so is it even the same thing when one is talking about the inhabitants and another about the Throne God? NEET's case even seems singularly special since the closest thing to parallel timelines before him is Astaroth or Satanel's paradoxes. Would those two not fit more closely to what is described here?





As for Muzan....well, technically Astaroth and Satanel are from his world so....
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Old 2020-08-01, 02:23   Link #3417
shmaster
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As for Muzan....well, technically Astaroth and Satanel are from his world so....
But the paradox itself has nothing to do with the will of people or the Throne god or freedom.
It is just a mechanical means to let Satanel access the throne, and completely unrelated to his desire.

Most importantly, despite the paradox, Satanel's world is a completely closed system. It was only breached by Snake who poped out from outside.
Your example only stands if Satanel's world breached internally.
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Old 2020-08-02, 05:56   Link #3418
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We actually have no idea where Snake came from apart as some parasite inside Lament at this point TBH
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Old 2020-08-02, 12:23   Link #3419
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Still doesn't change the fact the paradox has nothing to do the will of the people though.
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Old 2020-08-02, 12:31   Link #3420
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Actually seeing that Avesta Comiket book again.....Satanel's world might have been internally breached. He longed for a "what if she had lived" scenario. And we know Lament's people are bugs in Satanel's system. So NEET might have been an internal bug also.
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