Gundam 00 Mecha, Weapons, and Technology

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

Yes, I am. At least about the newbie part. Your more of a theorist like me.

You have to admit my theories are at least interesting.

I miss tanqexe, I wonder what happened to that guy? His theories are the best.

Are you saying you don't like my theories?

I give up, my jet nerdyness sucks.

Vertical Take-Off and Landing.

More info here.

[velocity7]

I'm just curious, would nuclear fusion power (not nuclear fission) have any relation or basis in how GN particles were generated in the first place?

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by velocity7

I'm just curious, would nuclear fusion power (not nuclear fission) have any relation or basis in how GN particles were generated in the first place?

I suppose it's possible they have been pretty vague on the details of what GN particles are outside of them being some sort of exotic particle. I know a few of the MS in Seed such as the Freedom used nuclear fusion and that it was the standard MS power source in GW.

[velocity7]

In the case of nuclear fission and fusion, both produce electricity through indirect means (e.g., fission boils water, producing steam to generate electric current). My current theory is that in one way or another, GN drives base their reactions off something very similar to that of nuclear fusion. The energy harnessed in the TD Blanket is likely to take advantage of the reactions and decay involved, and ends up producing GN particles (e.g., GN particles do not exist until after the TD Blanket has processed the energy created from the reaction).

Any electricity that is involved is likely from simply jump-starting the reaction, and any electricity produced through the GN drive is indirect through reactions involving the flywheel and GN particles themselves. Of course, this works against Tau Drives, which need electricity not only to jump-start, but to keep the said reaction going, as the lack of a TD Blanket means they can't produce GN particles at the same rate, let alone enough GN particles to provide a net zero or plus in electricity.

Addendum: In the case of Tau Twin Drive, it's very likely that electricity needs are higher to jump-start and maintain GN particle output high enough to keep synchronization between two drives. As a result, Tau Twin Drive Systems are inherently expensive and the maintenance costs far outweigh that of using a real Twin Drive System.

OT: I should note that in SEED, Freedom and other units that ran off nuclear fission did so via methods that bypassed the N-Jammer devices.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

You have to admit my theories are at least interesting.

I didnt say they weren't.

Originally Posted by velocity7

In the case of nuclear fission and fusion, both produce electricity through indirect means (e.g., fission boils water, producing steam to generate electric current). My current theory is that in one way or another, GN drives base their reactions off something very similar to that of nuclear fusion. The energy harnessed in the TD Blanket is likely to take advantage of the reactions and decay involved, and ends up producing GN particles (e.g., GN particles do not exist until after the TD Blanket has processed the energy created from the reaction).

Any electricity that is involved is likely from simply jump-starting the reaction, and any electricity produced through the GN drive is indirect through reactions involving the flywheel and GN particles themselves. Of course, this works against Tau Drives, which need electricity not only to jump-start, but to keep the said reaction going, as the lack of a TD Blanket means they can't produce GN particles at the same rate, let alone enough GN particles to provide a net zero or plus in electricity.

Addendum: In the case of Tau Twin Drive, it's very likely that electricity needs are higher to jump-start and maintain GN particle output high enough to keep synchronization between two drives. As a result, Tau Twin Drive Systems are inherently expensive and the maintenance costs far outweigh that of using a real Twin Drive System.

OT: I should note that in SEED, Freedom and other units that ran off nuclear fission did so via methods that bypassed the N-Jammer devices.

Considering they act a lot like stars with their use of a readily available energy source and their seemingly long if not infinite lifetime, they are likely some similarities with nuclear fusion theories of today. They are probably some extremities used though, since they involve using actual topological defects for it.

From what I've heard though, some very early sources seem to have stated that the GN Particles are byproduct of the energy generation mechanism of the GN Drive, so they are some similarities in there.
==================

Regarding jump starting Tau Drives, the only known units with confirmed onboard starters mechanisms are the Gundam Thrones. The GN-X series have been mentioned to have lack the ability to start themselves up at all without the use of those large base machines. The electricity in their case likely comes from the base rather than the mobile unit, but the flipside is that they likely cannot turn off their Drives completely while on field.

They may be some other Tau Units that have onboard starter mechanism but we have not received confirmation of any yet. I personally suspect Raphael is one of them, since it likely got charged on the Ptolemaios 2.

==================

Regarding the Tau Twin Drive, I'm personally theorizing that that the synchronizing process itself may require large amounts of energy, and since all burden of energy is on the in-system energy reserves of the mobile unit itself, it may have more operational limits than what an Original Twin Drive can achieve. We saw Reborns, but we only saw it for one battle and while it operated well in that one battle, we have no direct data about its operational time. In other words, pretty much exactly what your saying.

It may also play a factor in why Tieria chose to make Raphael a non Twin Drive suit, if this is indeed the case.

[velocity7]

I wonder what's actually used for the reactions? I imagine it's something that can be abundantly found on Earth (e.g., deuterium/tritium), otherwise the Tau Drive wouldn't exist.

After that, what would be needed for the TD Blanket versus what the Tau Drive uses?

[Kuroi Hadou]

Yay, finally this thread is actually looking alive again.

Originally Posted by velocity7

In the case of nuclear fission and fusion, both produce electricity through indirect means (e.g., fission boils water, producing steam to generate electric current). My current theory is that in one way or another, GN drives base their reactions off something very similar to that of nuclear fusion.

It's interesting you should mention that, because my personal theory on how a GN Drive works, which I've been meaning to post and based on tanqexe's, actually has the TD Blanket operating in two stages:

1) Topological defects (most likely monopoles) induce proton decay, resulting in the release of decay products that eventually release gamma rays.

2) Using solar panels to absorb the gamma rays, as tanqexe theorized, is actually considered an impractical method for converting gamma rays to energy, even accounting for future innovations. Instead, I believe they're actually using the proposed method for antimatter power plants, which also create power via gamma rays and is based off of nuclear rocket principles: Using the gamma rays to heat a working fluid that is then used to generate electricity via simple MHD.

The energy harnessed in the TD Blanket is likely to take advantage of the reactions and decay involved, and ends up producing GN particles (e.g., GN particles do not exist until after the TD Blanket has processed the energy created from the reaction).

Originally Posted by SonicSP

From what I've heard though, some very early sources seem to have stated that the GN Particles are byproduct of the energy generation mechanism of the GN Drive, so they are some similarities in there.

But the mechanics schematic of the 00's GN Drives shows a separate piece of machinery called a "GN Generation Furnace", leading me to believe that there's a separate mechanism entirely that creates the GN Particles, likely a particle accelerator specifically designed to induce photon-photon interaction.

Any electricity that is involved is likely from simply jump-starting the reaction, and any electricity produced through the GN drive is indirect through reactions involving the flywheel and GN particles themselves. Of course, this works against Tau Drives, which need electricity not only to jump-start, but to keep the said reaction going, as the lack of a TD Blanket means they can't produce GN particles at the same rate, let alone enough GN particles to provide a net zero or plus in electricity.

Addendum: In the case of Tau Twin Drive, it's very likely that electricity needs are higher to jump-start and maintain GN particle output high enough to keep synchronization between two drives. As a result, Tau Twin Drive Systems are inherently expensive and the maintenance costs far outweigh that of using a real Twin Drive System.

No arguments here, but tying in with the above: If it is photon-photon interaction, it would take massive amounts of energy to create the conditions necessary to do it, which only something like a TD Blanket can steadily provide. Since Tau Drives lack said device, they're incapable of maintaining those conditions for long periods of time.

Originally Posted by velocity7

I wonder what's actually used for the reactions? I imagine it's something that can be abundantly found on Earth (e.g., deuterium/tritium), otherwise the Tau Drive wouldn't exist.

Simple hydrogen-1, I believe.

After that, what would be needed for the TD Blanket versus what the Tau Drive uses?

There's a fringe theory rolling around in the back of my head that Tau Drives are actually using a store of antimatter to generate the gamma rays for conversion to energy, which would explain their limited operation time.

[fizzmaister]

Originally Posted by velocity7

My current theory is that in one way or another, GN drives base their reactions off something very similar to that of nuclear fusion. The energy harnessed in the TD Blanket is likely to take advantage of the reactions and decay involved, and ends up producing GN particles (e.g., GN particles do not exist until after the TD Blanket has processed the energy created from the reaction).

I'm one of the proponents of the proton decay theory of GN Drive operation. I believe that the TD blanket is the container for a/several Topological Defect(s), specifically, magnetic monopoles. What magnetic monopoles can do is catalyze the decay of baryonic matter, specifically protons, into other particles (namely GN particles and probably some byproducts) and energy. The energy from this should be the same for each reaction and in the form of a gamma ray. This is collected by something specifically tuned to the frequency of the gamma ray.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by velocity7

I wonder what's actually used for the reactions? I imagine it's something that can be abundantly found on Earth (e.g., deuterium/tritium), otherwise the Tau Drive wouldn't exist.

After that, what would be needed for the TD Blanket versus what the Tau Drive uses?

I'm no geologist but I think we may include the asteroids in the possible list too since they are an abundant source of material mining in the 00 World. I dunno whether there's anything there you cannot find on Earth though, like I said I have zero geology and chemistry knowledge.

Could even be a composite material for all we know.

But........I dunno whether this is a mistake by the novel or not but in Novel 1, it was mentioned that one of the reasons why GN Drives is hard to make is because some materials required to make it is only found in Jupiter.

Would be funny if those "materials" turns out to be topological defects however.

Novel 2 and a few other sources mention the need for a high gravity environment. This could be a separate requirement than the "some things are only in Jupiter though.

I dunno much about topological defects specifically, so I cannot talk about the monopoles. But I think tanqexe was one of the magnetic monopole proponents.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

But the mechanics schematic of the 00's GN Drives shows a separate piece of machinery called a "GN Generation Furnace", leading me to believe that there's a separate mechanism entirely that creates the GN Particles, likely a particle accelerator specifically designed to induce photon-photon interaction.

For one thing, I'm not sure we know whether they're separate in reality, it could be two sections that are always glued together, forming the "core" so to speak.

I cannot remember the exact source (I suspect its CA's 300 Years Book Later translation though) but I recall that it mentions that GN Drives continuously produce GN Particles all the time. If we were to liberally take all the time, as even when they're stripped to the core (IE which include the Generation Furnace is what I'm implying) than it would mean that the furnace could be a place to facilitate the byproducts of the GN Particles that come out naturally from the reaction. The early source I mentioned was translated by Mark I think but I want to track it down specifically as well.

That and of course, the word "furnace" is in there which makes me suspect that its part of the core since solar furnace can exist and change Chassis and keep being referred to the same unit as far as language used in the anime is concerned.

I wish I can retrack some of the early Mechatalk threads, there's bound to be some info there. However the Mechatalk search engine is non-functioning practically (to say it in a nice way).

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

I'm no geologist but I think we may include the asteroids in the possible list too since they are an abundant source of material mining in the 00 World. I dunno whether there's anything there you cannot find on Earth though, like I said I have zero geology and chemistry knowledge.

Could even be a composite material for all we know.

Like I said: It's most likely simple hydrogen-1. Either that, or GN Drives are actually designed to break down any form of baryonic matter.

I dunno whether this is a mistake by the novel or not but in Novel 1, it was mentioned that one of the reasons why GN Drives is hard to make is because some materials required to make it is only found in Jupiter.

Would be funny if those "materials" turns out to be topological defects however.

Novel 2 and a few other sources mention the need for a high gravity environment. This could be a separate requirement than the "some things are only in Jupiter though.

My personal theory is that the high gravity of Jupiter is simply the most likely place to find topological defects.

For one thing, I'm not sure we know whether they're separate in reality, it could be two sections that are always glued together, forming the "core" so to speak.

I cannot remember the exact source (I suspect its CA's 300 Years Book Later translation though) but I recall that it mentions that GN Drives continuously produce GN Particles all the time. If we were to liberally take all the time, as even when they're stripped to the core (IE which include the Generation Furnace is what I'm implying) than it would mean that the furnace could be a place to facilitate the byproducts of the GN Particles that come out naturally from the reaction. The early source I mentioned was translated by Mark I think but I want to track it down specifically as well.

They don't have to be separate; a direct link from the feed of energy would be the most beneficial design from an engineering standpoint.

I cannot remember the exact source (I suspect its CA's 300 Years Book Later translation though) but I recall that it mentions that GN Drives continuously produce GN Particles all the time. If we were to liberally take all the time, as even when they're stripped to the core (IE which include the Generation Furnace is what I'm implying) than it would mean that the furnace could be a place to facilitate the byproducts of the GN Particles that come out naturally from the reaction.

Just because they continually produce them doesn't mean they're a natural byproduct of the energy generation process. It would be child's play to build the GN Drives to operate at a continuous rate, which seems to be what was done. Once you get a reaction like the one I'm talking about going, it's going to be really hard to stop and not exactly beneficial to do so.

I wish I can retrack some of the early Mechatalk threads, there's bound to be some info there. However the Mechatalk search engine is non-functioning practically (to say it in a nice way).

See what you can dig up; the more official confirmation the better.

[Synica]

I'm almost positive that no form of nuclear fusion of fission is involved in production of the GN particles. Every time that a nuclear fission reaction or the materials involved in that type of reaction is mentioned any time in the series, it is done so with immense disdain and refered to as a 'relic' of the old age, IE something they killed off and burried and would very much like to see it kept that way. On top of that, the materials required for a fusion reaction are never mentioned, nor is fusion reaction itself ever mentioned. I can't remember any hints or references to Helium-3 at all, and I find it difficult to believe they would use fusion with the solar energy rings in use.

I don't think the UN would have so readily adopted Celestial Being's technology or at least they would have modified it enough that nuclear reactions were no longer involved, or failing that, some mention of it would have been made in the series.

I almost believe the reaction within the solar furnace would be simmilar in concept to a star (as if the name wasn't a big enough clue. :P ): Immense pressure, gravity and heat forced onto sufficient mass of the fuel of choice, possibly a gas ultra condensed until it ignited, with a constant input flow of new gas and an outward flow of plasma and light. Obviously, you don't just start and stop a burning star, which might explain the name of the furnace and why it's not a good thing to start and stop. How it gets converted into GN Particles I don't know, but the plasma wouldn't be too hard to convert into straight electrical current.

[velocity7]

Just so you know, plasma is one of the components in nuclear fusion.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Synica

I'm almost positive that no form of nuclear fusion of fission is involved in production of the GN particles. Every time that a nuclear fission reaction or the materials involved in that type of reaction is mentioned any time in the series, it is done so with immense disdain and refered to as a 'relic' of the old age, IE something they killed off and burried and would very much like to see it kept that way. On top of that, the materials required for a fusion reaction are never mentioned, nor is fusion reaction itself ever mentioned. I can't remember any hints or references to Helium-3 at all, and I find it difficult to believe they would use fusion with the solar energy rings in use.

I don't think the UN would have so readily adopted Celestial Being's technology or at least they would have modified it enough that nuclear reactions were no longer involved, or failing that, some mention of it would have been made in the series.

I almost believe the reaction within the solar furnace would be simmilar in concept to a star (as if the name wasn't a big enough clue. :P ): Immense pressure, gravity and heat forced onto sufficient mass of the fuel of choice, possibly a gas ultra condensed until it ignited, with a constant input flow of new gas and an outward flow of plasma and light. Obviously, you don't just start and stop a burning star, which might explain the name of the furnace and why it's not a good thing to start and stop. How it gets converted into GN Particles I don't know, but the plasma wouldn't be too hard to convert into straight electrical current.

This is why I personally believe that GN Particle Production is completely separate from energy generation.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Sorry for the double post, but I was re-watching season two again, and in the first episode one of Katharon's Space Flags used it's defense rod to block shots from a GN-XIII's GN Lance.

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

It's a Realdo space type, not a Flag.

And yes, it certainly did block a shot, and looked AOK right after. Not like Graham's Flag in Season 1, where the damn thing melted.

[kakakka]

It did? I when was it? I remember Graham's Flag taking on Dynames pistol shots.

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

Originally Posted by kakakka

It did? I when was it? I remember Graham's Flag taking on Dynames pistol shots.

Yep, you're right, it blocked a wave of blasts, and then afterward, the defense rod was damn near liquid.

[kakakka]

Couldn't remember the aftermath of that ><

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Sorry for the double post, but I was re-watching season two again, and in the first episode one of Katharon's Space Flags used it's defense rod to block shots from a GN-XIII's GN Lance.

Yes, and its not a one time God-given miraculous event either. According to a low plot importance Anti Federation pilot in 00F, a defence rod timed perfectly at a specific angle can deflect/block beam shots.

Originally Posted by GN0010 Nosferatu

It's a Realdo space type, not a Flag.

And yes, it certainly did block a shot, and looked AOK right after. Not like Graham's Flag in Season 1, where the damn thing melted.

My theory is that the Realdo in S201 timed the rod and the angle perfectly to deflect the shot while Graham did not. Graham may have had the less than perfect blocking angle since he was at closer range and had to defend a multitude of them from a beam weapon specializing at close range. His rod may have had decently survive despite the imperfect blocking angle due to the black anti beam coating. It is possible that it may have damaged even worst if it did not have the beam countermeasures.

Originally Posted by kakakka

It did? I when was it? I remember Graham's Flag taking on Dynames pistol shots.

It was during the Azadistan arc. Episode 12 if I'm not mistaken.

[kakakka]

After checking it, I kinda smiled how inconsistent they showed it. Right after deflecting the shots, the defense rod was okay, then later when the Flag flew, it shows some dent on the defense rod.