Log Horizon S2 - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[DQueenie13]

But actually I have a question from last episode. How are there still people under level 30? Did they just completely give up on fighting monsters and stay in production guilds or something?

[Krono]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

But actually I have a question from last episode. How are there still people under level 30? Did they just completely give up on fighting monsters and stay in production guilds or something?

Probably. Going out and fighting monsters is a scary, painful, messy business, that not everyone is willing to do, even if death is merely unpleasant rather than a real risk. Until everyone is at the level cap, there will always be a market for the EXP pots, and joining a guild where you can get income without having to leave town would be desirable.

The lower level characters in Shiroe's guild might actually be somewhat abnormal in their determination to level up as fast as they have. Most of them have a strong incentive to level up to max so that higher level players can't abuse them again.

[Yan3242]

What i wonder about those leechers is, are they actually realized that they are leeching? As in in purpose? Or they dont want to leech but has no other way to do but leech?

Because if it the latter, why not just make them work? Employ them to gather material, craft, simple protection group for low level area(100% no dying risk), or travel no neighbor area for trading and such, off course give them rewards and some satisfactory rating to brighten their morale or something.

[mastermind3342]

is this what they mean by turning point? if so i am curious what will they do to solve this problem....this problem maybe necesesary factor for future plot...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Yan3242

So basically they are just lazy unmotivated bunch? They keep sulking and sulking looking at those "comfort" group while keep saying "why?"

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

I think Jan-Poo was trying to say that they're not necessarily lazy, it's that even if/when they tried working, there was no benefit from it because those who had the advantages first milked it for all they had.

As DQueenie said, notice that nobody talked about "leechers" in the assembly, just people that either didn't acquire any teachings nor managed to get special recipes. That's the issue.

Moreover Honesty first proposal wasn't to give free money but to make public those things, and if they were to do that, no one would get any benefit unless they put them to fruition by working.

Of course publicizing the teachings was a naive idea since they work only for the person who learned, but giving more information about them could help, we have seen how hard it was for Akatsuki to get one precisely because she had no idea how to get it.

The problem of the new crafting recipes then is a very complicated issue. They have stated that it is basically a trial and error system. That means a certain investment is required in order to find one. The three major crafting guilds are probably trying various combinations and the materials involved are probably costly and rare. An error would result in a complete loss of said materials, but that loss is compensated if in the end you get something new that you can sell as the sole provider.

But that's something that only someone who is rich to begin with can do. You need someone who can afford an initial loss and the three major guilds have no problems with that. For someone with just a moderate amount of money an initial loss would mean wasting all his funds and then he wouldn't even have enough money to buy new materials to try a new recipe.

It's the same old story, who has money can make even more money, and the more they become rich, the more they will get money.

But at the same time the major three guilds are not willing to publicize their findings, precisely because they have invested money in them and they don't think it would be fair they wouldn't get a return on that, especially because that would likely remove their motivation to experiment.

This is not a simple issue to solve, if it was Shiroe would have found a solution already.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Nah, "real food" became for sure naturaly pretty cheap by now, not mention every bigger guild have at least one cook and it's members have either food for free or with discount. But even without it it's nothing that couldn't be solved by few low level mobs.

How do you even know what's the cost of that food? But even supposing that it's true that it's cheap, then it's even less of a problem to provide it for everyone.

[Tenzen12]

It's obviously not costy because you simply can't keep prizes hight without monopol or rare ingrediences. And I don't know why you assume leechers doesn't eat normal food in first place. It's safe asume noone eats system food anymore in city.

Eins is far from objective here, his guild didn't obtained any teaching and has large amount of leechers. That's why he taking their perspective and despite that when Izac said even if they recieve recipes, money or teaching it will not make them work hard, he couldn't refute.

Problem isn't in circumistances but in people who simply can't adapt to new society, Eins himself admited that much.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It's obviously not costy because you simply can't keep prizes hight without monopol or rare ingrediences.

You have at least three workers you need to pay for the food, the hunters, the crafters and the merchants. People simply aren't going to work for free and if the price is too low they will rather go work in some other field.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And I don't know why you assume leechers doesn't eat normal food in first place. It's safe asume noone eats system food anymore in city.

Provided they have the money. By the way a leecher is by definition someone who gets a benefit without contributing. It's not the leechers the issue here, but rather those who aren't in a big guild like Honesty where they can leech off their fellow guild members.

Eins is not quite concerned about his own leechers not getting enough, but rather the fact that if the RT doesn't do anything about the less wealthy more and more of those people will join Honesty, because of the guild's own social policies.

That's basically the issue that was brought up by that brief exchange of the Honesty higher ups. They are getting too many leechers and the most working members of the guild can't put up with that if that keeps on.

Eins therefore can only see two possible solutions. Either he changes his own guild policies and kicks leechers away (which is what his advisors suggested) or he makes it so his policies will be extended to the whole Akiba so the burden of dealing with leechers won't end up on his shoulders alone.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Eins is far from objective here, his guild didn't obtained any teaching and has large amount of leechers. That's why he taking their perspective and despite that when Izac said even if they recieve recipes, money or teaching it will not make them work hard, he couldn't refute.

Problem isn't in circumistances but in people who simply can't adapt to new society, Eins himself admited that much.

It's not like the merchant guild leaders are more objective though, they are clearly the ones who will get damaged by making their recipes public or that the wealth will be redistributed.

The fact remains that Akiba is facing a problem and Eins is the one who brought that up because he is the one who is more directly being affected by it.

Sure he could start kicking people like every other guild does, but would that make the problem go away? Would the leechers start working or simply become poor?

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You have at least three workers you need to pay for the food, the hunters, the crafters and the merchants. People simply aren't going to work for free and if the price is too low they will rather go work in some other field.

Yet there is several tens of stales and restaurant and seems prosper just fine. If one can't afford costy food, they can just buy cheap fastfood.

Provided they have the money. By the way a leecher is by definition someone who gets a benefit without contributing. It's not the leechers the issue here, but rather those who aren't in a big guild like Honesty where they can leech off their fellow guild members.

Nah, Leechers are issue enough to Eins bring it here. It doesn't really metter if they leech or just laze around, reasons behind it are same only difference is later doesn't cause Eins headache.

Eins is not quite concerned about his own leechers not getting enough, but rather the fact that if the RT doesn't do anything about the less wealthy more and more of those people will join Honesty, because of the guild's own social policies.

That's basically the issue that was brought up by that brief exchange of the Honesty higher ups. They are getting too many leechers and the most working members of the guild can't put up with that if that keeps on.

Eins therefore can only see two possible solutions. Either he changes his own guild policies and kicks leechers away (which is what his advisors suggested) or he makes it so his policies will be extended to the whole Akiba so the burden of dealing with leechers won't end up on his shoulders alone.

Yeah that's what Eins want, have RT solve his problems without loosing face. Of course as Shiroe said there have to be something done, but neo communism is not solution.

It's not like the merchant guild leaders are more objective though, they are clearly the ones who will get damaged by making their recipes public or that the wealth will be redistributed.

The fact remains that Akiba is facing a problem and Eins is the one who brought that up because he is the one who is more directly being affected by it.

Sure he could start kicking people like every other guild does, but would that make the problem go away? Would the leechers start working or simply become poor?

Merchant guilds are aware how much of work is involved in creation of something. So far all they point were correct. NOTHING that was mentioned on conference would solve situation

What they need is make these leecher and co. integrate into society, which is not easy problem in real word with long estabished systems. Unfortunely just forcing them work is not option...

[eiyuuou]

If buying cheap fastfood will solve the problem, Eins would not have a headache but he does, meaning the leechers either want more than they are willing to work for (like eating Lv 90 Roc omelette than a cheap bird omelette) or they simply drain the guild resources.

People work by crafting, cooking, tailoring, killing mobs, trading, etc to gain money.
If they don't work in some way, how will they even stop leeching?
Even Crescent Moon can get by without needing bigger guild support and their solution is by getting the members involved in various ways.

[DQueenie13]

I think a big part of the problem, at least for Eins, is that he's not charismatic or forceful enough to get people to work. We've seen from last episode that Eins isn't cut out to lead a guild the way Krusty, Isaac, or William do (and even William, at least, had most of his members quit raiding or leave the guild entirely, although the ones that quit raiding still took up quests). Crescent Moon is a small guild so it's easier to get its members to participate because there's less people to deal with, alongside the fact that Maryelle's personality just gets people to cooperate with her.

D.D.D.'s organization probably allowed it to sustain itself even with leechers. However, since Krusty disappeared, a substantial number of those leechers decided to move into Honesty, which doesn't have the same structure and setup as D.D.D. and isn't designed to compensate for people that don't work. On top of that, Honesty is probably the only Round Table guild that's taking the brunt of the leecher problem because they're probably seen as the only 'alternative'. Black Sword has the level 85+ rule still in place, guys don't like West Wind because Souji harem is too stronk, the production guilds are all about working, and small guilds expect you to pull your own weight because they can't compete with the production guilds otherwise.

Eins doesn't have the mental fortitude to tell the leechers to start working or leave, and views that as abandoning them, so the other guild masters might see that as a problem he's caused for himself. But by the same token, if the Round Table forces leechers to work or leave, there's no saying that they couldn't just travel to Minami and potentially give information to Plant Hwyaden out of spite.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

If buying cheap fastfood will solve the problem, Eins would not have a headache but he does, meaning the leechers either want more than they are willing to work for (like eating Lv 90 Roc omelette than a cheap bird omelette) or they simply drain the guild resources.

People work by crafting, cooking, tailoring, killing mobs, trading, etc to gain money.
If they don't work in some way, how will they even stop leeching?
Even Crescent Moon can get by without needing bigger guild support and their solution is by getting the members involved in various ways.

Food isn't issue, even low level adventurers unaffilated with any guild can be regular customer of food stale without anyone even blinking an eye. We saw that much. Actually I don't think anyone care what leechers has for dinner. Problem is they are not productive.

Yeah assuming most guid feed their members, some of them might feel any kind of work unecessary, but it's not necessarily most relevant issue regarding leeching.

[Jan-Poo]

I pretty much agree with anything that DQueenie13 said.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yet there is several tens of stales and restaurant and seems prosper just fine. If one can't afford costy food, they can just buy cheap fastfood.

As a matter of facts there is cheap food, it's the one that doesn't have any taste and that anyone can prepare.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yeah that's what Eins want, have RT solve his problems without loosing face. Of course as Shiroe said there have to be something done, but neo communism is not solution.

Of course Eins has his own personal reasons, but it's not just his problem, it's Akiba's problem. If anything try to give Shiroe a bit of credit, he wouldn't be so worried about that if that was just a single guild's issue.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Actually I don't think anyone care what leechers has for dinner. Problem is they are not productive.

I didn't get that impression from Eins, he doesn't really seem to think that they should definitely do something to make lazy people work, he seems to just think that people like that simply exist and that they need to do something about them and not simply leave them to their own devices.

And yes in that he is decidedly alone, whether it's his own advisors or the members of the RT they all rather want those people to work. It was also pretty much stated that there's a general sentiment of hostility towards leechers in the whole Akiba.


Anyway if you think about it it's not really that surprising that they have problems of that sort, these are all MMORPG players, and while not all MMORPG players are drop out, NEET or hikki, there's certainly a higher concentration of them there than in a normal population.

As long as it was a game they could dedicate themselves fully to it, but Elder Tales is becoming slowly more and more like a real world than the fantasy world it was supposed to be.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Yan3242

So basically they are just lazy unmotivated bunch? They keep sulking and sulking looking at those "comfort" group while keep saying "why?"

I think for a good chunk of the problem adventurer's it is more that they are suffering from depression.

The Round Table is full of hardcore players, as in general are their guilds and Honesty's internal problems seem to involve the Hardcore side wanting to kick out the less active.

Which has the problem that Ein's thinks he needs numbers to keep Honesty's memebership of the Round Table.

But for the casual players stuck in the game things are worse. Our major characters are in general happier in the game than not but for people with major ties outside the inherent situation is bad, no way home and no prospect of it and having the more visceral combat experience. You can't even comit suicide. And their life is more grind than it was in the game, thanks to the time differences.

It's why Marielle was unhappy at the beginning. She's been trying to help the casuals cope (Not suprising since Crescent Moon was a social guild) both with the festivals and the training camps. But there is only so much she can do.

What they need to do is to inspire the less happy to action, which is at odds with the frequently traditional kick them out of the guild approach.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Of course Eins has his own personal reasons, but it's not just his problem, it's Akiba's problem. If anything try to give Shiroe a bit of credit, he wouldn't be so worried about that if that was just a single guild's issue.

Of course it is issue noone said otherwise, but it's not issue because "leechers" are troubled, but because they are causing trouble. And it will become worse as gap between working class and lazing class grows more.

I didn't get that impression from Eins, he doesn't really seem to think that they should definitely do something to make lazy people work, he seems to just think that people like that simply exist and that they need to do something about them and not simply leave them to their own devices.

And yes in that he is decidedly alone, whether it's his own advisors or the members of the RT they all rather want those people to work. It was also pretty much stated that there's a general sentiment of hostility towards leechers in the whole Akiba.

Eins simply don't have clue what should be done, that's why he throws in nonsensial ideas that just asking to be shot down on spot. Plus he does feed and provide hunting spot for members of his guild already which clearly isn't enough.

He also explicitly stated why he doesn't kick them out: Because having less member would mean weakening his position on RT conference. He is not protector of the weak but of his own little piece of cake, otherwise he would take steps in his own guild first. I am not saying he is bad person, but he is too occupied with own troubles to thing about others.

As I said before real problem is that there is lot of maladjusted people, giving them money or recepts would make situation only worse. So yeah, advisors and RT is right on that matter, What is needed is not make them work, but make them WANT work and everyone on confrence are aware of that, especialy Marielle shows lot of effort from begenning adress that and it's thanks to these efforts lot of people did adapted into new society until this point.

EDIT: That said considering, difficulty of problem, it might be impossible solve it by carrot and stick will be only option left

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Of course it is issue noone said otherwise, but it's not issue because "leechers" are troubled, but because they are causing trouble. And it will become worse as gap between working class and lazing class grows more.

How would they be a problem if you simply prevented them from leeching and left them to their own devices? It would only be a problem if you gave a damn about them, which some people do apparently.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Eins simply don't have clue what should be done, that's why he throws in nonsensial ideas that just asking to be shot down on spot.

I've actually put some thought regarding the recipes, and is the request to make them public really that nonsensical?

Of course if you took it from a real world perspective you'd probably think so, but from a gaming perspective, when you consider how fast information spread through the internet, just how much do you think it would take before a crafting recipe is discovered to the day where it is publicly made available to everyone?

I can think of several situation in MMORPGs where people could benefit by keeping their discoveries secret and certainly many people do, but then there's always someone who decides to publicize them, and it only takes one person.

This applies to secret recipes, or to secret hunting spots, or to hidden quests and more often strategies to kill powerful end game monsters.
The current situation in Akiba could be simply the result of a lesser degree of information spread due to the sudden lack of internet.

In the end the recipe issue comes down to a matter of intellectual property. If you think that's communism, then every kind of file sharing is. Not like nobody ever suggested that.

[Tenzen12]

1) One thing is they are leeching, that could be solved by leaving them by device. Other is that wouldn't stop class gap from growing and soon nor uvaoidable class conflict. Not mention just having them around affect overal morale in Akiba

2)Yeah it's nonsensial, It's not Elder Tale anymore, it's their reality. If it you want threat it as mere game, there is no reason to deal with leacher at all, nor creating RT conference, but That wouldn't fly. Current situation of Akiba is result of thousand people being dragged out of their homes into different world without return ticket (and lot of them were probalby NEETs even in RL).

[Ickarium]

In general, I think there are three issues intertwined here.

#1: Those who seriously are having mental issues due to being away from home and family in a totally new world. Possibly exacerbated if they were shut-ins to start.

#2: Those who simply do not like their options. Really, the two options are 'crafting' or 'killing things'. There are people who do not like the first option who also are not comfortable with the pain (even if lessened) and possible memory loss of the second. There are people who stopped adventuring altogether.

#3: The 'real' leechers. Lazy buggers who just want to have fun, and now that killing stuff has pain that's not fun. So they don't do anything. These are likely the ones Eins mentioned who got pouty with Mariel's parties because of envy.

They have to be careful to deal well with the first two without alienating them, while kicking #3 to the curb or encouraging them to actually do something.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

In general, I think there are three issues intertwined here.

#1: Those who seriously are having mental issues due to being away from home and family in a totally new world. Possibly exacerbated if they were shut-ins to start.

Are there any actual therapists or even support groups for these folks? I know Mariel means well, but having fun events isn't really enough

#2: Those who simply do not like their options. Really, the two options are 'crafting' or 'killing things'. There are people who do not like the first option who also are not comfortable with the pain (even if lessened) and possible memory loss of the second. There are people who stopped adventuring altogether.

Maybe the Round table can try to encourage people finding alternate work oppurtunities. Like how governments try to encourage small businesses.

#3: The 'real' leechers. Lazy buggers who just want to have fun, and now that killing stuff has pain that's not fun. So they don't do anything. These are likely the ones Eins mentioned who got pouty with Mariel's parties because of envy.

They have to be careful to deal well with the first two without alienating them, while kicking #3 to the curb or encouraging them to actually do something.

I think the third group is the one they need to be most careful of.

Most of the leechers are probably low level casuals, right? I don't doubt there are some who don't like the fact that it's the high level folks with lots of previous experience that are basically running Akiba. They could cause real trouble if left alone.

I think they should focus on the second group, who can probably help out with dealing with the third, since they should be intertwined to some point.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Maybe the Round table can try to encourage people finding alternate work oppurtunities. Like how governments try to encourage small businesses.

the 2nd group can join the 8th street shopping guild. they are call a crafting guild but mostly deal with business side of things for ocean(craft) and rodrick (research).

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

In general, I think there are three issues intertwined here.

#1: Those who seriously are having mental issues due to being away from home and family in a totally new world. Possibly exacerbated if they were shut-ins to start.

#2: Those who simply do not like their options. Really, the two options are 'crafting' or 'killing things'. There are people who do not like the first option who also are not comfortable with the pain (even if lessened) and possible memory loss of the second. There are people who stopped adventuring altogether.

#3: The 'real' leechers. Lazy buggers who just want to have fun, and now that killing stuff has pain that's not fun. So they don't do anything. These are likely the ones Eins mentioned who got pouty with Mariel's parties because of envy.

They have to be careful to deal well with the first two without alienating them, while kicking #3 to the curb or encouraging them to actually do something.

I think that's pretty good analysis, with exception of n.2. There is always farming or service option. For example Serara has maid(?) subclass. cooking cleaning making errands, big guilds require all these