(L) Freezing [Manga]

[GendoAizenPig]

Which means she's from a different dimension with it's own set of Satellizer, Gengo, etc, and Nova. I mean if she's from the dimension Kazuya and co. are in shouldn't there be Nova that don't have to jump dimensions and are already there. If there are numerous Maria Lancelots then there have to be numerous groups of Nova as well. It's a really strange situation.

I mean if the Nova are coming from Elca, why are they after a Maria from a different dimension then theirs? Why is Maria the betrayer of Nova from a dimension she's not even from?

[DragonOsman]

No, that's probably not it. I think Maria Lancelot may have originally been a part of the Transcendental Will. Elca doesn't seem to be a part of it, but there does seem to be a link because Maria Elca Nova seems to know what the Will wants. We don't even know if there are other Satellizers and such in all of the other dimensions. And the Nova come from Elca, but their true identity is the impure vessels that the Rounders "purify" (in quotes because it's not really purification).

And are the Nova on Earth after Maria Lancelot? I forget.

[GendoAizenPig]

Yeah they were. That was the whole point of the first major Nova Attack of the series. They were tracking her like a beacon under West Genetics. I'd argue they pretty much followed her to Earth to begin with as well. I mean she was ,for a while, fighting them alone.

On top of that the Maria Clones in Alaska made Nova appear. It just doesn't make sense that the Nova are only coming from Elca. Unless this Maria hails from there as well.

It has gotten pretty convoluted.

[DragonOsman]

We don't know enough yet. But I still think that the Nova only come from Elca. The Transcendental Will is behind all of this and Maria Lancelot betrayed it.

[Culaio]

@GendoAizenPig

I would agree with you that gengo isnt planing kazuya to replace his dad in his plans if not for the fact that that not that long ago(in the story, in chapters it was quite a while ago) gengo said something a long the line of "just as I planned" when he saw kazuya and Satellizer relationship growing so even now he is trying to direct kazuya's relationship(not sure what he is trying to achieve but still it shows he is still willing to use his family to achieve certain goals).

but yeah in current arc like you said it doesnt look like Gengo is still trying to do that plan which kinda makes his actions inconsistent with his previous actions but I think its mostly author's fault, he seem not to know if he wants him to be manipulative asshole or good guy(or mix of both).
inconsistency also shows with how much Gengo knows, to current arc it was multiple times shown that Gengo knows what is goal of nova, why they are invading earth but in current arc we found out that he actually has no idea, and kazuya is supposed to find that out.
This makes no sense since why and how gengo was able to predict so much stuff happening and prepare so many things to fight stuff that is coming, I mean when humanoid nova showed up he reacted something like this: "its too soon, they shouldnt show up yet!" which implies he know they will be coming but, how he can know that without even knowing what are nova and why they are invading....

In current arc we find out that nova arent invading forces which makes Gengo predicting so much impossible...(unless something is manipulating him to do what he does...)

[DragonOsman]

He's probably fine with Kazuya being with Satellizer because it's still in line with his plans. That could be why he isn't getting in the way of their relationship.

And he might know something about the origin of the Nova, even if he doesn't know everything.

[Culaio]

I dont really buy that Gengo is such nice guy as manga was trying to make him look, I mean Arcadia is his granddaughter too but he threats her like his top secret weapon and not granddaughter, her designation is stamped on the left side of her face as well as on her left bicep, this isnt something you do to someone you view as person...

[DragonOsman]

He's using her as a weapon, but I don't think we know what he thinks of her personally. And we also don't know Arcadia herself thinks.

Also, Gengo may have some skeletons in the closet (well, lots), but who doesn't? And it's the Chevalier's business to misunderstand him. We're supposed to know that he doesn't mean as much harm as they think he does and that he isn't as bad as they think he is.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

He's using her as a weapon, but I don't think we know what he thinks of her personally. And we also don't know Arcadia herself thinks.

Also, Gengo may have some skeletons in the closet (well, lots), but who doesn't? And it's the Chevalier's business to misunderstand him. We're supposed to know that he doesn't mean as much harm as they think he does and that he isn't as bad as they think he is.

well from what we saw about Gengo I would say that he wants to protect humanity but at the same time can be total douche about it(including to his family), he is very arrogant thinking only he can be trusted with saving humanity, and more then once he shown he frequently cant understand other people including his family(he is completly responsible for death of his son Ryuuichi, if he at least tried to understand what his son feels after he lost his wife his son would be still alive) .

[DragonOsman]

^Well, yeah, that's true. I won't deny that.

[GendoAizenPig]

I think what it comes down to is the author wasn't sure where he was going with the Nova and once it was figured out some things aren't adding up. The story started with the Nova wanting to get to the holy corpse (i.e. Maria Lancelot), but now we've learned that they were sent there from a dimension that has its own Maria Lancelot. I still don't understand where the holy corpse is from and why she came to Earth to warn humanity about something coming from a dimension she's not from. How did she even know what was going on in Elca? Why does she care what happens to Earth? Is Earth important in some way to the fate of all dimensions?

In which chapter/chapters is the Transcendental Will talked about? I'd really like to refresh my memory on it.

Also Gengo has a god complex and is an asshole. I don't really see how anyone could argue that.
Suna even thought he was a psychopath (like she is) because of how big of a prick he is if you remember correctly.

[Alhazad2003]

I don't doubt that Gengo has gone mad in his bid to save the world. Though as stated earlier, the writer's inconsistencies are becoming more and more apparent. At one point, it's stated that Gengo wants to preserve humanity, by making a small band of super soldiers (the Pandora) so humanity could remain itself. Then he sees how flawed the Pandora project is and seeks to replace it with the Valkyries. Then he claims he seeks to delay the Novas' judgment of humanity as long as possible, knowing it won't change the outcome. And then, he claims his whole goal is to make all humanity have stigma bodies so they can fight the Nova together (which would render the Valkyries null and void and contradicts what we thought was his original goal).

And the inconsistencies don't stop there. First we see that Ouka was Kazuya's fiancee, which Gengo himself arranged. Then we see he approves of Kazuya being with Satellizer? Then after showing what happened to Orie, we realize that Ouka has no future with Kazuya. So what was the point of making her his fiancee? Seriously, all these contradictions make my head hurt sometimes.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

I think what it comes down to is the author wasn't sure where he was going with the Nova and once it was figured out some things aren't adding up. The story started with the Nova wanting to get to the holy corpse (i.e. Maria Lancelot), but now we've learned that they were sent there from a dimension that has its own Maria Lancelot. I still don't understand where the holy corpse is from and why she came to Earth to warn humanity about something coming from a dimension she's not from. How did she even know what was going on in Elca? Why does she care what happens to Earth? Is Earth important in some way to the fate of all dimensions?

In which chapter/chapters is the Transcendental Will talked about? I'd really like to refresh my memory on it.

Also Gengo has a god complex and is an asshole. I don't really see how anyone could argue that.
Suna even thought he was a psychopath (like she is) because of how big of a prick he is if you remember correctly.

Dont forget that Maria lancelot herself is a nova as its confirmed by the fact that her children and grandchildren have stigmatic bodies, and the more stigmatic body you have the more nova-like you are.

I dont remember where it was talked about transcendental will, I am pretty sure it was talked about few times in the story, I think it was mentioned somewhat when some of pandora Transcendent, dont remember which chapter it was.

Well lately manga is trying to make gengo look like nice guy, like when he said that when he saw kazuha die he contemplate suicide and stuff like that...

[RedBlueBlack]

If memory serves, Maria Lancelot didn't exactly explain anything to Gengo. She inserted "pure information" into his mind and he had to work with that. I assume all he saw were flashes of images and probably like blue prints for making Stigmata.

I've said this before but I'm actually pretty happy with how the author has written Gengo. Originally it looked like he was just going to be a typical smarmy chess master who wanted to rule the world. I'm glad the author gave him more depth.

Edit: As for the inconsistencies in Gengo's approach to saving mankind, can't time explain that? Like it's not crazy to say that Gengo's strategy in 2065 is different than his old strategy in 2050.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Culaio

Yeah exactly, this Maria Lancelot (non Elca) is a nova which means not all Nova come from Elca.

All I remember about transcendental will was when Rana, Suna, and Sawatari talked about a voice telling them destroy. I don't remember anything else. That's what is confusing me.

Gengo only seems to care when it's convenient for him. He didn't want the Chevalier dissecting Kazuha, but he had no qualms with treating his daughter in law like garbage and his son (and grandson) like pawns. He also didn't really seem all that sad about Chiffon dying until her sisters were woken back up. He's complicated, but still quite the awful person.

@RedBlueBlack

Yeah that's how I remember it too. She sorta shot snippets into his mind.

I'm also really happy about his character. I just don't think he's a good person at all.

I don't personally have any issues with his plans. It's more issues with how the manga portrayed him to know exactly what was going on at first and now it's like he doesn't have a clue. It's just strange.

[DragonOsman]

@GendoAizenPig: As Culaio said (about Maria Lancelot). She seems different from the Maria in Elca, but she's still a Nova. And remember that she helped Kazuya get to Elca. She's related somehow, and she had Gengo send Kazuya there because she wanted him to know the truth, as well as the way to save mankind.

@RedBlueBlack: Good point about the time. And you're right about the "pure information" part, too.

Edit: One post late.

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

I don't personally have any issues with his plans. It's more issues with how the manga portrayed him to know exactly what was going on at first and now it's like he doesn't have a clue. It's just strange.

I think you've already given the answer for this, yourself. You and RedBlueBlack.

Case in point:

If memory serves, Maria Lancelot didn't exactly explain anything to Gengo. She inserted "pure information" into his mind and he had to work with that. I assume all he saw were flashes of images and probably like blue prints for making Stigmata.

There's your answer. Maria Lancelot is letting Kazuya know the real truth, while she didn't really tell Gengo much.

[GendoAizenPig]

That makes the entire thing even more bizarre. If you take Gengo's recollection of events at face value, Maria Lancelot very likely specifically came to tell him about the Nova invasion. Why would she withhold information? I mean did she foresee that everything would happen as it has and that he was just a pawn and Kazuya is the true savior?

Either way all this discussion makes me hope that the manga will answer these questions sooner rather than later. In particular where Non-Elca Maria Lancelot came from.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Culaio

he is completly responsible for death of his son Ryuuichi, if he at least tried to understand what his son feels after he lost his wife his son would be still alive) .

Ryuuichi is responsible for his own death, the guy was a moron.

Originally Posted by Alhazad2003

I don't doubt that Gengo has gone mad in his bid to save the world. Though as stated earlier, the writer's inconsistencies are becoming more and more apparent. At one point, it's stated that Gengo wants to preserve humanity, by making a small band of super soldiers (the Pandora) so humanity could remain itself. Then he sees how flawed the Pandora project is and seeks to replace it with the Valkyries. Then he claims he seeks to delay the Novas' judgment of humanity as long as possible, knowing it won't change the outcome. And then, he claims his whole goal is to make all humanity have stigma bodies so they can fight the Nova together (which would render the Valkyries null and void and contradicts what we thought was his original goal).

You're assuming he has perfect knowledge of everything, when the manga says otherwise. His plans change depending on what he learns and what happens.

And the inconsistencies don't stop there. First we see that Ouka was Kazuya's fiancee, which Gengo himself arranged. Then we see he approves of Kazuya being with Satellizer?

The marriage arrangement was not something set in stone. Kazuya said he didn't want to do it, so Gengo told him to do what he wants.

Then after showing what happened to Orie, we realize that Ouka has no future with Kazuya.

Nothing that happened with Orie would prove a hindrance with Kazuya having a relationship with Ouka.

Orie was mentally ill. If she and Ryuuichi hadn't been so stubborn and approached Gengo for help with having the baby, things would have gone differently.

So what was the point of making her his fiancee?

Again, he didn't make her his fiancee. I honestly think he tacitly agreed because he felt guilty about what happened with Orie.

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

Suna even thought he was a psychopath (like she is) because of how big of a prick he is if you remember correctly.

He tricked her into thinking that, if you'll recall

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Culaio

Gengo only seems to care when it's convenient for him. He didn't want the Chevalier dissecting Kazuha, but he had no qualms with treating his daughter in law like garbage and his son (and grandson) like pawns.

I'll give you Kazuya and Ryuuichi, but when did he treat Orie badly?

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

There's your answer. Maria Lancelot is letting Kazuya know the real truth, while she didn't really tell Gengo much.

Didn't Gengo say that as a pure human there was stuff he simply couldn't understand?

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Gengo may not have directly mistreated Orie, but I'd argue Kazuha's condescending attitude towards her only came about after her and Gengo started spending time together. He never seemed to hide his disapproval of her. Any sort of emotion towards her was framed as pity for an inferior being when it came from him. Turning your daughter against you and telling your husband to break it off with you seems like mistreatment to me. It's no wonder she was crazy.

Ryuuchi was screwed over by his father plain and simple. Gengo dropped his plan on him all at once and the shock of it all messed his head up. I think he even mentioned Maria Lancelot was his true mother and that the mother he knew was just a stand in. Couple that with his wife's death and I'd say Gengo played a LARGE part in his death.

I thought Suna figured out Gengo was lying because she heard him talking in his sleep. Did it reveal he purposely allowed her to hear that? Either way it doesn't disprove that he's a prick.

Don't really have any comments about Ouka because her plotline was dumb and it seems like it has been more or less forgotten.

[RedBlueBlack]

Oh wait I remembered. It's not that Maria withheld info from Gengo. It's just his brain couldn't process all of the info he was shown because he's a normal human.