US Elections 2012 Part II: The Conventions, Debates and Election results

[Sumeragi]

What about in places where there is no mass media?

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

This phenomenon is not something unique to Fox News viewers. There just isn't a news organization on the other side of the political spectrum with such widespread influence and shameless disregard of honest reporting.

I know people will point toward MSNBC as the "Liberal Fox News", but it's really not. I will admit that the later evening hosts are definitely more liberal though.

There really is nothing like Fox on the left, or the conservative viewpoint machine at all really. There's a strong element of propaganda to it, sometimes Orwellian even. This isn't to say that a form of this doesn't exist at all for the left, but I'm not going to play the "both sides do it" card - conservative messaging is simply better run, bigger, more pervasive, and better funded.

What I find most disturbing is how Fox and other conservative outlets play the underdog card. They constantly hammer into their audience that mainstream media is liberal and full of liberal bias, even though Fox dominates cable news ratings, conservative books top best seller lists, and figures like Limbaugh and Beck rule talk radio. I'm registered as a Democrat.....but I've received far more flyers, mailings, and robocalls from conservative PAC's who all claim that Obama is the worst President in history.

To be honest, this is why news should be boring. I'd like to see these pundit shows called for what they are: editorial content. They're opinion columns, nothing more, but because they can fill airtime and generate ratings, they're everywhere. It's great that these shows, when done with some seriousness, can really dig into issues and hopefully be more informative, but because everything demands "spin" and "narrative", any relevant information has to fight through hearsay first and hopefully not come out distorted in the echo chamber.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I am just mad that fiscal conservatism is in danger of dying out in America. That outspoken guy in Europe, Nigel Farage, is every bit a conservative. He demands deregulation, rights, less government control, democracy. But at no stage did I feel Nigel was retarded, or was trying to speak to retards.

I should be on the opposite political spectrum from Nigel, but I still respect him because he makes his case well.

Life is difficult in Europe right now. People are suffering. But I don't feel Europeans are dumb. I feel they would vote for the right choice if given the chance to do so. At the very least they would vote for their own interests.

And then I turn to America. And all the talk was about "what's important is the presentation, not substance".

It is frankly disgusting that it took until THIS MONTH for PBS NewsHour to dedicate a feature on fact checking. What, you never needed to do this before? You are too late.

[Ascaloth]

It seems we are all cursed to live in... interesting times.

[Dr. Casey]

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

What about in places where there is no mass media?

Are you talking about place like Somalia and Afghanistan ?

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by ViolentLove

Democracy is exactly what the rulers want - the illusion of choice within a totalitarian system, a populace of sheep who believe they have freedom of thought.

If I am a dictator, I would love your kind of nihilistic cynicism.

It is the naive, the dreamers, those willing to speak up, those desperate enough to fight, to live and die for idealistic hopes of liberty and equality that I would fear. You will whine and sleep; they will fight and take me down.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Life is difficult in Europe right now. People are suffering. But I don't feel Europeans are dumb. I feel they would vote for the right choice if given the chance to do so. At the very least they would vote for their own interests.

I would spare a worry for the rise of far-right nationalist parties in Europe. It's true that many Europeans are voting for the fascists (and I'm going to call them that, the opportunistic scums) only as a protest against the establishment parties and the EU's austerity regime, but too many people going too far protesting that way and there will some very unfortunate side effects.

Note the rise of Golden Dawn in Greece, for example, or Marine Le Pen and Front national's success in France. Interesting times indeed.

Of course, however disturbing their rise, they are not the other half of a major world power's two-party system.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by ViolentLove

^ There is no such thing as true democracy anyway.

Democracy = country shaped by people's opinions

Where do people's opinions come from?

Mass media.

Who controls the mass media?

***

In other words, democracy = totalitarian rule.

If you believe in democracy, you've been played.

True democracy=dictatorship of the majority. 51% of the population can condemn 49% of the population to death if they want.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

True democracy=dictatorship of the majority. 51% of the population can condemn 49% of the population to death if they want.

The smart part of the 51% would realise that they would themselves become the 49% eventually if enough people get killed off.

But that assumes intelligence. And as such any democracy that values stupidity above all else, is doomed.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am just mad that fiscal conservatism is in danger of dying out in America. That outspoken guy in Europe, Nigel Farage, is every bit a conservative. He demands deregulation, rights, less government control, democracy. But at no stage did I feel Nigel was retarded, or was trying to speak to retards.

I should be on the opposite political spectrum from Nigel, but I still respect him because he makes his case well.

Life is difficult in Europe right now. People are suffering. But I don't feel Europeans are dumb. I feel they would vote for the right choice if given the chance to do so. At the very least they would vote for their own interests.

And then I turn to America. And all the talk was about "what's important is the presentation, not substance".

It is frankly disgusting that it took until THIS MONTH for PBS NewsHour to dedicate a feature on fact checking. What, you never needed to do this before? You are too late.

Ouch! Take it easy on us. We aren't perfect... sure... but I'd like to think we've enjoyed stability far better than Europe in many ways. It's only been over a decade since Europe had it's last genocide.... Barring the Scandinavian countries (especially Norway) I think we are at least in equal footing or better compared to the most of Europe in terms of various socio and economic problems that tend to shape general population. People over here may have their differences in political views which is exploited by giant media companies like Fox and MSNBC, but in the end the fundamental values don't differ much. While the entire Europe is under tremendous pressure of going bankrupt, we talk about it fervently also so we don't go into that route. And the optimism shared by majority is that we won't. Sure, these debates are a farce, but if you read between the lines, both candidates are saying the same things. They are merely tweaking their talking points to appeal to their bases, democrats and republicans. At the end of the day, people in the far right and people in the far left are still in the minorities.

The point is that the impression you are getting about us in that manner is because we are our biggest critic. We are going to be alright.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

No, I totally agree. I was just disagreeing with monir's assertion that he's awkward with the general public, and Romney's supposed lack of social grace is something his detractors have very frequently lambasted him for. I just think it's unfair; bash people for their actual faults, not just made up ones. :/ I'm reminded of the petty assholes from the 1980s who called Ronald Reagan Prune Face (A 1st grade insult if I've ever heard one, and a stupid one to boot. Wtf, a guy in his 70s that has wrinkles?!?! What kind of wizardry is this?!?!?!?!?!) Romney might not be a joke a minute, slap-someone-on-the-back-and-ask-how-their-mom-and-dad's-doing guy, but I think he's personable.

Ith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...cMF5Ps#t=2309s

I think a lot of subsequent posts have already addressed it, but we aren't talking about his social skill in private. He grew up in a very sheltered environment and that's gong to remain one of his bigger disadvantages because it makes it harder for him to relate to the majority of Americans. That's a very fair point! His hilarious comment "binders full of women" once again highlights that how hard he needs to work to NOT to be himself. It was one of the reason why he wasn't taken seriously by the GOP last time around.

[ViolentLove]

Originally Posted by Solace

I know people will point toward MSNBC as the "Liberal Fox News", but it's really not. I will admit that the later evening hosts are definitely more liberal though.

There really is nothing like Fox on the left, or the conservative viewpoint machine at all really. There's a strong element of propaganda to it, sometimes Orwellian even. This isn't to say that a form of this doesn't exist at all for the left, but I'm not going to play the "both sides do it" card - conservative messaging is simply better run, bigger, more pervasive, and better funded.

What I find most disturbing is how Fox and other conservative outlets play the underdog card. They constantly hammer into their audience that mainstream media is liberal and full of liberal bias, even though Fox dominates cable news ratings, conservative books top best seller lists, and figures like Limbaugh and Beck rule talk radio. I'm registered as a Democrat.....but I've received far more flyers, mailings, and robocalls from conservative PAC's who all claim that Obama is the worst President in history.

To be honest, this is why news should be boring. I'd like to see these pundit shows called for what they are: editorial content. They're opinion columns, nothing more, but because they can fill airtime and generate ratings, they're everywhere. It's great that these shows, when done with some seriousness, can really dig into issues and hopefully be more informative, but because everything demands "spin" and "narrative", any relevant information has to fight through hearsay first and hopefully not come out distorted in the echo chamber.

All the big mainstream news outlets in America are part of the system.

If you want to stop the people from rising up, keep them divided and fighting against each other. The purpose of mainstream media is to give them false and irrelevant information to divide the masses, while directing attention away from danger i.e. Ron Paul.

The presidential debates are exactly that. Two sides who are only pretending to be opponents. They are actually on the same side. There's nobody who becomes US President who isn't a part of the in-group, and however bad people think Bush was, Obama took Bush's every policy and expanded on them. The punch line is that it's not even Obama's decision. He's there as an international mascot. A face to make people happy.

Divide and Control. Illusion of choice.

Originally Posted by Irenicus

If I am a dictator, I would love your kind of nihilistic cynicism.

It is the naive, the dreamers, those willing to speak up, those desperate enough to fight, to live and die for idealistic hopes of liberty and equality that I would fear. You will whine and sleep; they will fight and take me down.

Actually, the biggest threat to a totalitarian system is the light of Truth - those who seek Truth. That's the only thing that will turn over the system. Trying to "fight for liberty" within a corrupt system is like two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.

Whether they assassinate Barack Obama or Ben Bernanke doesn't matter. They're replaceable puppets. The real danger to them is if people wake up to discover the truth of what's really happening in America. If you simply "fight" against those in power, they will laugh at you, just like they laughed at the whole "occupy wall street" joke.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

What about in places where there is no mass media?

Democracy is always a path that leads to totalitarian rule because public opinion is always subject to propaganda.

[willx]

@Conspiracy Theorist(s) --

I'm quite confused about this whole idea that mass media is controlled by "The Man"

Did Watergate never happen? Did, not after the initial skepticism, the media not do stories on Monica Lewinski? Was Al Gore not shown to be sighing disgustedly during the debates with Bush Jr.? Did the Bushisms not get aired? Just because the media has conflicting desires with regards to profit doesn't mean it's necessarily under the thumb of the government as much as you or anyone think it is. It's funny cause I hear this from EVERYONE.

General Population -- "The media just tells us what those in power want us to hear!"
Right Wingers / GOP -- "The media is totally all for Obama! That moderator was a crook!"
Left Wingers / Dems -- "Fox news is evil! Too much of the media is controlled by the rich elite!"

Again, the news and media isn't perfect, there are conflicting and profit motives involved and no one is ever 100% unbiased.. But it's like a statistical sample .. Enough lean in opposite directions and some international sources are bulletproof enough that in the aggregate there's value there.

Remember (again): Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity

[monir]

Originally Posted by willx

@Conspiracy Theorist(s) --

I'm quite confused about this whole idea that mass media is controlled by "The Man"

Did Watergate never happen? Did, not after the initial skepticism, the media not do stories on Monica Lewinski? Was Al Gore not shown to be sighing disgustedly during the debates with Bush Jr.? Did the Bushisms not get aired? Just because the media has conflicting desires with regards to profit doesn't mean it's necessarily under the thumb of the government as much as you or anyone think it is. It's funny cause I hear this from EVERYONE.

General Population -- "The media just tells us what those in power want us to hear!"
Right Wingers / GOP -- "The media is totally all for Obama! That moderator was a crook!"
Left Wingers / Dems -- "Fox news is evil! Too much of the media is controlled by the rich elite!"

Again, the news and media isn't perfect, there are conflicting and profit motives involved and no one is ever 100% unbiased.. But it's like a statistical sample .. Enough lean in opposite directions and some international sources are bulletproof enough that in the aggregate there's value there.

Remember (again): Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity

Ditto! Very well said. Media has its self interest in mind like any other typical corporation, but it also has its use.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

What did you mean with this?

Nice kick anyway.

[Dr. Casey]

That, Kira, was a recording of Mitt Romney's childhood growing up in the deadly streets of L.A. The blonde girl is Hillary Clinton being mugged by a savage young girl belonging to the most bloodthirsty gang around, but thankfully Mitt Romney was around to bravely risk his life fighting the gang member and save poor Hillary.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

True democracy=dictatorship of the majority. 51% of the population can condemn 49% of the population to death if they want.

First, I don't even know what this "true democracy" is, since there are more than one forms of democracy. And there is proportional representation system.

Originally Posted by willx

@Conspiracy Theorist(s) --

I'm quite confused about this whole idea that mass media is controlled by "The Man"

Did Watergate never happen? Did, not after the initial skepticism, the media not do stories on Monica Lewinski? Was Al Gore not shown to be sighing disgustedly during the debates with Bush Jr.? Did the Bushisms not get aired? Just because the media has conflicting desires with regards to profit doesn't mean it's necessarily under the thumb of the government as much as you or anyone think it is. It's funny cause I hear this from EVERYONE.

General Population -- "The media just tells us what those in power want us to hear!"
Right Wingers / GOP -- "The media is totally all for Obama! That moderator was a crook!"
Left Wingers / Dems -- "Fox news is evil! Too much of the media is controlled by the rich elite!"

Again, the news and media isn't perfect, there are conflicting and profit motives involved and no one is ever 100% unbiased.. But it's like a statistical sample .. Enough lean in opposite directions and some international sources are bulletproof enough that in the aggregate there's value there.

Remember (again): Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity

True, but I think most people feel that the media has been getting worse in last few years. At this point so many of the media are focused on ratings too much that they are trying forgetting to tell the truth and inform actual issues. I would actually like to see all mass media becoming non-profit organizations. In that case there would be no motivation for profits, instead only motivations for actual journalism.

[Dr. Casey]

I'm guessing darth means Greek-style direct democracy, where the people come together to vote on each individual law rather than simply electing people to more or less do as they please (ie the United States' representative democracy).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

True democracy=dictatorship of the majority. 51% of the population can condemn 49% of the population to death if they want.

that would be Ep3 of Kino's Journey.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

That, Kira, was a recording of Mitt Romney's childhood growing up in the deadly streets of L.A. The blonde girl is Hillary Clinton being mugged by a savage young girl belonging to the most bloodthirsty gang around, but thankfully Mitt Romney was around to bravely risk his life fighting the gang member and save poor Hillary.

So its super bizzaro world where not only does Mitt have a troubled childhood but a Republican and a Clinton actually get along. I think my heads about to explode at the need thought of this.

As for the media, its been on a decline for a while but I think the same thing that pushed our culture over the edge has been the final nail in the coffin...pandering to social media trends.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

that would be Ep3 of Kino's Journey.

Not really, it was the majority than killed thoses than voted against it.