Claymore Chapter 119

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

I hope that with "other people" you are not talking about me,if not you clearly misunderstood what i was saying....

By other people i did mean you.
So maybe i did misunderstand, i just don't remember. I thought that you were saying something about there being no chance that Renee was alive. But i guess i was wrong or something.

[carbontaxes]

No I know there is no objective in a discussion like this. Was just purposely using "objective" to make my personal opinion "more right" than someone elses. On purpose. I was bored?

[Dj0rel]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

But it will not show us anything (you'd think we 'd have a glimpse at Renee or what used to be Renee if she was around) and it can just as well be a monologue for Riful.
Where is Renee? Well, hiding, laying low after taking the Yoki suppression pill, because that would be the smart thing to do?

The maximum time she would have spend hiding is 12 hours. Which is how long the effect of the yoki suppressant pill lasts. After this she would be able to sense that Riful is no longer there and that she could leave.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Who knows? I think Yagi might be as lazy as to never adress this clearly ever again in fact, but we will see. Obviously, if she is still alive, she might show up at the org soon.

If Yagi never address this again, it wouldn't be lazy but realistic. All those who witnessed Renee's final fate are dead. There is absolutely no way for any character within the story to find out what had happened to her. And everything the readers found out about the story is through characters. The best thing we can get was in chapter 114 page 3.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

It cheapens the story for me, to put things simply.
Cynthia was dying (touching scene, saying her goodbyes), and poof.
Miria was dead, as far as everyone knew, and poof.
3 former #1s return from the dead... poof

What (supposedly) cheapens the story is when a previously established character dies and then is brought back to life. None of your examples fit that criteria. Cynthia and Miria were never dead and the three number ones were never characters before they got resurrected.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Irene has returned?

Chapter 36.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Because with the amount of damage endured, it is now pretty much implied that unless someone would be entirely obliterated, they can be saved, as opposed to the good old "Offensive Claymores will lose limbs, defensive claymores can regen but only so much". It's just a DBZ like explosion in scale of power and survivability imo.

Extensive damage has always been there. Look what happened to Raquel and she still lived long enough to walk from Mount Zakol all the way to the town where Clare was. And she wasn't even a single digit.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

We knew more about luciella? Really?
Also, what do we know about Riful? mmh?
Isley got some back story thanks to being the main antagonist (along with Riful) since Pieta and having an extra dedicated to his encounter with Pris, but in fact what did we learn about him? His past? his goals?

And what did we know about Jean and Flora? Their pasts? Goals?

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by carbontaxes

No I know there is no objective in a discussion like this. Was just purposely using "objective" to make my personal opinion "more right" than someone elses. On purpose. I was bored?

.........please tell me you're just being sarcastic .

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Claymore!

By other people i did mean you.
So maybe i did misunderstand, i just don't remember. I thought that you were saying something about there being no chance that Renee was alive. But i guess i was wrong or something.

Yes,if that what you thought i was saying,than you misunderstood completely.

Reneee is also in a uncertain situation,she could be still alive or she could be already been killed by Riful.No one can know at the moment, we can only have personal (and subjective) opinions about it.
Sure as hell i wasn't saying that Lune is surely dead.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Her fate is only really uncertain if you don't examine the panel I mentioned closely. I'm pretty sure that hunk of flesh didn't show up from nowhere.

Sure, it should have been clearer, but its there.

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Her fate is only really uncertain if you don't examine the panel I mentioned closely. I'm pretty sure that hunk of flesh didn't show up from nowhere.

Sure, it should have been clearer, but its there.

That just looks like a rock or rubble from when her ribbon-type things disrupted the ground. Or at least thats what I see.

[Double_friedman]

Any new spoilers???

[Demon6666]

Why do i feel like i'm the only one who actually liked Miria's supposed death? In my opinion that scene was one of the greatest scenes in Claymore so far. Not only did it show that Miria was flawed and naive, but it also showed a every human side to Claymore's in general, ironically, perhaps even more human than the organisations men.

Try to think of it from the perspective of the organisation's claymores who had to fight her. Standing before them was a mere single warrior. At first the manga said that the situations was laughable, but at the back of their minds they probably feared for their lives because why would this warrior do this herself? surely she cannot defeat them all?

When Miria spared their lives, it immediately became obvious that she was not an enemy. Then later when she yelled out Hilda's name, that fact became even clearer. Now i don't know about you guys, but if i was one of those claymores, i would probably feel a connection by that point, and would absolutely make sure that when she was being sliced up, my blade would merely scrape and not kill her.

Now then Miria was being supposedly sliced up, the organisation's men were shocked that they had to tell them to stop. From their perspective, the claymores were monsters and not human. there was a panel in which the warriors had blood smeared over their faces, and the next panel shows the horror on the mens faces when they saw this. Surely, after all that gory blood feast the intruder had been destroyed? also notice how the claymores seem to stand in between Miria and the men, closing them off in a sense. It was said that they absolutely didn't want to confirm her death, so they made themselves appear like monsters to make it perfectly 'obvious' that they had no empathy or sense of humanity whatsoever so there was no need to check up a sliced up corpse (which it was not apparently). None of the men were interested in getting involved in this 'mess' and merry walked off in disgust.

a very interesting scene imo.

Ofcourse this probably wouldn't work in 'real life', but hey, this is a manga. And to me that was a pretty epic scene. but thats just my opinion, take it how you will

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by Dj0rel

The maximum time she would have spend hiding is 12 hours. Which is how long the effect of the yoki suppressant pill lasts. After this she would be able to sense that Riful is no longer there and that she could leave.

And by that time Riful was too busy or deadanyway.
Point stands, we have 0 evidence that Renee is actually dead,

If Yagi never address this again, it wouldn't be lazy but realistic. All those who witnessed Renee's final fate are dead.

Except that Renee is no necessarily dead

There is absolutely no way for any character within the story to find out what had happened to her. And everything the readers found out about the story is through characters. The best thing we can get was in chapter 114 page 3.

Thing is, Renee was a useless character, with no backstory. I could not care less if she is alive or dead, but again we simply do not know either way for sure.

What (supposedly) cheapens the story is when a previously established character dies and then is brought back to life. None of your examples fit that criteria. Cynthia and Miria were never dead and the three number ones were never characters before they got resurrected.

As I said, it cheapens it -forme-. Since when is an opinion wrong?
And to me everything I mentionned fits the bill.

Chapter 36.

Now you are being dense for the sake of it.
Everything we have talked about is about Irene -during the Ophelia period-.

Extensive damage has always been there. Look what happened to Raquel and she still lived long enough to walk from Mount Zakol all the way to the town where Clare was. And she wasn't even a single digit.

And she died on arrival, she knew she had no hope of survival, but wanted to warn her colleagues (which of course Riful was counting on). With the current situation, she'd be back up in no time
Point stands, thanks for the help actually.

And what did we know about Jean and Flora? Their pasts? Goals?

They appeared during a far shorter moment,and yet Yagi made us care for them more than we care for the current crop.
As per Isley, he was an antagonist from chapter 49 all the way to chapter 89... 40 chapters with ... what?

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Her fate is only really uncertain if you don't examine the panel I mentioned closely. I'm pretty sure that hunk of flesh didn't show up from nowhere.

Sure, it should have been clearer, but its there.

You mean this?



That hunk of flesh as you call it might just as well be a rock. In fact not "just as well" but definitely is. From all the parts Yagi could have shown (even an arm would do since if she got the arm she would get everything) he would show us the part that looks like a rock? That makes no sense. And notice that due to Destroyer's awakening, rocks were flying all over the place, we can see it in the second page of ch. 93, then on the next page we see them flying in the air and then in the next we see it on the ground. What's strange about it? Not to mention that rock could have been there from the start or due to Riful's landing.

As for Riful's monologue, it might just as well be taken as a token of commendation to Renee's actions and praising her for a smart decision since she was in a lose-lose situation and she managed to survive. Notice that she did not say "you would be dead either way" but "you were already out of options for staying alive".

On the other hand, Dj0rel and you Fenrir have neglected to explain how come Renee could be caught when she had outrun Duff (and has shown how fast she is) while being cloaked (at least to Riful who we know can't sense Claymores on pills), while being in the forest, while having a distance advantage over Riful. That would be like finding a single ant in a huge forest, Riful failed to do it when ghosts escaped her so why could she do it now? Especially since she had only a moment for it since a while later Destroyer awakened and she had to go back (even if she wouldn't, Alicia and Beth were near).

As to why Renee did not report to the organization, why didn't Irene do it after she survived her encounter with Priscilla? When did Renee say she had such intention in the first place? BEFORE she was caught by Riful. I would think that such traumatic experience she had would change her significantly, seeing how they didn't give a sh*t about her and left her to die. There is also possibility she died due to Destroyer's awakening or some other way but personally I think she's alive. Either way all the clues indicating she's dead are useless.

To sum up:

There is no sign of blood, no part of Renee, nothing. We didn't see a hand even and Riful didn't say she's dead. She said Renee was out of options. She also had only a moment to apprehend her since Destroyer awakened. Add to this that she was cloaked and couldn't possibly be found and you have your answer - Riful could not kill Renee unless she was extremely lucky. Besides, with current Claymore trends even if she was minced to pieces she would have a huge chance to survive seeing how offensive warrior such as Miria could do it, defensive warrior like Renee would be able to do it more easily.

[MalakTawus]

Gooral, the way Riful speaks is just as if has already killed Lune,even if it's not sure,Yagi surely wanted the readers to think that way.

Also Irene was n.2,so OBVIOUSLY she had a HUGE reson to not go back: she would have been the n.1 if she returned and so IF the org decided to hunt Prissy she would have been the one to be sent........she also lost her WHOLE team so that was a heavy faliure for her to accept.
Now we look at Lune: she has absolutely NO REASON to not come back,on the contrary she should go back to the org ASAP to inform them about what happened.
You speak as if Lune and Irene were in similar condition,and this is pure nonsense.

Also Lune didn't have a great advantage over Riful,infact CLAIRE herself said very clearly that she 's not sure at all that Lune would have been able to escape Riful alone (one the contrary she is convinced that she has no chance at all),so she had to help her........in conclusion Gooral,it's easy to conclude that almost surely Lune escaped IF you pretend to not see the little hints that point that Lune could be dead lol, and btw,between your personal opinion and Claire's opinion,surely Claire's opinion is 1000 times more trustworthy to judge the situation,so your great supposition that "Riful could only find Lune if SUPER-LUCKY" is greatly weakened from what's said in the manga itself......

To sum up:

There is no way to determine if Lune is alive or not,and all the people that say that one version of the story is certain are simply blind people that see only the aspects in favor of their theory without even considering the others,lol.

[Gooral]

Irene had a huge reason to not go back and Renee didn't? What? Her reason would be the same as Renee's, i.e. she wouldn't want to go back being a warrior when she knew what monsters she would have to face. In her case though it would be more probable she would be actually sent (even if not for battle) since she was the eye. On the other hand AFAWK no #1 was sent after abyssals and certainly not since Teresa's generation so what makes you think Irene would be? And in the first place what makes you think she would become #1?
Anyway, they both had perfect opportunities to disappear, Irene since Priscilla awakened and Renee since Destroyer awakened directing the attention away from them.

Going back to Renee though, why would she go back to the organization when she knew they've had nothing to stop neither Priscilla nor Destroyer who she met first hand (especially Destroyer since she could sense it thoroughly)? She also let herself be captured, interrogated and was the trigger to Raciella's awakening. She is also the eye so tracking her down would be impossible to MiB (unless they've somehow had sth of Renee's that zombies could smell). On the other hand Irene completed her mission, at great cost but completed it and knew that organization would be too weak to punish her so she might have gone back without worries. She just chose not to because she wasn't fit to be a warrior.

As for what Clare said, it's funny you consider her words in such high regard when Riful couldn't find Clare being at point blank range. Renee was also cloaked, could also hide AND wasn't at point blank range but had a distance advantage. And we're talking about the same Riful who couldn't catch even one ghost carrying one Claymore... So yeah, Clare is more trustworthy than me when it comes to Claymore as you've put it but Yagi is more trustworthy than Clare and he has clearly shown us that Riful can't track down a cloaked Claymore if he's fast enough. And Renee was fast, Yagi made sure to emphasize it in chapter 81 (and also in chapter 91 where Renee has easily outrun Duff) and Clare had no way of knowing that.

[Nixl]

Omg, I remember bringing up that same image of "Rene" and HegamonKhan said I was interpreting a face out of the moon or some other strange analogy.

I cannot think of any reason for Yagi to draw/shade that object in except to imply Rene's corpse. Considering the ground and the supposed background what purpose does that silhouette serve otherwise?

[rafael1932]

It is a rock. It makes more sense lune being alive than dead. Lune is not a so important character that yagi has to bring her already. For example consider the main character situation.

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by rafael1932

It is a rock. It makes more sense lune being alive than dead. Lune is not a so important character that yagi has to bring her already. For example consider the main character situation.

Rafael1932, why would Yagi put two white ovals akin to eye sockets on a strangely shaped rock directly between Riful's tendrils? What purpose, artistically, is there for Yagi to place those two ovals there?

[Fenrir_valindri]

The sheer amount of time that passes doesn't really support Lune being alive. Riful's dialogue paired with the "rock" as Gooral puts it, really doesn't add to Lune surviving that encounter either.

The Organization has successfully recalled back all its warriors to the Organization, Miria left Rabona and headed to the Organization (and arrived), the rest of the Ghosts managed to drag Clare + Destroyer + Priscilla to Rabona, and now the Ghosts are closing in on the Organization + Miria's rebellion.

Really, if Lune simply disappeared during this time despite surviving, there would at least be some dialogue mentioning her escape, instead of Riful sounding like she had just killed her.

As for reasons Riful could catch her, sheer speed is a good one. She is far faster then Lune could hope to be. Riful would only need to chase in the direction she ran toward to catch sight of her, especially with Riful's sheer size.

Even with a Yoki-pill, it doesn't stop her from being sighted. I doubt a seriously injured Lune is anywhere near as fast as the Ghosts were, not to mention they could split up, while Riful only had to chase a single injured warrior in this case.

[Gooral]

Splitting up means nothing, she couldn't even get Helen and I seriously doubt she was as fast as Renee. As intelligent as Riful was she would know that capturing one of them would lure out the rest, at least it would be worth a try but she gave up. She couldn't find Clare either even though she was right under her nose and ger superior speed was worthless in finding someone hidden in the woods.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

(...)
Even with a Yoki-pill, it doesn't stop her from being sighted. I doubt a seriously injured Lune is anywhere near as fast as the Ghosts were, not to mention they could split up, while Riful only had to chase a single injured warrior in this case.

If it were in the desert I would agree with you but it's a mountainous terrain with forests.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Demon6666

Why do i feel like i'm the only one who actually liked Miria's supposed death? In my opinion that scene was one of the greatest scenes in Claymore so far. Not only did it show that Miria was flawed and naive, but it also showed a every human side to Claymore's in general, ironically, perhaps even more human than the organisations men.

Try to think of it from the perspective of the organisation's claymores who had to fight her. Standing before them was a mere single warrior. At first the manga said that the situations was laughable, but at the back of their minds they probably feared for their lives because why would this warrior do this herself? surely she cannot defeat them all?

When Miria spared their lives, it immediately became obvious that she was not an enemy. Then later when she yelled out Hilda's name, that fact became even clearer. Now i don't know about you guys, but if i was one of those claymores, i would probably feel a connection by that point, and would absolutely make sure that when she was being sliced up, my blade would merely scrape and not kill her.

Now then Miria was being supposedly sliced up, the organisation's men were shocked that they had to tell them to stop. From their perspective, the claymores were monsters and not human. there was a panel in which the warriors had blood smeared over their faces, and the next panel shows the horror on the mens faces when they saw this. Surely, after all that gory blood feast the intruder had been destroyed? also notice how the claymores seem to stand in between Miria and the men, closing them off in a sense. It was said that they absolutely didn't want to confirm her death, so they made themselves appear like monsters to make it perfectly 'obvious' that they had no empathy or sense of humanity whatsoever so there was no need to check up a sliced up corpse (which it was not apparently). None of the men were interested in getting involved in this 'mess' and merry walked off in disgust.

a very interesting scene imo.

Ofcourse this probably wouldn't work in 'real life', but hey, this is a manga. And to me that was a pretty epic scene. but thats just my opinion, take it how you will

No no; if the reaction of her death was any sign that people were affected by it then, in that sense, it was very well done. Their is nothing in Miria going to Staff alone that isn't her character, and she herself, undoubtedly predicted the likelihood of her death.

None of these things about the humanity of the warriors and inhumanity of the MiB's was anything new, but their aren't many moments where it's presented to us so fully in black/white -- topped with Miria feeling like she sees Hilda and smiling as she gets cut up....it was beautiful in a very black and horrifying way, and fits in with the other big deaths we've seen which were also tragic/beautiful.

I mean really; when you think about it, Isley's death wasn't that different from Miria's -- while we still don't know all the fine details of the time the 'family' spent together and how/why they split (despite the million and one theories, and my own), it really wasn't that different....maybe Isley's death didn't seem so in-your-face and/or the circumstances were different, but both the deaths aren't all that far apart. People's feelings could very well just boil down to which one is more popular *shrug.

But yes, I can see why, beyond just the response to Miria's death, how it went down itself can be seen as appealing and fit with the story.

Originally Posted by Nixl

Claymore! Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is the very point Malak is arriving at. This manga leaves large details of story vague or up for imagination. Therefore, making claims that one knows to a degree of 100% certainty of what happened is ridiculous in itself.

oh wait, nevermind, I am just in denial.

Well, their are some 100% confirmed things that are spelled out for us - this is done for the sake of us having at least some foundation for us to work and debate from. This is usually the really simple superficial stuff that, again, is spelled out for us in black/white, leaving no room for error or false interpretation whatsoever.

But of course, that stuff is extremely few and far between -- the majority is as you say; deliberately ambiguous and open to interpretation, which makes for half the fun of Claymore.

[Dj0rel]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

And by that time Riful was too busy or deadanyway.
Point stands, we have 0 evidence that Renee is actually dead,

There are also 0 evidence that she's alive. Whoever there are also 0 things that imply that she's alive while there are 2 things that imply she's dead

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Except that Renee is no necessarily dead

Thing is, Renee was a useless character, with no backstory. I could not care less if she is alive or dead, but again we simply do not know either way for sure.

Jean and Flora had no backstory either. I don't see you calling them useless characters. In fact, Renee has a much more interesting personality than either of those.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Now you are being dense for the sake of it.
Everything we have talked about is about Irene -during the Ophelia period-.

Fine, I'll spell it out for you. Priscilla was actively trying to kill Irene. Miria was slashed by a bunch of warriors that were trying to fake her death. Priscilla could sense yoki therefore she had better chance to know that Irene wasn't dead unlike organization's men who cannot sense yoki. Therefore Miria's survival has more sense than Irene's. If you complain about how did Miria survive and never asked yourself how did Irene survive then that's double standard.

Originally Posted by Elandyll

And she died on arrival, she knew she had no hope of survival, but wanted to warn her colleagues (which of course Riful was counting on). With the current situation, she'd be back up in no time
Point stands, thanks for the help actually.

There's no proof that she would have died if there was a healer like Cynthia nearby to heal her wounds. Besides her wounds were much more severe than Cynthia's. She was missing a lots of vital organs while Cynthia only lost her arms and legs.

@Gooral

Originally Posted by Gooral

On the other hand, Dj0rel and you Fenrir have neglected to explain how come Renee could be caught when she had outrun Duff (and has shown how fast she is) while being cloaked (at least to Riful who we know can't sense Claymores on pills), while being in the forest, while having a distance advantage over Riful. That would be like finding a single ant in a huge forest, Riful failed to do it when ghosts escaped her so why could she do it now? Especially since she had only a moment for it since a while later Destroyer awakened and she had to go back (even if she wouldn't, Alicia and Beth were near).

The same way Clare would have been caught by Riful in Clare couldn't sense yoki. Take a look at the page 28 of chapter 71. Riful makes a horizontal slash and Clare dodges it because she could sense it coming and on the very next page Clare dodges more attacks which means Riful could have hit her multiple times (in your words, she would have found a single ant in a huge forest if the ant hadn't been dodging her ). It would be impossible for Renee to do the same because yoki suppressant pill also disables one's ability to sense yoki. So the answer to your question is: Riful makes a sweeping slash, Renee doesn't sense it coming because she is on YSP and Renee ends up sliced in half.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Renee was also cloaked, could also hide AND wasn't at point blank range but had a distance advantage.

The distance was obviously small enough for Riful and Duff to talk to each other. Riful should have no problem covering that distance in a blink of an eye. And Duff never fully lost the sight of Renee.