Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The thing is, Lelouch doesn't actually need to fake civilian brutality on the part of Britannia or the Japanese Terrorists.

That doesn't mean Zero can't amplify said brutality though, (e.g. using bombs in episode 8) or to organise the mass-media to make existing acts of brutality look worse than usual through the sensationalism of reporters.

It's possible to do that, alright. The media is a double-edged sword for Britannia if Lelouch continues to do what he believes is needed.

The question is, where does this lead? If you are willing to deceive innocent people for your own ends, how far would you need to go before the needs of the innocents were disregarded all together?

That would come under the future altogether. We have to take note of his objectives as well, and that is to destroy Britannia as an empire. In this case, one can argue that he's telling 'white lies', things that can destroy Britannia's credibility and perhaps bring out the inner oppressed self to fight back instead of being treated like scum. If his key goal was to destroy the very power that has severely been brutal in their rule of the Japanese/Elevens, it would benefit them to an extent as well.

Lelouch made a promise not to tell lies to his sister, but he made it clear then, that anyone else is fair game.

No shit. He's already told a lie regarding C.C, an accomplice in his grand scheme. It might seem small, since Nanaly herself mistook C.C as a *ahem* close companion of Lelouch, but it will be damaging in the long run.

Originally Posted by CronuZ

Hes deceiving the public, Yes, but will he risking the lifes of innocent?? I'm not so sure about it.

It's a thin and fine line he treads between logic and madness, especially with the tactics he's been using. When push comes to shove, we don't know what will really happen.

Remember, his need to turn the odds against him is really important cause he have no weapon watsoever... juz onli his Geass power and his Order of Black Knights.

I believe that will be pertaining more to the episodes where he has yet to establish the Order. With his Geass power, he could only achieve minor victories. The Order is evidence that he has realised mostly that power and support is needed if he was to succeed at all.

Up against a oversized opponent Brittania, u really can't blaming him gettin public recognition since this will really give the Brittanian army alot of media pressure and attention.

As well as a message sent to the people of Area 11 itself. It would be pointless if he just scurry about like a goddamned rat using guerilla warfare and engaging in underground activities. It was probably a message to the oppressed Elevens as well as a possible awakening of the unhappiness with the Britannian rule in them, and as such possibly garner more support. As stated earlier, it can be good for the Elevens as well. Liberation by a mysterious character who has beaten the seemingly impervious Britannia, and a self-proclaimed seeker of justice as well...Who wouldn't want that?

[TheFluff]

Who cares about morals? For me, what makes Geass interesting at all is Lelouch's refreshing lack of inhibitions. I've seen enough of idealistic protagonists over the years. I knew I was going to like this show back in ep 2 or so where Suzaku turned back to save a civilian and Lelouch went something like "Well, if he wants moral victories, he can have them."

Up until now, the story sure hasn't been kind to Suzaku's way either. Just look at what happened after he stopped the fight between the terrorists and the Britannian soldiers.
Lelouch, on the other hand, has had huge successes with his opposite way.

From here, I see two routes:
1. After walking a long and drama-filled road, Suzaku finally reaps the results of his tireless niceness and somehow turns Lelouch into a nice guy. Happy end, optionally with Lelouch dying having realized his mistakes, Darth Vader style (which would kind of make Suzaku the hero and make the ending bittersweet, which would be kind of interesting as well). Standard idealistic, morally and politically correct anime ending, in other words. Nice enough to make you naseous.
2. Despite fighting tirelessly for the length of the series, Suzaku fails. Lelouch, on the other hand, succeeds, thus proving that being a Nice Guy and having Morals and Values isn't enough in the real world. Optionally, Lelouch is forced to kill Suzaku, who won't give up on his principles. Potentially very dark ending, and certainly a lot more interesting than most anime endings are.

I don't think I need to say I hope for the second but expect the first. :/

[Jewelray]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

From here, I see two routes:
1. After walking a long and drama-filled road, Suzaku finally reaps the results of his tireless niceness and somehow turns Lelouch into a nice guy. Happy end, optionally with Lelouch dying having realized his mistakes, Darth Vader style (which would kind of make Suzaku the hero and make the ending bittersweet, which would be kind of interesting as well). Standard idealistic, morally and politically correct anime ending, in other words. Nice enough to make you naseous.
2. Despite fighting tirelessly for the length of the series, Suzaku fails. Lelouch, on the other hand, succeeds, thus proving that being a Nice Guy and having Morals and Values isn't enough in the real world. Optionally, Lelouch is forced to kill Suzaku, who won't give up on his principles. Potentially very dark ending, and certainly a lot more interesting than most anime endings are.

I would very much like the see it go down the route of the second possibility.

Or if that is too dark, or not the message the creator was trying to go for, how about Lelouch pretty much succeeding in his world-take over or revenge or whatever he is trying to do, remains the nutcase that he already is but worse, and then Suzaku is forced to kill him/ take him down (Lelouch is too stubborn and crazy to say, 'well I guess I was wrong' so he remains the bad guy.) We now get: hypocrisy is wrong and the ends don't justify the means. It's not as pessimistic but it's a better overall message than "fighting is bad and friendship is good, let's all go pick flowers and bake cookies together yay"

[felix]

Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

Nop.. the ends always have to justafy the means, and they never do..

Leluche only follows the path of revenge so it's out of the question for his ambitions would motivate his actions.. you know what they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree..

On another note, are Suzaku's means justafiable by the end.. if he ever achieve anything..

Well we'll eventually find out if the end in Code Geas justifys the means..

[Majek]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

Who cares about morals? For me, what makes Geass interesting at all is Lelouch's refreshing lack of inhibitions. I've seen enough of idealistic protagonists over the years. I knew I was going to like this show back in ep 2 or so where Suzaku turned back to save a civilian and Lelouch went something like "Well, if he wants moral victories, he can have them."

Up until now, the story sure hasn't been kind to Suzaku's way either. Just look at what happened after he stopped the fight between the terrorists and the Britannian soldiers.
Lelouch, on the other hand, has had huge successes with his opposite way.

From here, I see two routes:
1. After walking a long and drama-filled road, Suzaku finally reaps the results of his tireless niceness and somehow turns Lelouch into a nice guy. Happy end, optionally with Lelouch dying having realized his mistakes, Darth Vader style (which would kind of make Suzaku the hero and make the ending bittersweet, which would be kind of interesting as well). Standard idealistic, morally and politically correct anime ending, in other words. Nice enough to make you naseous.
2. Despite fighting tirelessly for the length of the series, Suzaku fails. Lelouch, on the other hand, succeeds, thus proving that being a Nice Guy and having Morals and Values isn't enough in the real world. Optionally, Lelouch is forced to kill Suzaku, who won't give up on his principles. Potentially very dark ending, and certainly a lot more interesting than most anime endings are.

I don't think I need to say I hope for the second but expect the first. :/

There have been plenty of amoral portagonists over the years as well. Too many. Besides the real world has enough of them why should there be more in ficiotn as well.

So hope for something better is nausesous? No wonder the real world is such a bad place to live in.

The seconds ending wouldn't acomplish anything other that appease the people who just want a dark ending. Why should it be proved that revenge is the right thing? It's only brings more pain and suffering. No end justifies the means because you always lose everything ion the process. In the end you can only ponder if this was really worth it all.
If it comes to Lelouch killing Suzaku that can only mean he already lost everything ( Nanaly and all the other girls ) and he knows no other way than death a misery. In that ending CC would probalby give him a mery killing because he can't remain sane if he follows the path he's taking now till the very end.

Really a way to insure more suicides among fans and death threats and to not teach any lesson at all.

Eitherway boht of you ending ideas are bad.

The best edning would have to involve evolved views from both Lulu and Suzaku preferably not on deathbed. It sucks when on has to die that the other learns something. A good storyteller can evolve charaters without that and can make a happy ending more satisfing and realistic at once that some one way good triumps over evil or the end justifies the means aka evil over good.

[Xellos-_^]

Lulu reminds quite a bit of Reinheart Von Lomegrahm form Legend of Galactic Heros.

- Both are sis-con
- trying to make a safe world for thier sister
- a good friend that can act as thier conscience + loads of yaoi vibes for the fangirls
- extremely intelligent, althought lulu hasn't shown that much ability yet.
- both sees people as nothing more then a chess piece.

I see lulu if continue down this path turning more and more like Light. He won't intentionally hurt people but he will get to the point where he will used them up without a 2nd thought and anyone getting his way be kill. But since this is Sunrise, we will never see lulu go this route, he realize his mistake in the last ep and turn everything over to lacus and go back to being good old lulu.

[Jewelray]

Originally Posted by Majek

The seconds ending wouldn't acomplish anything other that appease the people who just want a dark ending. Why should it be proved that revenge is the right thing? It's only brings more pain and suffering. No end justifies the means because you always lose everything ion the process. In the end you can only ponder if this was really worth it all.
If it comes to Lelouch killing Suzaku that can only mean he already lost everything ( Nanaly and all the other girls ) and he knows no other way than death a misery. In that ending CC would probalby give him a mery killing because he can't remain sane if he follows the path he's taking now till the very end.

Good thing episode 8 made it pretty clear it won't turn out like that. I thought the whole "protecting the weak" thing was just what he was using to justify his revenge, but he might actually believe it. Which means he won't get too nuts and kill his friends or become a real villain later on.

I don't think there are too many shows that have messages that are actually all that morbid or cynical. Especially because people have been making gundam connections since the beginning with Code Geass, it would be nice to see it break out of the plot that would be the most predictable. Having Lelouch go completely nuts, become a villain, and then have him succeed in the end wouldn't necessarily mean that the show is saying revenge is a good thing. There are other ways to get across 'the ends don't justify the means' without spoon feeding it to the audience. Lelouch creating a new world based one his 'moral ideals' through his current methods, and then having that world be just as bad if not worse than Britania, is another way to get across a similar message.

But I know that isn't going to happen. There is most likely going to be a happy ending with an uplifting message, told in the usual way, because no one has the balls to do otherwise.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Jewelray

Good thing episode 8 made it pretty clear it won't turn out like that. I thought the whole "protecting the weak" thing was just what he was using to justify his revenge, but he might actually believe it. Which means he won't get too nuts and kill his friends or become a real villain later on.

I don't think there are too many shows that have messages that are actually all that morbid or cynical. Especially because people have been making gundam connections since the beginning with Code Geass, it would be nice to see it break out of the plot that would be the most predictable. Having Lelouch go completely nuts, become a villain, and then have him succeed in the end wouldn't necessarily mean that the show is saying revenge is a good thing. There are other ways to get across 'the ends don't justify the means' without spoon feeding it to the audience. Lelouch creating a new world based one his 'moral ideals' through his current methods, and then having that world be just as bad if not worse than Britania, is another way to get across a similar message.

But I know that isn't going to happen. There is most likely going to be a happy ending with an uplifting message, told in the usual way, because no one has the balls to do otherwise.

Try Legend of Galactic Heros.

[TheFluff]

@Majek: What? This is a work of fiction, not a moral code that tells you how you should live.
The point was that the nice, morally "right" endings have been done halfway to the Andromeda galaxy by now, and with a show like Code Geass, it's BOUND to end up as mile-long-moral-pointer kind of ending, like a fable by Aesop. While parents with kids gradeschool age might appreciate that, it makes for a rather boring and predictable story.

My "predictions" of the ending had very little to do with details, it was more an attempt to clarify my thoughts on which moral way the ending might take. There might be a "third way" where noone succeds and we're left to decide for ourselves whom was right, but I find that kind of unlikely.

[Jewelray]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Try Legend of Galactic Heros.

I wasn't saying it's never been done before, just that it's not the norm. But I will try to watch Legend of Galactic Heros.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

@Majek: What? This is a work of fiction, not a moral code that tells you how you should live.
The point was that the nice, morally "right" endings have been done halfway to the Andromeda galaxy by now, and with a show like Code Geass, it's BOUND to end up as mile-long-moral-pointer kind of ending, like a fable by Aesop. While parents with kids gradeschool age might appreciate that, it makes for a rather boring and predictable story.

My "predictions" of the ending had very little to do with details, it was more an attempt to clarify my thoughts on which moral way the ending might take. There might be a "third way" where noone succeds and we're left to decide for ourselves whom was right, but I find that kind of unlikely.

Every work of fiction has moral pointers in it.
And a morally "right" ending if done right is better than anything else. But they don't do them right anymore these days :/

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Good thing episode 8 made it pretty clear it won't turn out like that. I thought the whole "protecting the weak" thing was just what he was using to justify his revenge, but he might actually believe it. Which means he won't get too nuts and kill his friends or become a real villain later on.

Well, I think the "protecting the weak" thing was just a propaganda myself, which means he never once believed it.

As I sad before, the fact that he used the bombs to improve public relations means rescuing of hostages isn't what it was all about.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well, I think the "protecting the weak" thing was just a propaganda myself, which means he never once believed it.

As I sad before, the fact that he used the bombs to improve public relations means rescuing of hostages isn't what it was all about.

no actually i strongly believe that he does intend to protect the weak but a means of destroying the biggest threat to them...his father the king...
he has already tasted the bitterness of how someone strong can pick on the weak so i believe that he wont do the same...

and the bomb bit...sure it was to gain points with the other side but he did it without hurting anyone...a crime? not that i can think of...just a pile of rubble at the end no dead corpse...and since while hes there why not kill 2 birds with one stone? :3
i mean the act of going into the building in the first place to rescue the people was already an act to gain points already so he might as well have multiplied the effect of it with the bomb...

[Matrim]

There have been plenty of amoral portagonists over the years as well. Too many. Besides the real world has enough of them why should there be more in ficiotn as well.

Exactly because there are many of them in the world - I for one like some degree of realism in the things I watch and "gray" antiheroes (or at least heroes with more flexible morality) are a lot more realistic than someone who would not do "a wrong thing" even if this endangers not only his life but the lives of all people around the world. But screw realism - it's also a lot more interesting to watch. In anime, idealistic do-gooders are everywhere, I am just tired of this archetype, I want to see something different. I am not fan of Lelouche by any means, he is unbearably arrogant, IMHO, but at least, unlike Suzaku, he is not totally predictable and boring.

The seconds ending wouldn't acomplish anything other that appease the people who just want a dark ending.

So? Using the same logic we can say that a happy ending won't achieve anything but satisfy the people who want a happy ending. The only difference is that fans of happy endings happen to be a majority.

I don't think I need to say I hope for the second but expect the first. :/

Yes, same here. I just hope the ending won't be as unbearably cheesy and happy and things won't go entirely in the way of the protagonists as in some other recent SUNRISE series.

[antheonoileo]

Morality ? I dun really think people can justify others using their own morality.

1. Given Lulu's position, who is good enough to be able to say he is wrong ? His experience & grudge, his cared people, and his ability particularly the new power all lead to his actions. In my point, it's human nature, different from the godlike kind Suzaku who I cannot understand (I mean, his father's death, his invaded country, his ill-treated fellows and he can still serve in the empire's army and point his guns toward his compatriots - even that they are considered terrorists but what they fight for is their own country's independence. I dun say they are right but he can kill them easily when still believes that he is totally right and innocent ? Besides, I dun really think that all of them are terrorists in its exact meaning. The ones in ep 8, right, but some others may be called guerilla given they have support from all the people in the area. I believe that the real terrorists in ep 1 & 7 are the Britanian)

So, personally, it hard to say who is right or wrong (though I dun understand Suzaku, I cannot say he is wrong either). But who cares ? Lulu is an interesting characters without whom the series will become trash while without the boring Suzaku, it is still ok. Come to think of it, without Suzaku's appearance, Lulu still can make some changes if not innovation, but without Lulu's actions, using only his Lancelot and relationship with the princess (who - if as idiot as directly support his ideal - will be eliminated by her father the way little-Lulu was) can create nothing.

2. Morality in larger view: in history, though some nation can gain independence and human right for their race quite peacefully (not really without blood though), this always required pre-condition: the empire 's weakening or even collapes or a big change in international context like after the WW2. Provided the background in the anime, I doubt that Japanese, or 11, can gain anything without violence then. So, they have 2.5 options: fight for their independent or peacefully live like good creatures and/or try to be an honored Britanian like somebody Remember that with this extreme case, they are very ill-treated and their lives have no value - they can be killed without mercy as if they are some kind of animals (see ep 1, 7) and the discrimination here is no less than apartheid (without any international intervention/help). If you were an 11, which option would you choose ?

Besides, I dunno why but the anime - purposely or not - gives me the feeling that 11s lives have much less value than Britanian - not in the Britanian's mind but also in the producers' (maybe it is just some kind of effect). But it is true in reality: an US person's life is more valued than 10 Irags (I dun say US is Britanian though) as inequality is still exist everywhere. We usually require the "terrorist" 11s not to kill Britanian but only few dare and are able to require the Britanian army not to kill 11s. Do you know what "peace" here means?

If means THE PEACE BETWEEN THE CATTLE AND COWBOYS

My ideal is not considering so much on blood or peace (of course peace is preferable), but the equal human right. So if peaceful methods can bring out that, it is the ideal one - which means if, by miracle (and without Lulu's moves), Suzaku succeeds, then he is right. If not, then Lulu is correct (though it maybe his act ^_^) that "Only those who prepare to be killed, can kill"

[evil|plushie]

Technically, Suzaku and Lelouch are both the same, traitors to their country who wish to see the original state of their country destroyed. Lelouch wants to destroy Britiannia and the royals, Suzaku wants to destroy all trace of Japan by helping the british and then reforming them from within.

And yes, I'm sick of kira-complex characters. Moral endings? Moral pointers? Bleh. I want heroes who actually seemed to have lived life instead of acting like sheltered princes and princesses.

[Clarste]

Suzaku doesn't dislike Japan, he just sees no point in valuing a "nation" over its people. Igniting another war could hardly be considered good for the Japanese people. Pragmatism over pride. Honestly, from his point of view, fighting a one-man war against Britannia is even more impractical than changing it from within as an officer.

About the ending thing, I can see a pseudo-happy ending where Lelouch tricks Suzaku into "defeating" Zero after Lelouch has already crushed Britannia, showing both that Lelouch is successful and that idealists are needed to escape the cycle of violence. Well, I guess that'd just be Lelouch winning.

[antheonoileo]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Technically, Suzaku and Lelouch are both the same, traitors to their country who wish to see the original state of their country destroyed. Lelouch wants to destroy Britiannia and the royals, Suzaku wants to destroy all trace of Japan by helping the british and then reforming them from within.

Thinking more about it, both of them choose the bloody way. Lulu will kill those preventing him from destroying the empire while Suzaku will kill those he is ordered to. The only thing that make Lulu a so-called devil and Suzaku a so-called god (I really hate the concept of devil and god >*<) is that Lulu may kill some innocent people in the future if he thinks it is needed while Suzaku won't even if it against the orders, of course except those indirectly and unintensionally killed by him (he won't know about the "indirectly" but he will cry a lot for the "unintensionally killed" - if there are -and that will waste me 2->30 minutes of watching him being sad and recovered blah blah)

I think Suzaku is really a weird case as he is built as an action hero, who is believed to fight against the evil, but in fact he chooses to fight - repeat - fight for the evil, expecting that the evil will become the good one ??????? How to say about it ? Maybe the thought justify the means ?

Edit: like i said in the previous post. Though "people" is ussually more important than "nation", but the real question here is not whether to chose "people" or "nation" but "human" or "cattle" ^_^ And even if a one-man war is impossible for Suzaku, he knows that he can side with many allies if he chooses to fight against the empire. Yes, he may still find some allies in the government now who know ^_^

[evil|plushie]

Technically, Suzaku will kill the innocent, provided he doesn't know they're innocent. Just like the shinjuku incident, it's shown that he will gladly kick the ass of anyone he thinks is on the wrong side.

[Cloudy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

If it was a all out civil war then your are right but the kind of fights i am thinking of has more to do with what happen in the Tang Dynast when the Tang prince trap his brother in the gate to the imperial palace and kill them both and later force his father into retirement. There is also the Ching Dynasty where the imperial succession has a large number of causalties but never a open civil war. It was all done in the shadows with poison and a knief in the dark.

There is a same case during the Qing dynatsy,when the emperor Yong Zheng was a prince he asked his men to correct the letter stating that his brother was chosen by the emperor Kang Xi to become the successor of him before Kang Xi is dead.In doing so,he became the emperor and banished or killed his brother.