[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Except Meta-Beatrice is not Piece-Beatrice and she doesn't hide this fact, so this doesn't follow from the rest of your post.

I'm not saying they are the same person. Meta-Beatrice claims that she personally was responsible for all the murders before EP3. Her whole explanation for the gameboard depends on that claim, since that's the setting for the fantasy story she's telling. Her very existence is based on this answer to the Rokkenjima mystery.

Since she claims to actually be the killer herself, she needs her personality to match what we know about that killer. Therefore, the events on the gameboard necessarily influence her behavior.

[AuraTwilight]

Except that doesn't actually hold up when you consider that Beatrice doesn't bother keeping her own magical narrative consistent from episode to episode and in line with the Meta-World narrative.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Except that doesn't actually hold up when you consider that Beatrice doesn't bother keeping her own magical narrative consistent from episode to episode and in line with the Meta-World narrative.

Not sure what part you're talking about. Beatrice goes to pretty great lengths to illustrate her transition from heartless murderer to a person determined to atone for her sins. That artificial story arc lasts most of EP3. As for Virgilia's personality, her role is to get Battler to keep playing the game. Once she "revealed her true nature" at the end of EP3, there was no need to make her a sympathetic character again for a while.

How Beatrice decides to commit the crimes changes drastically in each episode. However, it's part of her character to do things on a whim, just for the hell of it. So that alone doesn't qualify as a plot hole as long as she can think of a plausible excuse.

[AuraTwilight]

Not sure what part you're talking about.

Episode four comes to mind, where Meta and Piece Beatrice literally talk to each other

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Episode four comes to mind, where Meta and Piece Beatrice literally talk to each other

Well, that's more or less the point I'm making. Beatrice includes that scene to explain why piece-Beatrice on the balcony had an abrupt attitude change, which piece-Battler saw. As I said, she's matching her personality to what we know of "the killer".

Obviously Beatrice has many motives beyond just playing the role of the culprit, but acting the part of the culprit is clearly one thing she does throughout most of the question arcs.

[AuraTwilight]

But that scene directly contradicts your thesis of Beatrice presenting herself and her Piece-Self as the same cognitive entity to Battler.

[Kiltias]

Say is the manga canon?

I know its been done more than enough but from what I can tell it certainly has quite the amount of things leading to Rosa.

Examples:
The letters Nanjos son, Sabakichi and Ange received being adressed to Hokkaido which is where Rosa was with "her boyfriend" (Sent at the 3rd, received after incident) or Evatrice mentioning Rosas past intentions of becoming a witch and believing in the forest witch and wishing to fly around like a butterfly as well as her relation to spider webs and having said herself she tried to solve the riddle in the past.
And she trapped butterflied in webs while the people on the Island were once referred as butterflies.



Just feeling kinda mindf'd now.
Ryukishi is at the very least trying to make it look like Rosa and that REALLY hard as said, above are just examples, there is tons.
I don't care if its a Red Herring or Truth, Ryukishi is putting on massive amounts of Rosatrice things, at least I understand why people believe it so much now.
Maria: "Beatrice turns to Butterflies!Uuu-"
Evatrice: "Yep, you told me that you wanted to become a Butterfly and flutter around the Garden." "You told me that you wish to become a witch when you were young. "How about dancing in this eternal dream?"
Dammit Ryukishi.XD

On a different note:
Why did all 3 letters have 07151129 notes with them?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Say is the manga canon?

I know its been done more than enough but from what I can tell it certainly has quite the amount of things leading to Rosa.

Examples:
The letters Nanjos son, Sabakichi and Ange received being adressed to Hokkaido which is where Rosa was with "her boyfriend" (Sent at the 3rd, received after incident) or Evatrice mentioning Rosas past intentions of becoming a witch and believing in the forest witch and wishing to fly around like a butterfly as well as her relation to spider webs and having said herself she tried to solve the riddle in the past.
And she trapped butterflied in webs while the people on the Island were once referred as butterflies.

Just feeling kinda mindf'd now.
Ryukishi is at the very least trying to make it look like Rosa and that REALLY hard as said, above are just examples, there is tons.
I don't care if its a Red Herring or Truth, Ryukishi is putting on massive amounts of Rosatrice things, at least I understand why people believe it so much now.
Maria: "Beatrice turns to Butterflies!Uuu-"
Evatrice: "Yep, you told me that you wanted to become a Butterfly and flutter around the Garden." "You told me that you wish to become a witch when you were young. "How about dancing in this eternal dream?"
Dammit Ryukishi.XD

Ryukishi said he would add extra clues in the manga, which is why in EP 8 manga version the game that Ange plays with her relatives is pretty different and filled with clues. However I don't know if he started adding clues right from the first volumes of the manga or in those he gave the manga authors more freedom.

If i don't remember wrong in EP 3 there were clues pointing to Kyrie/Kyrie's gun being the one who shoot at Hideyoshi for example.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

On a different note:
Why did all 3 letters have 07151129 notes with them?

That number was required to access to the bank account.

[Drifloon]

If i don't remember wrong in EP 3 there were clues pointing to Kyrie/Kyrie's gun being the one who shoot at Hideyoshi for example.

Which is really weird, because the VN text implies that Rudolf's gun was used.

I wonder if they changed that line in the PS3 version too? I can definitely imagine Kyrie shooting Hideyoshi better than I can Rudolf, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's something Ryukishi changed his mind on or something.

[Renall]

I would presume the manga is canon, at least in the sense that it's been said that Ryukishi has input over what gets put into it. I don't think they'd just make up new details without consulting him, and if a detail were incongruous with what he intended he'd veto it. Hopefully.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Which is really weird, because the VN text implies that Rudolf's gun was used.

I wonder if they changed that line in the PS3 version too? I can definitely imagine Kyrie shooting Hideyoshi better than I can Rudolf, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's something Ryukishi changed his mind on or something.

In itself the novel can be seen as pretty vague because, even if the gun used was the one near Rudolf's body, Rudolf and Kyrie's body were moved after they were killed and they were revived and killed many times, which might have caused the bodies to switch position.

To make things vaguer, it's also said that Hideyoshi took the gun of one of them but the novel said it could be one of the other.

So the gun that was closer to Rudolf could have belonged to Kyrie since the novel took care to say it was unknown which gun Hideyoshi took.

At least that's what is said in the fantasy scene as likely the bodies weren't moved after their dead.

Due to the vagueness of the novel I like to think the manga is giving us an hint about Hideyoshi being shoot by Kyrie or being betrayed by her (in the magic scene he's shoot in the back). [Ep 3 chap 14]

Interesting enought the anime (Ep 16) uses a gun that's far from both.

On a sidenote I've always thought that EvaBeatrice represented the alliance between Yasu and Eva so in the mystery side she was nothing else but a Yasu who had sided with Eva which makes rather interesting her argument with MetaBeato as it shows the two Beatos having different goals.
MetaBeato wants to be acknowledged by MetaBattler but EvaBeatrice has no such goal, nor care for MetaBattler who, in a discussion, is defined as a person with which EvaBeatrice wasn't supposed to interact (and, interesting enough, it will be Battler who'll 'force her' to interact with him)

"I'm telling you, that is not the problem...! If you act so undignified and cruel, ...umm, some people might take it badly..."
"..............................You mean, your opponent in that game, who I heard you were fighting with somewhere? Ronove told me."
"......D, damn that blabbermouth. .........Well, to be perfectly honest, that's how it is. If you go a little too far, umm, ...that person will object, you see?"
"It's not like there's any need for them to tell you to pass it on instead of objecting directly. ...That coward."
".........Well, that person is a resident of a different world from this one. There's no choice but to use me as an intermediary. Well, that's beside the point but-"
"........................Which means that this person can't interact with me even if they want to. And I can't interact with them even if I want to either. Should I view this as an unrelated person from a world so far away?"
"H, hmm. ......For example, perhaps you could say these worlds are like very close parallel lines. The worlds are very nearby, but because they are parallel lines, they will never cross. For the time being, you may view that world in such a manner."
"They never cross. Which means, ............that world has nothing to do with me. ...If you're telling me to be prudent because you are speaking for that person, please pass this message on to them."
"Tell that person? What should I say...?"
"It's none of your business, so disappear, granny. Why don't you just give up and die...?"
"...............Whaa..."
"...Oh, I'm sorry. Since it was a friend of yours, I just imagined that she'd be a woman. By 'granny', I'm definitely not talking about you, Predecessor-sama, so please forgive me. *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*...!"
When she spoke, the witch was looking straight into Beato's eyes.
...Anyone in that place would be able to figure it out just by looking.
"............Predecessor-sama. There is something I find very strange. ...Why do you have to play a game with someone from another world, and have him accept that you are a witch?"
"Well, about that, ...that is because making all humans accept the existence of witches is related to perfect control. There was a single holdout, and he just won't accept me as a witch."
".........Why is it that you need the approval of a human? Witches are witches, and can use magic, so why do we need to be accepted by humans?"
"...Mu, .........well, like I said earlier, that which is called magic is..."
"I am a witch. I can use magic without anyone's approval in particular, so what's your point......?"
"In this world, right? However, since that person will not accept it, umm, ...umumu, how should I explain it..."
"......I don't need an explanation. After all, isn't this all about a different world that never crosses this one? In other words, it's just as though that world doesn't exist.
............Whether you're fighting in a game in another world, or talking about your delusions, that doesn't change a-nything. ......I'll say it again. It has nothing to do with me. And, I am already a witch."
"Predecessor-sama, somehow or another, it seems that you can't become a witch as long as this person doesn't accept you, but I'm different. Even though no one has accepted me, I am already an excellent witch. .........Since you are my predecessor, I will formally pay you respect, but that is out of good will, not out of duty.
......I won't ask for your advice anymore, because I clearly know what I should do and how I should play from now on.
.........So I will carry out the murder of 13 people as a final act of respect for you. However, there is absolutely no reason for you to interfere with the methods I use, and what I do after that. ...............Therefore, I'll be counting on you in that regard."

Interesting enough Battler deals with 2 Beato even in EP 4, and although they're apparently the same person the first loses heart when he can't remember his sin (same as MetaBeatrice) while the second is... cold.

The witch who had questioned Battler hid herself, and the other witch, who had appeared from behind, remained.
She was certainly identical, the same witch, .........but her expression was somehow indifferent and ice-cold, ......completely removed from the one who, despite seeming drunk up until then, had been in high spirits.
"............Hey!! Are you listening?! Isn't this enough for that test thing?! I don't care whether I passed or failed! I won't be satisfied until I can bash your face!! Come down here!! Or else open this door...!!"
The witch did not answer.
Her eyes were as ice-cold as Battler's shoulders.
......She was clearly a different person since the time she had first appeared on that balcony.
The witch gazed into my eyes, ......and gave two small shakes of the head.
Even without words, I was able to gather that she was expressing some kind of disappointment...
Without saying anything, the witch turned on her heels.
After that, only Battler remained, the cold rain still beating down on him.........

Ep 5 too has two Beatos, one who's comatose and the other who's on the gameboard and, although the fantasy narrative presents Beato as on Natsuhi's side we know that actually it was Yasu who worked to put her in troubles, again presenting a dualism.

And we've 2 Beato even in Ep 6 and one of them can't care less about Battler and don't interact with him while the other does. Interesting enough the one we call Beato the elder is however close to the other Beato and apparently seems to have the same goal as her although ChickBeato's motive is that she wants to please Battler by becoming the Beato he wanted her to be while Beato the elder doesn't share this feeling and, although presented as a piece that's from the past, she interacts with the present.

If we assume Beato the elder is actually PieceBeato and that Yasu began to write tales in which she figured were written prior to Battler's return and therefore prior to trying to send a message to him she's technically a Beato of the past who originally had a completely different goal than 'making Battler remember' although in the end she also tried to work to help the other Beato to reach her own goal.

Yes, young Beato is defined as a piece that Battler 'set on the gameboard' but I wonder if the gameboard involved is the one of the mystery tale or a meta one.
Besides MetaBattler too was defined as a piece in the beginning and, although he looks like he wants to challenge Erika, in truth is possible he was using Erika to have Beato remember. In short he was sort of challenging her in a gentler way than the one Beato used with him.

To make short a long story I'm still of the opinion that the goal of MetaBeato and PieceBeato aren't exactly matching and that PieceBeato is a piece that MetaBeato is trying to use to reach her own goal.

There's also this interesting bit of discussion in Our Confession between Shannon and Beato:

"You have no regrets?"
"...None. It is all as Beatrice-sama wills."

Although the magic side (which we're not shown) might have showed us a Shannon that had, as goal, to marry George and was kidnapped against her will, we know that in the mystery side Shannon orchestrated her own disapearence and here she's willing to put aside her own supposed goal to comply with Beato's wishes. Kanon will do more or less the same although we're told that in the fantasy side we'll see him fighting Beato with all his might which seems to prove the scenes of Kanon and Shannon obeying to Beato don't belong to the magic side Battler was supposed to see.

So, Shannon's goal here seems more to fulfill MetaBeato's will than her own.
If she and MetaBeato were the same person it'll look like Yasu is insane but if she's just a character in MetaBeato's story it'll make more sense that she will accept the author's goal as her own.

[Although a good writer shoulden't force a goal on a character... however it's possible that the 'forcing' represents that the real Shannon wasn't a killer but that in the story her PieceVersion becomes one to fulfil the author's purpose more than the purpose of the real Shannon. Due to this her actions were 'forced' as they wouldn't fit the real Shannon but they needed to be as such to fit with MetaBeato's purposes]

Another sidenote.

In Ep 5 Natsuhi said she confessed being the cause of the servant's dead in front of the servant's husband grave few years ago.

Although likely Natsuhi didn't mean to be heard it's possible she traveled to where the guy was buried with someone else (for example Shannon) and this person overheard her saying so without her noticing. This would explain why Yasu knows Natsuhi caused the baby to fall a thing Natsuhi apparently didn't tell anyone.

Of course another possibility is that, since Ep 5 was written by Battler, it was Toya who found out this. Since it's said that the servant and the baby were rushed to the hospital both apparently still alive the servant might have said something like 'madam pushed me' but the whole thing was hushed by the Ushiromiya's money or whoever picked up the servant's confession didn't dare to report it to the police in fear of the Ushiromiya's power and due to lack of proof and that tattled it out only after the incident, helping to build up a Natsuhi culprit theory in Toya's time.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Which is really weird, because the VN text implies that Rudolf's gun was used.

I wonder if they changed that line in the PS3 version too? I can definitely imagine Kyrie shooting Hideyoshi better than I can Rudolf, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's something Ryukishi changed his mind on or something.

I think he noticed that some elements of EP3 were pretty vague and out of context the way he presented it. I liked this kind of presentation, but it was never picked up again during the VN, so he might have found it necessary to elaborate in other media.

The manga also adds the line "Eva did not kill Hideyoshi.", the novel and console version removed the red on the line "the above 15 people are dead" when Evatrice counts Kanon and Shannon seperately.

[Renall]

It's easy to imagine that, yeah. There's a lot of things that would be clearer to convey in a manga or animated format, but I don't really trust anything from the anime because it was a mess visually. The manga seems to be kept on a considerably tighter leash, so if there's additional hints there they're probably reliable.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

But that scene directly contradicts your thesis of Beatrice presenting herself and her Piece-Self as the same cognitive entity to Battler.

Mind if I ask what your explanation for that scene is?

[AuraTwilight]

Define what you want me to explain. It's literally pretty clear-cut, isn't it? The two Beatrices talk, and then the Meta-self takes over the Piece-self for a heavy plot rewrite.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Define what you want me to explain. It's literally pretty clear-cut, isn't it? The two Beatrices talk, and then the Meta-self takes over the Piece-self for a heavy plot rewrite.

Well, why does meta-Beatrice show Battler this transition, and what's the difference between the old and new Beatrice? You're calling one of them piece and the other meta, but the piece version disappears in a meta scene, and the meta version becomes the character on the game board.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, why does meta-Beatrice show Battler this transition, and what's the difference between the old and new Beatrice? You're calling one of them piece and the other meta, but the piece version disappears in a meta scene, and the meta version becomes the character on the game board.

Honestly I've been tempted to think that the one talking to Battler was the Meta version and the one that took over was the Piece version.

With this, are your regrets at an end......?
"....................................H, hmm..."
For even a hopeless bet, regrets will remain if you do not take it.
......That is enough.
The betting itself has meaning.
".........That may be true. ...In that case, this is...the end of my regrets, and my game."
What will you do...?
"...Who knows. .........I'm not interested at all anymore. ......Sorry, but I wish to leave the game board now."
.....................
......I see. ......I understand.
"I will take over for the rest of the game. .........You may rest."
"......Yeah. .............."
"All that remains, I will finish. .........You may forget everything and bury your head in your pillow. A feather futon should gently protect you from everything."
".........I'll be counting on you, ......to finish up the rest."
"Leave it to me. ......Leave everything else to me, and sleep."

Basically the Beato who takes over will finish the game (or, if you prefer, the tale who likely was supposed to have a sad ending like the other 3) while the other will leave it because she's not interested in it anymore.

MetaBeato also said to Battler she won't finish the game, just abandon it and that's what the first Beato does.

"I am not giving up. I am just ending it. No, I won't even end it. I am just abandoning this game for all eternity."

The manga also has an interesting imagery as it shows a picture of Beato from behind but half of it is MetaBeato while the other half is the Beato talking to Battler. However it removed the scene between the two Beato which is a pity.

On a sidenote. No idea if it's a hint but in the manga version of Ep 8 Lion is shown as clearly taller than Beato.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Say is the manga canon?

I know its been done more than enough but from what I can tell it certainly has quite the amount of things leading to Rosa.

Examples:
The letters Nanjos son, Sabakichi and Ange received being adressed to Hokkaido which is where Rosa was with "her boyfriend" (Sent at the 3rd, received after incident) or Evatrice mentioning Rosas past intentions of becoming a witch and believing in the forest witch and wishing to fly around like a butterfly as well as her relation to spider webs and having said herself she tried to solve the riddle in the past.
And she trapped butterflied in webs while the people on the Island were once referred as butterflies.

It also shows Battler seeing Rosa dead with her face completely torn apart.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy

Not only in your video, Renall, but also in this thread (i think), somebody mentioned that in the meta scene, Erika threw some blue stakes at the cabinet, that could represent bullets.

KnownNoMore uses this as the explanation for Kanon no longer existing.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In the tales no one seems to notice it much.
I mean, if two servants were to tell me that my grandfather summoned demons that killed some of my relatives and made others fall in pitfalls that magically appeared first I would think they're joking then I would check if they took drugs.

Yet, Battler and Co swallowed this lie effortlessly.

If you are talking about EP4, that's not how it went. Gohda and Kumasawa never mentioned witnessing anything magical, only that Kinzo had minions and that they were killing people as some kind of ceremony. Battler didn't hear anything about magic until Jessica's phone call... Well, that's how it was for Piece-Battler. Meta-Battler is a different story.

Then again, in Our Confessions Krauss and Natsuhi brazenly claimed there to be a demon.

Originally Posted by Renall

And yet she's presenting them with their relatives with their faces sanded off. Even if it's fake, and some of them know it's fake, at least one person does not know this. To suggest the expected reaction to this is "Well shit, I better buckle down and solve that word puzzle while some face-mangling lunatic is running around" seems a bit curious at best.

It's illogical. It's that whole coy girl in love thing. She doesn't expect that reaction, but she hopes for it to work out somehow anyway.

Not everything she does has to, or even should, make logical sense.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Let's look at it this way, though. Most people are fairly sure that Yasu-culprit was Ryuukishi's intended answer. But the majority of people also seem less than satisfied with all the motives for Yasu that have been raised so far.

I've got a question then: why are we so sure that Yasu is the killer on the gameboard? I don't say that to imply that there's no good reason, but because I want to be specific. Is there anything that happens on the board that proves Yasu killed those people, or is our certainty only based on things that happened off the gameboard, in the Core Arcs, or in the Ryuukishi interviews?

There isn't really anything. Which is much of the reason I don't think there is a game board motive. In fact, I'd go as far to say that if you are searching for game-board motives without the meta-world, you also would have to look at each game-board as its own story, because once you even start having to cross-reference multiple games, (multiple alternate realities of "Yasus") you're already looking at it from a meta-perspective.

And the results by looking at each game individually are quite different from looking at the whole story from a meta perspective...

Originally Posted by Renall

God only knows what happened in Alliance

Actually, that thing about Kanon being the 9th victim tells us more than I had originally thought. If you make the reasonable assumption that "Kyrie's group" really means Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon, and Kanon then that means there are only 10 candidates for the 8 people who died before him: The 6 FT victims, the 2 ST victims, and Gohda and Kumasawa. If G&K were actually killed after Kanon it would mean that all of the FT and ST victims were truly dead when Kanon was killed. And if G&K were killed before Kanon, it would mean that exactly 2 of the FT and ST "victims" were still alive when Kanon was killed.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, why does meta-Beatrice show Battler this transition, and what's the difference between the old and new Beatrice? You're calling one of them piece and the other meta, but the piece version disappears in a meta scene, and the meta version becomes the character on the game board.

The intent is obvious; Beatrice is showing Battler that his failing to remember is literally derailing the plat.