Fate/Zero - Spoilers & Speculation (for Light Novel and Drama CD public only)

[Yuutsu]

WAIT A MOMENT. Episode 18 is a RECAP?.....

Do they even have the time to afford for recaps? There's quite a bit of content in the last 2 volumes. The 4th volume is ESPECIALLY dense in important scenes. I do not see how they will be able to fit it all into 12 episodes, much less have room to spare. D:

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Yuutsu

WAIT A MOMENT. Episode 18 is a RECAP?.....

Do they even have the time to afford for recaps? There's quite a bit of content in the last 2 volumes. The 4th volume is ESPECIALLY dense in important scenes. I do not see how they will be able to fit it all into 12 episodes, much less have room to spare. D:

Where did you get that episode 18 is a recap? All of the interviews strongly suggest otherwise, being one of the pivotal episodes that go over Kiritsugu's backstory.

EDIT: This is especially weird since we have the Remix episodes that have already aired.

[Yuutsu]

I think I may have jumped the gun. I somehow misinterpreted intermission to mean recap...

But intermission can really just mean... intermission.

If it is a recap of Kiritsugu's childhood, then the word intermission would make a lot of sense.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Yuutsu

I think I may have jumped the gun. I somehow misinterpreted intermission to mean recap...

But intermission can really just mean... intermission.

If it is a recap of Kiritsugu's childhood, then the word intermission would make a lot of sense.

What I meant by Intermission, I was referring to the beginning section of Vol 4 that was named "Intermission", as opposed to the other sections that had timestamps for names.

I suppose it might have been slightly confusing, since the adaptation should still be at Vol 3 by episode 17.

[Archer]

According to the preview, it seems that Lancer's downfall is next episode, and not the episode after next like I assumed. I suppose this works, since Kirei's revelation can be the episode after that.

All in all, it seems like that we'll be ending Vol. 3 at around episode 19, which gives plenty of time for the final volume.

[Klashikari]

The timing is definitely right and I wouldn't be surprised if they shuffle a bit the events for Episode 17 (ending it with Kiritsugu loathing Heroes).
Which probably means they will end Episode 16 with Lancer killing himself, leaving it as a cliffhanger or ending it with Saber and Iri facing Kiritsugu after the former had to put Kayneth out of his misery.

The second option is a tad better (since it would be a tad awkward to have the last scene at the start of an ep), although it would pack tons of things in ep 16 as result.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The second option is a tad better (since it would be a tad awkward to have the last scene at the start of an ep), although it would pack tons of things in ep 16 as result.

I agree. The demise of the Lancer team should be kept in its entirety, since the entire event is meant to show the methods that Kiritsugu uses against his targets to Irisviel and Saber for the first time. Separating them would give it less of an impact.

If that occurs, then I can see episode 17 starting out with Kirei discovering Risei's body, then finishing with Saber confronting Kiritsugu. At least, that's how I would direct it, since the effects of arranging events like so has several major effects:

- Having these two events occur side by side would allow the audience to see exactly the difference between the two characters.

- It would also contrast directly with a similar event in episode one, where Kirei and Kiritsugu tried to analyze each other's character. The audience would be able to see the how well the characters' expectations of each other holds up to the real thing.

- Most importantly, by going back to that pivotal event in episode one, the show allows the focus back onto the two primary characters, Kirei and Kiritsugu. It's essentially like saying "from the very start, these two have been the major players in this war and we'd like to remind you of that".

Episode 17 can also be used for a launching pad to fully flesh out Kiritsugu's character too, since that is the first time the audience really gets to see what Kiritsugu is thinking. Episode 18 being Kiritsugu's flashback would really drive that home.

[Doria]

Although you have to work in Kayneth visiting Risei and killing him before you can conclude the Lancer/Kayneth storyline... I thought that he got his sole command seal at that time, since his wife has (shortly to be had) the rest.

Which... will be a lot to fit into an episode. But I suppose manageable, if you pretty much restrict the episode to the directly involved characters. You can also probably compress Sola's fate into the latter section. Just move her maiming post-Kayneth talk with Risei.

You'll probably want to shorten Kayneth berating Lancer, too, as otherwise, the whole episode is spent with him wheeling himself around...

That said, the adaptation has been strenuously faithful to the novel, so I don't know how much moving around of events they're really going to do, even if it's minor.

Looking forward to it, though. It's a painful sequence.

I think for the most part, that the people least deserving get the happiest endings (see Ryuu and Caster for proof of that), and that the converse tends to hold true, as well. Kiritsugu is kind of a mixed bag, since he does terrible things for the right reasons, so he gets an awful ending, with a hint of redemption.

[Ringil]

Originally Posted by giorno

@Craxuan see GDB's post for how Ilya held down herakles in UBW


my reply was to answer your post in which it seemed to me that you *were* making a comparison between the two using the respective battles against gilgamesh as proof. And the gist of it was that just because zerozerker has an NP that is well suited to counter Gil doesn't mean he's stronger than hreakles, and that at the end of the day, KOH is only effective because Gil is playing around and not taking him seriously at all

just consider that out of all the servants between zero and FSN, only Gil, saber and Alex have any decent chance of winning against herakles, whereas zerozerker, while still pretty high tier, is a lot more defeatable. I mean, you summon herakles in a HGW that doesn't involve Gil or saber, and you're almost certainly going to win. With zerozerker, one bad encounter with a medusa pulling all the stops and unleashing her mystic eyes, or attacking medea inside ryuudo, and your war might be over...

Spoiler for Fate/Zero Berserker:

Ehh, Zerozerker has another NP on the level of Excalibur, so if Saber can beat Heracles, Zerozerker should also have a chance.

FSN Archer has a chance of beating Heracles with UBW, but its not very high. Also, Zero Caster with his super summon seems like it has a chance. Medusa could also hurt Heracles with Bellerophon, but I don't think it'd OHKO him. No one else seems to be able to touch Berserker with his ability to shrug off weak attacks.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Ringil

Spoiler for Fate/Zero Berserker:

Ehh, Zerozerker has another NP on the level of Excalibur, so if Saber can beat Heracles, Zerozerker should also have a chance.

Spoiler:

AFAWK arondight buffs the stats, it doesn't shoot laser beams, massive or otherwise. So no, he doesn't, really

FSN Archer has a chance of beating Heracles with UBW, but its not very high.

It's stupidly low. Only BPs can hurt 'zerker. Cu Culainn also has a stupidly low chance of winning, but it's just that, well, stupidly low

Also, Zero Caster with his super summon seems like it has a chance.

more like it has a chance not to get killed

Medusa could also hurt Heracles with Bellerophon, but I don't think it'd OHKO him.

It wouldn't. And afterwards...i don't remember rider's stats, but she might not even be able to kill him anymore at all...

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by giorno

Spoiler:

AFAWK arondight buffs the stats, it doesn't shoot laser beams, massive or otherwise. So no, he doesn't, really

It's stupidly low. Only BPs can hurt 'zerker. Cu Culainn also has a stupidly low chance of winning, but it's just that, well, stupidly low


more like it has a chance not to get killed


It wouldn't. And afterwards...i don't remember rider's stats, but she might not even be able to kill him anymore at all...

What's a BP?

[giorno]

broken phantasm

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by giorno

Spoiler:

AFAWK arondight buffs the stats, it doesn't shoot laser beams, massive or otherwise. So no, he doesn't, really

It doesn't matter if the attack is a beam whatsoever. What matters however is the raw power of the NP or the attack.
Also, Caliburn even downranked by Shirou's tracing could destroy 7 of Herakles' lives.

If we consider Arondight, the parameters increase and Berserker own's strength (which is arguably superior to weakened Saber + Shirou), it is very likely he can just deal an attack that would annihilate more than 7 lives.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, Caliburn even downranked by Shirou's tracing could destroy 7 of Herakles' lives.

I always did find that to be rather ridiculous and a bit of an ass-pull. A single attack shouldn't be able to take multiple lives (not just looking at God Hand here, but in general in regards to multiple lives) unless:

1) It completely eradicates the person (we know this wasn't the case with Berserker, since he was still around afterward)
2) It's some sort of multi-stage attack like Nine-Lives, giving a chance for the opponent to revive before cutting them down again.

This is just my opinion of course, but it's one of the things that made me dislike the Fate route so much.

[Klashikari]

This is also a plot hole/device that I really don't fancy either. That said, the problem is that everything indicates that it is indeed the entire raw power of the attack that leads to the amount of damage to Berserker lives stock.

Caliburn plainly broke and emitted a flash of light similar to excalibur (only 1 single instant as Shirou stated, and "one blow" by Herakles).

Therefore, the only way to consider the whole mess is that Herakles has 12 HP, each of them having a HP value as well... which is stupid as heck but heh.

[Ringil]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It doesn't matter if the attack is a beam whatsoever. What matters however is the raw power of the NP or the attack.
Also, Caliburn even downranked by Shirou's tracing could destroy 7 of Herakles' lives.

If we consider Arondight, the parameters increase and Berserker own's strength (which is arguably superior to weakened Saber + Shirou), it is very likely he can just deal an attack that would annihilate more than 7 lives.

Yup, this. Arondight should be able to take out multiple lives of Berserker if this is considered to be legit.

Also, FSN Archer has enough BP to take out Heracles. Now whether Heracles will just let him channel UBW is a different question.

Lancer I don't think has a chance against Berserker because God Hand prevents all attacks of rank B and Gae Bolg is rank B.

[GDB]

Though Gae Bolg vs God Hand comes down to a "Does" vs "Does not" thing. God Hand "does not" allow damage from lower than A rank attacks. Gae Bolg "does" pierce the heart. So unless God Hand somehow allows the heart to be pierced but not allow it to be damaged (a pierce implies damage, though, unlike if it were merely a strike or a hit), then Gae Bolg should allow a solid blow. Once. From there, it comes down to another conflict: God Hand "does" heal vs Gae Bolg "does not" heal.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It doesn't matter if the attack is a beam whatsoever. What matters however is the raw power of the NP or the attack.
Also, Caliburn even downranked by Shirou's tracing could destroy 7 of Herakles' lives.

If we consider Arondight, the parameters increase and Berserker own's strength (which is arguably superior to weakened Saber + Shirou), it is very likely he can just deal an attack that would annihilate more than 7 lives.

I know this doesn't really make much more sense, but the way I always liked to think of it was that Caliburn somehow "cut through" the revival spells and just killed him once, the actually original life, basically. It killed him seven times in that it completely voided the revival spells, since isn't Caliburn supposed to be able to cut through anything? Including extra lives, maybe?

So in that case maybe Caliburn is the only weapon that could take more than one life at a time.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by GDB

Though Gae Bolg vs God Hand comes down to a "Does" vs "Does not" thing. God Hand "does not" allow damage from lower than A rank attacks. Gae Bolg "does" pierce the heart. So unless God Hand somehow allows the heart to be pierced but not allow it to be damaged (a pierce implies damage, though, unlike if it were merely a strike or a hit), then Gae Bolg should allow a solid blow. Once. From there, it comes down to another conflict: God Hand "does" heal vs Gae Bolg "does not" heal.

Lancer can use Runes to increase his rank, which would allow him to have Gae Bolg as a rank A NP. Without any enhancement though, GB wouldn't deal any damage at all, since God Hand literally "deny" damage of B rank or lower (it doesn't nullify, but outright make it impossible).
So since Gae Bolg cannot damage him to begin with, its effect cannot be applied at all, even if he unleash it (Luck would determine if the target manages to survive or not, which should be determined at the very moment GB is activated. Likewise, it is already "decided" it cannot connect on Herakles the very moment of the activation).

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

I know this doesn't really make much more sense, but the way I always liked to think of it was that Caliburn somehow "cut through" the revival spells and just killed him once, the actually original life, basically. It killed him seven times in that it completely voided the revival spells, since isn't Caliburn supposed to be able to cut through anything? Including extra lives, maybe?

So in that case maybe Caliburn is the only weapon that could take more than one life at a time.

No. Caliburn was never described as having any ability, except granting the immortality Arturia has benefited before receiving Avalon with Excalibur.
It has always been described as inferior to Excalibur, without any specific ability.

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense that Caliburn "bypass" God Hand considering how Herakles described the blow: he said "killed me 7 fold in one blow", which literally overkilled him (he was killed 6 times by Archer, once by rin, so for a total of 14 times), instead of saying "ignored my ability" or "depleted my remaining lives".
The way how Caliburn blow was described specifically shows it deals a certain amount of damage, without any kind of trick aside of raw power.

[GDB]

I thought Archer was 5 times? Either way it'd be overkill, though. Unless God Hand is +12 lives, not just "12 Lives", effectively making it... 13.