Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

I really don't get why you guys are so hard on the Nagi-manga arc. Sure, it's not like super-event packed, but it's given character development to characters who've needed it (mainly Nagi, but also some to Chiharu and Ayumu). I'm finding it interesting to see how Nagi's independence is growing, for one thing.

I also find it hilarious how half of the 'wow, this arc has suddenly gotten so much better now that Athene's around' is such blatant favouritism (at least wait until she's done something? I mean really - all she's done is show up in kid form for some reason. If it was anyone else, I'd bet most of you wouldn't think it was interesting.) It's also funny how all the new activity since Athene's shown up again is arguing about whether she even deserves the attention. Well, here's hoping that this turns out just to be a fluffy filler mini-arc and all the fanboys end up crying in disappointment BD

(Sorry, I'm horrible. <3)

First, I point to the fact that Athena has her own subtitle for 'Draco in Leather Pants'.

I'm with you in guessing that this chapter (300) was just fluffy filler. Probably only drawn because the executives told Hata to get it done. They probably played a part in Hina-tan being 'Mommy' as well.

When we go back to the Nagi-centric 'manga-ka' portion, and Athena fades out again, the only thing I'll miss is the interaction.

I'm enjoying the attention and activity, just because I love the debates we can get into because of it, who cares for which characters brought it about.

[madmac]

For the first point, I point to the fact that Athena has her own subtitle for 'Draco in Leather Pants'.

I'm with you in guessing that this chapter (300) was just fluffy filler. Probably only drawn because the executives told Hata to get it done. They probably played a part in Hina-tan being 'Mommy' as well.

When we go back to the Nagi-centric 'manga-ka' portion, and Athena fades out again, the only thing I'll miss is the interaction.

I don't think it's fluff, but I'm not expecting a huge drama bomb either. Introducing chibi-Athena allows for some mystery that'll be explored eventually (Come on, we all know how slow Hata's pacing is.) but in the short term it'll probably be played primarily for laughs and allows Athena to be introduced in a way that doesn't hijack the plot much.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

I really don't get why you guys are so hard on the Nagi-manga arc. Sure, it's not like super-event packed, but it's given character development to characters who've needed it (mainly Nagi, but also some to Chiharu and Ayumu). I'm finding it interesting to see how Nagi's independence is growing, for one thing.

Having issues with Nagi's arc is not the same thing as having issues with Nagi as a character. Nagi is probably my second favorite girl in the series, but I've had trouble getting into this arc. I like seeing her more independent, and I like it when the plot focuses on her, but manga art and leasing apartments just sort of leaves me cold.

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

I also find it hilarious how half of the 'wow, this arc has suddenly gotten so much better now that Athene's around' is such blatant favouritism (at least wait until she's done something? I mean really - all she's done is show up in kid form for some reason. If it was anyone else, I'd bet most of you wouldn't think it was interesting.)

Would I find "turning into a child" as interesting if it wasn't Athena? Probably not. But it's not because I love Athena, even if I do. It's because a young Athena means a lot of specific things to Hayate, so I'm looking forward to where the manga is going with it and how it's going to handle that particular aspect. (For example, Hina as a child has no real emotional connection with Hayate, so it would feel more like random pandering.)

For a Nagi example, my level of interest would be just as high if it was "Nagi turned into an adult for some mysterious reason" simply because that would also affect her current relationship with Hayate. Introducing a "why is this happening" plot thread with a popular character is a way to get readers interested. So if you find it hilarious that Athena's fans are interested in this development, I find it just as amusing that her detractors are complaining about things as simple as "building a plotline" simply because she happens to be a center component of it.

(Also, the assumption that all Athena's fans are guys. Sorry, that's just plain not true.)

[leoblack9]

I'm quite entertained by the train of thoughts, but mainly hina worshippers who started the athena bashing train again. I guess fanshippers everywhere don't give a rest when a flag starts to rise, or something.

Oh ho ho its a good start to have a nice unserious chapter once in a while, but I guess the chibi athena chapter wasn't that light hearted because of some added plot in it.

If you guys are quite serious on still bashing the recent chapters then what was about htat one chapter again where Hina had donkey ears? Geez, give it a break.

[musouka]

As an aside, Hata's blog for chapter 300 mentions that he decided on the content for this chapter independently of the character poll and that, as the author, he was surprised at Athena's move to second place. So I think that any conspiracy theories about an Athena push by the author or editors can be laid to rest, thankfully.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

As an aside, Hata's blog for chapter 300 mentions that he decided on the content for this chapter independently of the character poll and that, as the author, he was surprised at Athena's move to second place. So I think that any conspiracy theories about an Athena push by the author or editors can be laid to rest, thankfully.

Just because Hata was surprised that she arrived at 2nd place does not change the fact that the chapter seems to show none of the seriousness of the previous entries, nor the blatant comparisons to past issues of similar events.
Santa Conan chapter was also a filler and didn't seem to have any connection to events before or previous aside from a throw-away line. Unless Athena is shown to be able to control her age, that's probably where chapter 300 will be shown to lead as well.
Negating it's filler qualities on the character poll is not possible. It's likely that the chapter was finished and submitted for printing before the results were established, possibly before the polls were even opened, and while knowing that, I would still call this undiluted filler. My guess is and was that the editors were choosing to include Athena in this situation much for the same reason they wanted Hinagiku included, they're called fans, more specifically, fans with money. Hinagiku is undoubtedly the Darkhorse of the story, and Athena is the Base Breaker, we didn't need the polls to tell us that.

[musouka]

He talks about how it was sort of ironic how this chapter ended up mirroring the results of the poll. I didn't say anything about what sort of chapter it was, only that it's pretty obvious Hata wasn't trying to manipulate the poll out of some sense of favoritism towards Athena.

[zodanhko]

Whether it's a filler, like Hina's donkey-eared chapter, or not, a couple more chapters will solve that problem. Ugh...maybe...

Initially, when I saw Yozora used magic for the first time, I thought that Athena might be involved in the future since magic just won't be the same without her she is the one who's most involved in the magic side of the story. In chapter 299, Yozora went further and mentioned about the broken King's Jewel and ,ka-boom, Athena appeared at the end of the chapter. So yeah...

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Whether it's a filler, like Hina's donkey-eared chapter, or not, a couple more chapters will solve that problem. Ugh...maybe...

Initially, when I saw Yozora used magic for the first time, I thought that Athena might be involved in the future since magic just won't be the same without her she is the one who's most involved in the magic side of the story. In chapter 299, Yozora went further and mentioned about the broken King's Jewel and ,ka-boom, Athena appeared at the end of the chapter. So yeah...

Isumi or Sonia were my first thoughts when the robots were used (Sonia didn't use magic, and yet summoned robots anyways, as did Gilbert!), Athena hasn't summoned anything but swords, and has actually shown an aversion to using 'modern technology' and Isumi has used magic much more frequently, usually without any tie to Athena at all.
Mikado and Himegami haven't been shown to not use magic yet, and have the same attachment to the stones. We still don't know who Yozora's employer is.
The Athena we saw as of 299 had only appeared to Hayate, who seemed to be wishing to see her again.
Yozora has yet to be tied to anyone, much less to Athena, plus Yozora contacted her employer by phone, which Athena didn't have one of as of about a year ago, and Mikado has been shown to have one only a few days ago.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Yozora has yet to be tied to anyone, much less to Athena

I assumed the picture of the 28th she was so hot to steal had Athena ripped out of it, since it looked like you could see part of her hair ribbon. I guess it could be a guy's dark hair, but that was my immediate assumption when she mentioned that Hayate couldn't see the important part.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Isumi or Sonia were my first thoughts when the robots were used (Sonia didn't use magic, and yet summoned robots anyways, as did Gilbert!), Athena hasn't summoned anything but swords, and has actually shown an aversion to using 'modern technology' and Isumi has used magic much more frequently, usually without any tie to Athena at all.
Mikado and Himegami haven't been shown to not use magic yet, and have the same attachment to the stones. We still don't know who Yozora's employer is.
The Athena we saw as of 299 had only appeared to Hayate, who seemed to be wishing to see her again.
Yozora has yet to be tied to anyone, much less to Athena, plus Yozora contacted her employer by phone, which Athena didn't have one of as of about a year ago, and Mikado has been shown to have one only a few days ago.

Actually, Athena has summoned monsters other the than the swords. The ones in the hotel, Midas' arm, and the minotaur. Since Isumi deals with ghost everyday, I supposed she does use magic more frequently. But when I said the "magic side of the story," I was referring to the serious side of the story relating to the RG.

I see no connection between Yozora and Isumi since Isumi deals with ghosts, monsters, and the likes, and Yozora obviously doesn't belong in those categories. Yozora, like Athena and Isumi, belongs to a family of magician (or could use magic) so she wasn't just any random character, and her objective wasn't money since Nagi was already disinherited. I somewhat related Yozora to Athena because Yozora is not a normal person, and she was after the group for a specific reason, which later revealed to have something to do with the broken King's Jewel. Since there was always a connection between Athena, the King's Jewel, and the Royal Garden, it's not out of the blue that Athena appears. And, we know that Athena was part of the reasons that Nagi broke the King's Jewel. (I didn't say Yozora works for Athena.)

At the end of chapter 299, Hayate was thinking about Athena when he was pondering about the relationship of the 28th and the King's Jewel, and Athena appeared on the last panel. In chapter 300, based on what Athena said, I believe that someone is trying to enter the Royal Garden, and the whole deal with Yozora may be an opening act. I doubt that Athena appeared just because Hayate wishes to see her, since she stated that she doesn't have time although she wants to tell him many things. It sounded more like she's on a mission.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Whether it's a filler, like Hina's donkey-eared chapter, or not, a couple more chapters will solve that problem. Ugh...maybe...

The donkey-eared chapter was a waste of pages. I think that Hata realized that himself, because there was never a followup, it wasn't even mentioned. As a Hina shipper, I was more annoyed than happy.

Originally Posted by musouka

He talks about how it was sort of ironic how this chapter ended up mirroring the results of the poll. I didn't say anything about what sort of chapter it was, only that it's pretty obvious Hata wasn't trying to manipulate the poll out of some sense of favoritism towards Athena.

No, I don't think that he tried to "manipulate" anything. If so, he would have had to do that while the voting was ongoing ... still, if Hata _honestly_ was surprised that Athena would finish high (I reserve some residual doubt here), then this just shows that he's scarily out of touch with the fanbase.

I think it was me who introduced the word "favoritism" in the current discussion, so let me clarify what I mean by it: The structural favoritism which Hata continuously bestows on Athena in the story.

Each character has certain "attributes" - some strengths and some weaknesses. They have great scenes with which they shine, and then some weaknesses for which they have their comeuppance, to balance them out. Examples:

- Nagi has her good heart, alot of brains and her resources (limited now). They are tempered by her occasional delusions (towards Hayate) and her lack of common sense (due to her formerly unlimited resources.

- Maria has her perfection as maid, surrogate mother, and her all-around amazing skills as absolute overperformer. On her downside, this perfection opens her for "she's so mature" puns which come across is "she's so old", no matter how much she insists that she's a "fresh seventeen-year-old".

- Hina "is 'cooler than boys', awesome at everything, loved/respected by everyone, hero of justice". On the downside she has to fix the problems by everyone, and she is completely unable to deal with her shyness which is based on her kakkoii-dom causing a lack of self-esteem concerning her femininity.

Athena has no such balancing factors. She's obviously powerful, with Nagi-like infinite worldly resources, smart, charismatic, moe and assertive. She's designed to one-up everybody in direct contests. Not only has/had she the declared love of the male lead (nearly unheard of in endless series), in c300 she even gets to flaunt her huge bust as second making the winning Hinagiku look like a losing board, like zodanhko put so funnily. It's really just a minor detail, but oh so typical. She's richer than Nagi and knows everything about the background story! She can make big dramatic announcements which her fans can aaah and oooh to which noone needs to remember when they're broken a few chapters later, like the stars in a firework. Even her problems help her, by her dramatic "damsel in distress" pose. Where she pops up, the story revolves around her, all the time.

No balance whatsoever. No comeuppance whatsoever. No defeats (don't dare list her so-called "yielding" of Hayate to Nagi, it's as sincere as a prime minister during a close reelection campaign). Hata indulges her like a little princess. THAT is what I mean with favoritism.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena has no such balancing factors. She's obviously powerful, with Nagi-like infinite worldly resources, smart, charismatic, moe and assertive. She's designed to one-up everybody in direct contests. Not only has/had she the declared love of the male lead (nearly unheard of in endless series)

The price of having those attributes was that Athena was almost always alone because no one had the courage to approach her, unlike the rest of the girls.

Originally Posted by Mentar

in c300 she even gets to flaunt her huge bust as second making the winning Hinagiku look like a losing board, like zodanhko put so funnily .

Actually, I wasn't the one who said that.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

The price of having those attributes was that Athena was almost always alone because no one had the courage to approach her, unlike the rest of the girls.

No "price" in the story. Sorry, but "oh, I had it so hard in the past" doesn't count for me.

Actually, I wasn't the one who said that.

Ouch, you're right, it was actually surerman. Sorry

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

No "price" in the story. Sorry, but "oh, I had it so hard in the past" doesn't count for me.

Well, that's a shame. Anyway, I just wanted to point out a "balancing factor" for you; and unlike you, I think being practically alone for about 17 years is a "balance" trade-off for being rich and extremely capable. And, Athena's still pretty much has no one (girls) to have a normal conversation with, unless you include the cross-dressed Hayate.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

- Hina "is 'cooler than boys', awesome at everything, loved/respected by everyone, hero of justice". On the downside she has to fix the problems by everyone, and she is completely unable to deal with her shyness which is based on her kakkoii-dom causing a lack of self-esteem concerning her femininity.

Fixing everyone's problem is really, really exaggerating. I believe she is loved/respected by everyone because she's like an idol in the school who's capable to do everything. Well, that's not surprising, since she joined most or all the events during the school festival and won all the events she's in except for one. It seems to me that she likes being praised by the others anyway.

Her shyness is due just her tsundere personality, and she's lack in confident because this is the first time she's experiencing affections toward a boy. It has nothing to do with her helping the others. In cases of fighting for Hayate, I believe Ayumu had help Hina at least equal to what Hina had done for her.

Wait...Are you judging Hata's favoritism toward Athena because he gave her a straight-forward/bold personality too? Like Athena's not shy or lack in confident as a woman like Hina?

[GlassesLady]

Athene does have some balancing negative traits, but they're most glossed over, by both the story and the fandom. Like the whole "take a six-year-old boy and remake him into my ideal man who will take care of me forever"/"you have to be financially stable (read: filthy rich) enough to keep a girl (read: me) happy forever, or you're not allowed to have a lover" thing. I'm hoping she'll get called out on this at some point later, but for now, her worst flaws are diminished to fridge logic level.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena has no such balancing factors.

I wouldn't say that. She's frequently pessimistic about things not relating to Hayate, has difficulty asking for help (we probably could have avoided the entire Greece arc if she had reached out to someone sooner), and despite you wanting to say that it magically "doesn't count" she's also has no support network that we're aware of. She wars regularly between her more selfish impulses towards Hayate, and unlike Hinagiku, she actually had something to sacrifice at the moment she chose not to pressure him about going back to Nagi.

It's not Athena's fault she has large breasts and Hina doesn't.

Furthermore, at this point, she isn't a regular character and isn't likely to become one. Yes, she's tied to the "plot" of HnG (in the sense of it even having a plot) but as far as day to day goes, it's sort of like ragging on Hayate's brother for not being exactly the same as Wataru.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Actually, Athena has summoned monsters other the than the swords. The ones in the hotel, Midas' arm, and the minotaur. Since Isumi deals with ghost everyday, I supposed she does use magic more frequently. But when I said the "magic side of the story," I was referring to the serious side of the story relating to the RG.

I'm going to needlessly confront you about this, given my background dealing with D&D, it creates quite a different context.

Athena didn't summon those monsters, she powered the stone, which summoned those monsters, not used her own power (the monsters were destroyed when the stone was destroyed, not tied to anything that happened to Athena). The minotaur was specifically stated to be similarly summoned. I believe even Machina was hinted to be an early summon of similar origin.
Midas' arm wasn't even a summon, since Midas shares her body, that was basically a giving hard form to an attribute she already had, an enhancement if you will. Notice how it stayed attached to her the entire time. Plus it seemed to be a magical construction, while the other summoned creatures were often acting independently of their summoner, as was the last robot Yozora brought in, if not the others as well, since she actually lost control of it when trying to get it to stop attacking.

And when Midas takes his own form separate from Athena, she's apparently left with no power at all, least of all to summon Midas' arm to defend herself against him. That wouldn't be the case if it was actual summoning. Sonia, Gilbert and Yozora have summoned multiple independent creatures, which seems to be on a different level from Athena's powers. Different, not greater.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

I see no connection between Yozora and Isumi since Isumi deals with ghosts, monsters, and the likes, and Yozora obviously doesn't belong in those categories. Yozora, like Athena and Isumi, belongs to a family of magician (or could use magic) so she wasn't just any random character, and her objective wasn't money since Nagi was already disinherited. I somewhat related Yozora to Athena because Yozora is not a normal person, and she was after the group for a specific reason, which later revealed to have something to do with the broken King's Jewel. Since there was always a connection between Athena, the King's Jewel, and the Royal Garden, it's not out of the blue that Athena appears. And, we know that Athena was part of the reasons that Nagi broke the King's Jewel. (I didn't say Yozora works for Athena.)

The reason I brought Isumi up at all was pointing out how Yozora had more of a connection to Isumi than to Athena because of the summoning (Isumi hasn't summoned anything, although she did hint that she was going to summon her family, it wasn't made clear if that would have been magically or simply by calling them for the offense). It could hardly be construed as any sort of attachment to her.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

At the end of chapter 299, Hayate was thinking about Athena when he was pondering about the relationship of the 28th and the King's Jewel, and Athena appeared on the last panel. In chapter 300, based on what Athena said, I believe that someone is trying to enter the Royal Garden, and the whole deal with Yozora may be an opening act. I doubt that Athena appeared just because Hayate wishes to see her, since she stated that she doesn't have time although she wants to tell him many things. It sounded more like she's on a mission.

As I've said on MF, the likelihood of Yozora working for Athena keeps falling. Remember how Yozora is shown at one time to be talking to her probable employer on her phone? There is no indication that Athena would even be available for that style of contact, since there was no indication of any sort of tech when Hayate was running through her castle looking for her, and she point-blank stated that she didn't have a phone number or e-mail less than a year ago when Hinagiku asked her for her contact information.

Her appearance in chapters 299 and 300 is probably nothing to do with the current arcs, and thus could all have been in Hayate's head and nothing more. He does still care for her and wants to see her, we know that much. His brain being half-asleep after the day just gave the author/editors reason for her to appear.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Well, that's a shame. Anyway, I just wanted to point out a "balancing factor" for you; and unlike you, I think being practically alone for about 17 years is a "balance" trade-off for being rich and extremely capable. And, Athena's still pretty much has no one (girls) to have a normal conversation with, unless you include the cross-dressed Hayate.

Almost a balancing factor, until you realize that she did that to herself. No one forces her to be alone for all of those years, at least ten years ago she was freed from her prison of the RG and free to form the relationships that Hayate has built in a few months(!), but she apparently doesn't wish to. She could have easily integrated herself into Hinagiku's group of friends, everyone else wants to, but she chooses to stay alone.
It doesn't even seem she can hold a normal conversation with Hayate in any form, even Machina doesn't seem to have much of a friendly relationship with her.
And she has no one to blame but herself.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

I wouldn't say that. She's frequently pessimistic about things not relating to Hayate, has difficulty asking for help (we probably could have avoided the entire Greece arc if she had reached out to someone sooner), and despite you wanting to say that it magically "doesn't count" she's also has no support network that we're aware of.

And those are "balancing factors" in your book? You serious?

Our little princess has no support network? Well, no bidirectional one at least. Hayate, Hina, Nagi, Isumi - all of them busted butt and took significant risks for her sake. Maybe some day we'll see Athena returning a favor to someone but Hayate.

Or maybe you take Athena's "don't worry about me" line seriously? She's obviously in trouble again, and obviously she's going to require the help of others again without telling them the truth about it.

She wars regularly between her more selfish impulses towards Hayate, and unlike Hinagiku, she actually had something to sacrifice at the moment she chose not to pressure him about going back to Nagi.

Please. She didn't sacrifice anything (that was merely one more of her many "big announcement, soon forgotten" fireworks), she's already back in his life. She only realized Hayate's overriding obligation to Nagi sooner than he did. Was a really classy touch by the way - had Nagi not forfeited her riches, Athena would be no more. She repaid it by gifting her an empty ring case and a "Hold on to this in the meantime, I'll reclaim <Hayate> when I see fit". Some sacrifice, really

It's not Athena's fault she has large breasts and Hina doesn't.

Yes, of course ... I only mentioned it because it is so typical for how Hata deals with her. She remains the assertive flaunt-your-strengths character that the world revolves around.

Furthermore, at this point, she isn't a regular character and isn't likely to become one. Yes, she's tied to the "plot" of HnG (in the sense of it even having a plot) but as far as day to day goes, it's sort of like ragging on Hayate's brother for not being exactly the same as Wataru.

Hearing YOU say that feels kinda strange, weren't you among those who postulated the opposite (not sure, would have to look it up)? In c300 Hata consciously refreshed her special status with Hayate both ways - by having him dream of her, and having her go deredere skinship with him. Again, I can see her causing ruckus in other people's lives. Letsee how her nonexisting support network will be strained this time to save her hide once more.