[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Ithekro]

I think that theory rests on "Kanon" being killed. Meaning the servant the was "Kanon" dropped that name at took back on his real name, like he was trying to tell Jessica when he "died". Thus "Kanon" was killed...from a certain point of view.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Also, according to this theory, when the red texts about Kanon (after 2nd twilight) were declared, Kanon was still alive, so he was only wounded but not killed at that time. Contrary to the red texts.

There is a difference between "killed" and "died." So long as Kanon suffered the wound that eventually caused his death in Jessica's room, then saying that he was killed in that room is technically true. The theory is based on him surviving his wounds long enough to leave the room and meet the other servants + Nanjo. Therefore, the red text is not violated. It is a loophole similar to the one used to explain Nanjo's death in Ep. 3.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Sute443

There is a difference between "killed" and "died." So long as Kanon suffered the wound that eventually caused his death in Jessica's room, then saying that he was killed in that room is technically true. The theory is based on him surviving his wounds long enough to leave the room and meet the other servants + Nanjo. Therefore, the red text is not violated. It is a loophole similar to the one used to explain Nanjo's death in Ep. 3.

But Beato said he was killed in Jessica's room BEFORE Nanjo and Kumasawa were shown being killed in the servants room.

With Nanjo's death the loophole is: the death of some people were not stated in red until after Nanjo died. So one of those people killed Nanjo, died and then the red text was given.

But with the situation you described it doesn't work in the same manner because it was stated Kanon was killed in the room before Kumsawa and Nanjo had their necks slashed.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

But Beato said he was killed in Jessica's room BEFORE Nanjo and Kumasawa were shown being killed in the servants room.

With Nanjo's death the loophole is: the death of some people were not stated in red until after Nanjo died. So one of those people killed Nanjo, died and then the red text was given.

But with the situation you described it doesn't work in the same manner because it was stated Kanon was killed in the room before Kumsawa and Nanjo had their necks slashed.

"Killed" means something like "suffered sufficient injures to cause death".

Just because you were "killed" does not mean you "died immediately". (That has to be specified.)

So yes, Kanon did not die when he was killed.

I'm sure this works a lot better in Japanese...

[Jan-Poo]

This again raises question on the definition of a word

Let's say someone purposely injects the aids virus on his victim. That victim might die several years after such an event. When it would be correct to say that person was killed? At the time the virus was injected or when she actually died?

People die if they are killed
but how much time later?

[ijriims]

When has the word "kill" become so confusing?

If there is no death involved, kill cannot be used. A serious wound does not qualify a killing. The truthness of the red texts depends on the status of Kanon at the time the texts were declared.

If he had died at that time, "kill" can be used. If not, no. Only something like gravely wounded was appropriate in Kanon's case. We do not say someone being sent to intensive-care unit as being killed even though the person may have been stabbed many times in the chest, until the person was declared dead.

In short, being killed implies being dead. Not the vice versa though. (I hope we will not be talking about definition of death afterwards)

(The inheritance theory of Kanon's title works in explaining the latter cases, but never convincing IMHO)

[Marion]

"Killed" means something like "suffered sufficient injures to cause death".

That's not what dictionaries tell me :T

To be killed is to die. Kanon was killed in Jessica's room. I would understand the loophole if it was said after Nanjo and Kumasawa got their throats slashed, but in this scenario it makes no sense because of the timing in Beato's words.

[Xapheron]

Err, it works this way because of the language. And anyway, being killed in the room could mean that the action that lead to his death was committed in the room. There's a reason why it's worded like this instead of just plainly saying 'He died in the room.' Wordplay is very important in discerning the red truths. The inheritance theory, to me sounds rather phony. While it makes sense for Kinzo(new family head) or Beatrice(the one who found the gold); Kanon is not really a title as the servant names aren't really re-used(Renon etc). You could argue that Kanon is a title of one of the one-winged eagle servants but IMO it's really weak. Not to mention you'd have to have someone to inherit the name, quite hard for game 2, when the deaths of most people can be confirmed. Another theory could be Kanon was not the Kanon of other episodes? Not that hard to impersonate, that guy, just have to keep quiet and be emo throughout the day.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Xapheron

Err, it works this way because of the language. And anyway, being killed in the room could mean that the action that lead to his death was committed in the room. There's a reason why it's worded like this instead of just plainly saying 'He died in the room.' Wordplay is very important in discerning the red truths. The inheritance theory, to me sounds rather phony. While it makes sense for Kinzo(new family head) or Beatrice(the one who found the gold); Kanon is not really a title as the servant names aren't really re-used(Renon etc). You could argue that Kanon is a title of one of the one-winged eagle servants but IMO it's really weak. Not to mention you'd have to have someone to inherit the name, quite hard for game 2, when the deaths of most people can be confirmed. Another theory could be Kanon was not the Kanon of other episodes? Not that hard to impersonate, that guy, just have to keep quiet and be emo throughout the day.

The members of the family would not mistake someone else for Kanon.

[Vega Lyra]

Would anyone know about a weapon relating to the numbers "00"? Is there a hunting gun of sorts with those numbers? I'd like to know what those numbers could mean...

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Would anyone know about a weapon relating to the numbers "00"? Is there a hunting gun of sorts with those numbers? I'd like to know what those numbers could mean...

Refers to 00 buck for shotguns. Similarly, "45" and "410" refer to ammunition types. .45 refers to .45 ACP I think, while 410 refers to another type of shotgun shell.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ijriims

*snip*

Originally Posted by Marion

*snip*

Again, this only really works in Japanese. How else do you get redundant statements like "people die when they are killed"?

Kanon at least had to survive long enough to kill Nanjo and Kumasawa... Gohda, unlike the other servants, probably isn't in on their conspiracy... so I think he can be somewhat trusted, though he didn't see what he thought he saw... maybe the LSD theory is correct?

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

The members of the family would not mistake someone else for Kanon.

The problem with red text like this is that it really doesn't mean a damn thing. To destroy its very premise, all I have to do is ask "which Kanon"?

[Vega Lyra]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Refers to 00 buck for shotguns. Similarly, "45" and "410" refer to ammunition types. .45 refers to .45 ACP I think, while 410 refers to another type of shotgun shell.

Thank you.

[Marion]

Okay then, but what's the motivation to kill Kumasawa and Nanjo then? Honestly I can't honestly see Kanon going "hm near death experience? I know - I'll kill two people and then just die anyway!"

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

Okay then, but what's the motivation to kill Kumasawa and Nanjo then? Honestly I can't honestly see Kanon going "hm near death experience? I know - I'll kill two people and then just die anyway!"

Wait, motive in Umineko? What is this?

Well, the only answer I can think of is that the OWE servants and Nanjo are in on the killings... and Kanon went there to kill Nanjo and/or Genji, who 'killed' him for whatever reason.

Kumasawa just got in the way.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Wait, motive in Umineko? What is this?

Well, the only answer I can think of is that the OWE servants and Nanjo are in on the killings... and Kanon went there to kill Nanjo and/or Genji, who 'killed' him for whatever reason.

Kumasawa just got in the way.

'Whydunit' is an important aspect of the mystery.

If Kanon did survive why would he kill two people and not just tell someone he trusts (like Shannon for instance) about Jessica's murder and who did it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

'Whydunit' is an important aspect of the mystery.

Not in Umineko. Not from what I've seen on this board. Not from what Battler says. All that needs be proven is that an event is possible. Motive can be thought of later.

Though if you really want to solve the mystery, then, well...

Originally Posted by Marion

If Kanon did survive why would he kill two people and not just tell someone he trusts (like Shannon for instance) about Jessica's murder and who did it.

Shannon was in the room with them, remember?

Shannon is probably in on it all too...

[Vega Lyra]

Nanjo could have acted as a 'spy' for Rosa, and someone found out and killed him. As someone said, Kumasawa may have gotten in the way.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Not in Umineko. Not from what I've seen on this board. Not from what Battler says. All that needs be proven is that an event is possible. Motive can be thought of later.

Though if you really want to solve the mystery, then, well...

Ryukishi said in an interview before that 'whydunit' is one of the most important aspects to the mystery. Why did the culprit do what they do. Why would Kanon kill Nanjo and Kumasawa randomly.

What I mean is: why would Kanon kill two more people if he could just tell them what happened and catch the culprit. What would murdering two more people do for him?

Again that scene is magical - we don't know for sure if it WAS Kanon killing Nanjo and Kumasawa at all, because he vanished at the end of it all.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

Ryukishi said in an interview before that 'whydunit' is one of the most important aspects to the mystery. Why did the culprit do what they do. Why would Kanon kill Nanjo and Kumasawa randomly.

Fair enough, fair enough, but we don't know enough information to figure out whydunit just yet.

Anyway, like I just said: The One-Winged Eagle servants and Nanjo are the murderers in most of the games, and Nanjo decided to make Kanon one of the sacrifices, for a reason we don't know yet because we know nothing about Nanjo. Kanon came to confront him on his betrayal and killed him, but Kumasawa got in the way.

Originally Posted by Marion

What I mean is: why would Kanon kill two more people if he could just tell them what happened and catch the culprit. What would murdering two more people do for him?

Like I said, because Kanon is one of the culprits. Hell, he could have killed Jessica before Nanjo killed him.

Originally Posted by Marion

Again that scene is magical - we don't know for sure if it WAS Kanon killing Nanjo and Kumasawa at all, because he vanished at the end of it all.

Again, like I said, Gohda's story might as well prove that Kanon was there. And magic scenes are supposed to be metaphors for what happened, remember?