US Elections 2008

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Lilithium

After going through all of http://www.votesmart.org/index.htm for McCain and Obama, I still approve of Obama..isn't just because he's liberal. My family has been voting republican for a long time. My dad is a union laborer, and imagine how unions vote, largely republican for the ones he belongs to. Factor in the pressure he puts into the family to vote Republican, and eh, really, it would be much easier for me to vote McCain.

I think this is something which disturbs me. Maybe, I'm holding the US to a higher standard, now that I've read its history in greater detail. Your vote is secret, and you should not feel "pressured" to vote for anyone.

[solomon]

Well pal, it's not really an AMERICAN thing. It's culture thing. Dependent on the time it'll be seen as a faux pas to not support something.

China is a wierd example, but Many people have said that the government and many citizens said that it would be "unpatriotic" to critizice the Olympic Games, or to critizise the gov't during the Olympic games.

There's US during WWII. According to the PBS Tv documentary, The War. There was a unique dissention among certain Americans to not fight in WWII. Many due to pacifist reasons, a lot of which we're tied to religious beliefs. They thought it would be an affront to God and their faith to engage in killing for what ever reasons.

I NEVER knew this, WWII is always painted as the WHOLE country UNITED, DUTY HONOR, SACRIFICE, COUNTRY, blah, blah, etc.

So you ask, are they treasoners? Cause they didn't wanna participate in the war effort? Does their nationality to a land in this mortal realm, trump that to God and the Almighty Spirit in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Could you say that they did not love their country, for wanting to stay alive and help out in medical or charitable work instead of killing another soldier?

Same thing could go with Vietnam war protesters.

Also there's the conundrum of Blacks in America, we have it much better now then we ever did, but it could be better. Some people due to history, and culture and whatever, are wary to support white elected officials, especially if they are to represent a Black area. Hell, some people think you have to be "Black Enough" to repesent and govern a inner city.

Then there's a small sense of peer pressure. Wearing jeans can be cool, comfortable and stylish right? Of course not everyone has to wear em or needs too either.
But if many people in your family wear them, friends wear them, if you need to feel accepted or are unwilling to ask "Why should I do this?" you'll go along and do it.

Same thing with religion. My dad came from a conservative religous family, but he became a scientific oriented, secular, liberal (politically) democrat. Cause even though his family tried to push him into it, due to various reasons based of environment and himself, he dissented.

Faith, propaganda, hope, stupidity, culture, tradition, identity. All these things entertwine, meld and war within the minds and hearts of humans, natures, cultures and the world as a whole. People feel empowered or intimidated by any one of those things or all of them in varying degrees.

In a macro sense, it'll influence the road humanity takes within the course of history and time.

And in a micro sense, they drastically affect how people will choose someone for the White House.

(sorry if I sound long winded or haughty, I'm trying to work on my delivery)

[Lilithium]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

I think this is something which disturbs me. Maybe, I'm holding the US to a higher standard, now that I've read its history in greater detail. Your vote is secret, and you should not feel "pressured" to vote for anyone.

We all have duties, yezhanquan. It is my father's duty to give me advice. It is my duty to listen. It is also my duty to make my own decision. Which I do on a daily basis.

But hey, thanks for speaking the obvious, fool.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Lilithium

We all have duties, yezhanquan. It is my father's duty to give me advice. It is my duty to listen. It is also my duty to make my own decision. Which I do on a daily basis.

But hey, thanks for speaking the obvious, fool.

I take offense to the fool part. No matter. At least, I'm glad that you're not part of those who will vote blindly because of others.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Lilithium

It is my father's duty to give me advice. It is my duty to listen. It is also my duty to make my own decision.

What is the punishment for passing on the duty? I hope nothing serious. Joking aside, I think the advising part within the family regarding politics is not something needed, for two reasons, you will be either too young or too old, to get advise regarding whom to vote for. And, it is probably not a good sign if a parent wants to give advise on this issue.

[WanderingKnight]

We all have duties, yezhanquan. It is my father's duty to give me advice. It is my duty to listen. It is also my duty to make my own decision. Which I do on a daily basis.

But hey, thanks for speaking the obvious, fool.

Ignoring the obvious verbal slander, what is stopping you from voting differently to your parents? How about trying to think for yourself and take a risk for the things you believe in? You have no duty but to your own ideals--which have to be built by yourself, no matter what your family (or the rest of the damn country) tells you.

Jeebus forbid me from ever having the same political ideas my dad has.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Jeebus forbid me from ever having the same political ideas my dad has.

When you miss the parts in between, if feels like going from one extreme to another.

[WanderingKnight]

I don't think you got me quite right (or perhaps I'm missing something). My dad has his political ideas, which aren't quite far from mine--but his view of the world is a particular one. I have my own particular view which shares some elements... but it's a view I built. Not my dad. A very important difference. I also share a lot of things with my mom, even more than with my dad--but I still have a personal take on many elements which she doesn't share.

In today's world, building a view of one's own is one of the most important things one has to do in order to consider oneself human--or else we'd be falling into the alienation Marx predicted and that can be seen every day on the street, even amongst the supposedly "culturally happy" middle class. Having personal political convictions, even if they're mistaken, is much more important than not having an intellectual identity at all and not even stopping to think about things, letting oneself simply "go with the flow"... because flows can be manipulated quite easily by those with the power to build dams.

So no, my dad is no rightwing fascist and I'm no runaway kid, if that was your question.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

So no, my dad is no rightwing fascist and I'm no runaway kid, if that was your question.

Nope, that was not what I meant. Your earlier post suggested staying away from the dad's political ideas, as if the ideas are a source of leprosy (i.e., regardless of what the ideas are, never ever share them kind of thing). But in your next post, you explained in a bit more detail, and I learned that was not the case. (that is why I implied based on not knowing the conditions)

[solomon]

Is this really an internet forum where people can talk about politics and not rip peoples balls (or snatch) off??!?!


I think I am scared, somethings wrong here.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by solomon

Is this really an internet forum where people can talk about politics and not rip peoples balls (or snatch) off??!?!


I think I am scared, somethings wrong here.

Don't be. The words may be real, but the people are far away from you.

[solomon]

That don't apply on other forums I read.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by solomon

That don't apply on other forums I read.

Well, since I'm not living in the States, I guess 90%-95% of the people here won't be in my neighbourhood.

Seriously, if you get attacked in real life because of a comment you made on the Net, I don't know what to say.

[solomon]

No no, that's not what I meant. When I said "rip someones whatever off" it was an idiom, a figure of speech if you will. Relating to engaging in needless arguing and insulting in a mean spirited, immature fashion.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by solomon

No no, that's not what I meant. When I said "rip someones whatever off" it was an idiom, a figure of speech if you will. Relating to engaging in needless arguing and insulting in a mean spirited, immature fashion.

Oh, this. I try not to be drawn into one. Two posts is the max I'll go, before turning to something more interesting.

[Vexx]

Just as a background... spent most of my life voting Republican until BushCo and DeLay took the party into "neocon-land". The party *needs* a serious time-out.

[solomon]

So Vexx, what did the Pachyderms (elephants) Offer you as a party over the years?

I'm pretty much not a party man, but an issue man.

[Vexx]

Frankly, it was just that prior to Bush --- the Repubs just seemed to have a fair grasp of global realpolitik and had managed to clean themselves up after Nixon. The Dems had major corruption issues of their own and seemed more insistent on their particular strain of "nanny-statism".

Both parties have a serious case of "statism" - they just focus on different things they want to stick their noses into. I also tend to like split government (Dems on one branch, Repubs on another) because it keeps either side's wingnuts from strapping on boosters. As long as the Dems controlled Congress, I preferred a Repub in the Whitehouse (or vice versa).

Unfortunately, the Repubs today are not the Repubs of old. Buckley, George Will, and other old-school conservative political analysts describe their disgust with the present Republican party far better than I can.

Today's Dems are also a lot more conservative than they used to be. I'm not sure younger folks realize just how far to the right the US political spectrum has slid since the 1980s. For that reason, it doesn't bother me this cycle so much if the Dems control both branches for a term because it is going to take them 8 years just to repair the damage to government agencies and just fix our corroding infrastructure.

[bayoab]

Women less pleased with choice of Biden as VP than men.

I get the feeling more and more that people don't understand the electoral process at all. I wonder how many of them even know what the President's or Vice President's job is as defined by the constitution.

And random picture of election humor here.

[solomon]

Ioono, I never thought of our government as really statist. Wouldn't many western european (France is a good example) be more statist then us? I don't think either more or less gov't intervention on issues is inherently bad as doctrine. It depends on the issue at the time. Like how you talk about infrastructure. I mean yea it needs fixing but roads and PT are funded by taxes and it seems like gov't always paints taxes as EVIL

To add to that, i found a great instance of my issue by issue status. People have been hollering about Illegal immigration for a while, but certain free trade agreements and practices (like the subdizising of US farmers) put mexican farmers at a disadvantage thus they come up here to work and the whole thing snowballs. So while I am not against subsidizing industries or institutions sometimes, I see this an instance where it isn't always the best or right thing to do.

Wow are we really THAT much more to the right?

I mean i can see it, when anyone talking about any social democracy practices are tarred in and feathered politically and when Christian Fundamentalist wingnuts get a hold of signifiganct govt influence. (I don't have anything against any religion, but I think fundamentalism can limit progress and inclusiveness).

Vexx, what did you think of Reagan's America? My family is like meh it was ok. But they don't hold Reagan up as a messiah or anything.