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Old 2009-11-14, 16:45   Link #3241
Megaolix
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Originally Posted by Dlanor A. Knox View Post
btw I got 1 thing that troubles me, in almost every game there where 18 people on the island, but Kinzo was dead in the beginning of every game
so that means there should be another unknown person on the island, but he isnt the culprit because thats against Knox rule 1: The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow. that means that whatever Battler does, the murderer is one of the other 16 people...
somehow that sounds screwed up ne? ^^;;
...

Did you forget it was said in red there was no more than 17 people on the island?
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Old 2009-11-14, 17:18   Link #3242
Jan-Poo
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Also the red text is

There are no more than 18 people on the island

Which means it was never stated that there are 18 people.
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Old 2009-11-15, 01:10   Link #3243
ijriims
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Uhm doesn't "Warugiria" actually shows that Kumasawa doesn't really have a vast knowledge?

If she had then she should have signed "Virgilia". The handwriting is also a lot less elegant than Beatrice's, and while Beatrice writes in italian, Kumasawa does it in japanese.
I don't pay attention to what kind of language she was using. But right, she was writing in Italian...

The Japanese text, I think it was still written by Beatrice. Even though Maria could have memorized some hebrew quotations Beatrice taught, I don't expect her to know Italian language that deeply. And that last line "to my beloved apprentice" was written in Japanese to let Maria understand that the whole passage was intended for her, since she did not need to understand the Italian declaration at all.

I suppose Kumasawa was a witness only. She only needed to sign to verify Beatrice's declaration.

Now you mentioned that "Warugilia" ワルギリア was a Japanese adaptation of "Virgilia", it makes sense (I iniitally thought Warugilia was just another way to represent Virgilia). But it still showed that Kumasawa received some education in English (which should not be common for people in her old age). Did Kinzo set up the rule that every servants in the family must at least know some basic English? This is related to the education system in Japan... so maybe Japanese government implemented compulsory education in English after WWII? I don't really know.

I guess Jessica did not know how to write in Italian or know Hebrew at all, did she? (Her english should not be good at all, let alone Italian and Hebrew)

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 01:26.
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Old 2009-11-15, 01:48   Link #3244
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Though, if that were the case...none of the family should have been surprised by that...since it is likely that half or more of the parents would also have that feature...genetically....unless of course...all his children have recessive genes, or the mother's dominate genes took over.


As for the other theory....who signed Maria's book? There are two signatures that aren't Maria's: Beatrice and Virgilia's (spelled incorrectly, but whatever).

Nope, it doesn't work that way! That's why this theory is so convincing!
Generally, polydactyly does not result in a full extra digit. Usually you just get some under-developed stump. And so, if a child has this kind of problem, it is generally removed after birth with surgery, and nothing is thought of it. It is usually not realized that it is actually polydactyly unless a full extra digit is developed (ie: kinzo). It is possible, therefore, that it worked like this:
Kinzo is heterozygous for polydactyly (Dd, let's say). So he has one dominant and one recessive gene. The dominant gene expresses itself and it caused his extra toes.

He has children with a homozygote recessive (dd) and therefore one in every four children will have the dominant gene, and therefore polydactyly.

BUT! This does not mean this child will actually get an extra digit. They may get a stump that is removed before they even know it, and likely they will never be told about it. We were discussing this in class: most parents would not tell their child they had this surgery shortly after birth because they want the kid to grow up thinking they are normal.

So, it is entirely possible for the family not to realize this.

I think the polydactyly is a very important part of the case for Kinzo.
Kinzo is an inheritable title as is Beatrice. The Kinzo who is dead before the start of each game and the Kinzo who appears in each story are not the same person, but are blood related. The reason the parents have no problem with identifying Kinzo's corpse is because the polydactyly was inherited. The original Kinzo who received the gold has a son or grandson, etc, named Kinzo!
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Old 2009-11-15, 02:04   Link #3245
Marion
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Spoiler for EP 5:


Still I don't get exactly where you're going with this. We can't say for sure that someone has an extra toe and it isn't necessarily always inherited. I know a girl whose father has polydactyly but she doesn't have an extra toe, not even a stump.
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Old 2009-11-15, 02:17   Link #3246
Ithekro
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While this should have nothing to do with Kumasawa, I know that the Japanese Navy use to use English on board ship until sometime in the 1920s or very early 1930s. Mainly because the modern Japanese Navy was trained by the British in the late 1800s. This is also the source of the Japanese girls school uniform (the Royal Navy styled sailor suits). Kumasawa, of course, was never in the navy, and I doubt Kinzo was either.

However the clue we have from this is that Kumasawa knows who "Beatrice" is. Second clue we have is that whoever is "Beatrice" has either a very good education, or just happens to have excellent handwritting in Italian and possibly English.

(Interestingly, Beatrice's voice actress (Sayaka Ohara) is suppose to be one of the best at being able to use English. Junior College level English. This is better than a lot of actual native English speakers.)
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Old 2009-11-15, 03:54   Link #3247
ijriims
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I have re-read part of the EP3, the background story became so clear to me.

Kinzo, was chosen to be the head of Ushiromiya family in 1923 after the earthquake. He was forced but his family to marry his wife, who he did not love, but anyway since he had no target around that time. Though he fell in love with Beatrice after he met her around 1944-45.

Beatrice had already been married to Sumadera family due to political reason. Sumadera family wanted to entend their influence by marrying some influential European person's daughter and so Beatrice did not love her husband at all. (pre-WWII, possibly Beatrice was some Italian general or noble's daughter, Sumadera family married her in preparation for the Axis. Explaining why Italian was featured in the theme song and the declaration by Beatrice). Beatrice gave birth to Kyrie (and Kasumi, depending whether Kasumi was actually Kyrie's half sister) for Sumadera family (I speculate that Beatrice entered Sumadera family at around 193x, at the age of twenty something. She gave birth to Kyrie and Kasumi in 194x). She also taught Kyrie about magic when she was a kid, with Kasumi being too little to interact with her mother at that time.

Beatrice was also in love with Kinzo, however due to Beatrice being a wife in Sumadera family, he was not allowed to marry Beatrice as a second wife. After WWII, as Sumadera family had connection with Japanese government for a long time, Beatrice secretly told him about the 10tons gold on Rokkenjima.

After finding the gold on Rokkenjima, he used the gold as collateral and gained an immense fortune during the Korean War, again thanks to the information given by Beatrice. He latter purchased the Rokkenjima and constructed the Kwadorian as Beatrice was willing to abandon her own family and live with Kinzo in 1950.

After construction finished, Beatrice ran away from Sumadera family and bore a child for Kinzo in 1952. The child was the cliff-falling Beatrice we know. The reason of death maybe maternal complication (due to her old age during delivery, over forty years old or mere misfortune).

Kinzo raised the child in Kwadorian and treated her as if she was Beatrice (dressing up cliff-falling Beatrice as her mother did). Genji and Kumasawa were serving her when Kinzo was not around. Even though that Beatrice was not allowed to leave the Kwadorian, she was receiving education from Kinzo and other servants, in accordance to her mother's background and culture. The cliff-falling Beatrice died in 1967 after Rosa unintentionally caused her demise.




This explains a lot: how the 10ton gold was found by Kinzo and how Beatrice was involved, the reason why Kyrie would meet Rudolf (to revenge on Ushiromiya family) and why Rudolf was engaged with Asumu but not Kyrie (with Kinzo's severe opposition against RudolfXKyrie), why Beatrice treasured so much about family when she was talking to Battler, why Kyrie was sympathetic to Maria as she herself was taught in magic during the childhood by her mother and also the fact that Kyrie was having a run-away parent and a non-loving parent (Beatrice ran away and non-loving father for Kyrie while Maria's father ran away and non-loving Rosa for Maria), why mastermind Beatrice knew so much Italian and even Hebrew (she received extensive education and training from Sumadera family, she learnt Italian as her mother was Italian) as well as why Sumadera family was introduced in EP4 and as Kyrie's family. It fit the saying of Beatrice in her letter that she was the inital owner of the 10tons gold for the gold initially should go to Sumadera family if not for Beatrice's betrayal (Kyrie was the family's head).


I would say it all makes sense now.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 11:37.
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Old 2009-11-15, 04:15   Link #3248
Tyabann
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See.

The whole problem with Kyrie being Beatrice/the culprit is that a) Kyrie dies almost immediately in the first two games, if not in Ep3 and 4, and b) After Ep5, it would make Beato and Battler's relationship very, very creepy.

I will say that the theory generally makes sense, though. Virgilia DOES have silver hair, much like Kasumi and Kyrie...
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Old 2009-11-15, 04:28   Link #3249
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
See.

The whole problem with Kyrie being Beatrice/the culprit is that a) Kyrie dies almost immediately in the first two games, if not in Ep3 and 4, and b) After Ep5, it would make Beato and Battler's relationship very, very creepy.

I will say that the theory generally makes sense, though. Virgilia DOES have silver hair, much like Kasumi and Kyrie...
If I am allowed to interpret one red sentence in my own way in EP1, Kyrie did not die in the 1st twilight at all.

For EP2, surely she was killed at the 1st twilight. I suspect that in EP2, Rosa dosed the adults in order to confront Beatrice personally (That suit-Beatrice was Shannon in deguise, because Kyrie told her to do so to make everyone believe that Beatrice existed.) Suit-Beatrice presented the three gold ingots the convinued them she was holders of the 10tons gold. She then left. Rosa thought she was human and tried to contront her in VIP room, but she could not leave the room when all the siblings were hotly discussing, she decided to put them into sleep. She used lots of the child sleeping pills to dose the adults but in fact those pills were for adults, so she accidentally killed all adults in the dining room. Genji appeared to clean up the things for Rosa and told her that "Kinzo" intended to implement the epigraph literally today and he would go on in accordance to his will (as Kinzo and Kyrie now both died). Rosa just wanted to hide up the whole things that she killed her siblings and agreed that making the whole scene as Beatrice's doing was the best.

They moved the bodies to the chapel (initally, adults were not supposed to go to chapel at all. Beatrice gave the key for Maria exclusively in order to kill her after cheering her up with the Halloween party things). She cut open the siblings' abdomens and put sweet into the body for she had to eliminate the evidence that they were killed by sleeping pills overdose. She basically removed everyone's stomach, I suppose.

Rosa accepted that as long as Genji's group did not touch her, Maria and other cousins, Genji could kill anyone he wanted. (Of course, even though Genji did promise he would not kill her and Maria, Rosa's paranoia made her still suspect him that he would betray her).

Jessica discovered that Rosa was the one who killed her parents (because Kanon told her the truth?), Rosa wanted to kill her but was thwarted by Kanon. Still, Genji managed to kill them and make the whole scene as if it was witch's doing. Rosa then removed Kanon's body to frame him as the murderer. In a latter time, George agreed to go out with Shannon, effectively ignoring Rosa's warning, Rosa then conceded that Genji would kill him if he wanted.

But in the end, the time bomb blowed the whole mansion up and killed everyone (or landslide triggered by bomb).


EDIT:For the EP5 thing, I am not certain what you are referring to. But basically meta-Beatrice and meta-Battler's romantic relationship had their own life ever since they were created, or try to think of it as a child caring for his mother...

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 05:21.
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Old 2009-11-15, 04:38   Link #3250
Tyabann
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I noticed you ignored my statement about Ep5, but whatever. I'm not allowed to spoil it here (I think) and you'll see what I'm getting at when the translation is finished.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
If I am allowed to interpret the one red sentence in my own way in EP1, Kyrie did not die in the 1st twilight at all.
The only way that interpretation of the red works is if the corpse in question was actually capable of being identified, i.e. Krauss and Shannon.

Kyrie's body, with her torn-off face, was completely out in the open, but obviously was unable to be identified with certainty.

Beato's Ep4 red confirms the identity of that corpse as Kyrie Ushiromiya.

Unless you have another interpretation...?

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
She used lots of the child sleeping pills to dose the adults but in fact those pills were for adults, so she accidentally killed all adults in the dining room.
Rosa may be incredibly selfish, but she is also very brave and also nowhere near stupid. She wouldn't make a mistake like that, especially if the pills in question were originally intended for her own child.

Also, how does this explain the sweets-for-guts? Genji did it for effect?
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Old 2009-11-15, 04:46   Link #3251
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I noticed you ignored my statement about Ep5, but whatever. I'm not allowed to spoil it here (I think) and you'll see what I'm getting at when the translation is finished.



The only way that interpretation of the red works is if the corpse in question was actually capable of being identified, i.e. Krauss and Shannon.

Kyrie's body, with her torn-off face, was completely out in the open, but obviously was unable to be identified with certainty.

Beato's Ep4 red confirms the identity of that corpse as Kyrie Ushiromiya.

Unless you have another interpretation...?
I basically have said my interpretation over 10 times....(you can refer to my made-up dialogue part 2, click me) anyway, in short, the body Battler saw was not corpse but a mannequin, and my definition of body-double trick is a narrow one: it only applied for people using an alternative corpse to fake one's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Rosa may be incredibly selfish, but she is also very brave and also nowhere near stupid. She wouldn't make a mistake like that, especially if the pills in question were originally intended for her own child.

Also, how does this explain the sweets-for-guts? Genji did it for effect?
I have added the argument in my previous post.
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Old 2009-11-15, 04:51   Link #3252
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
(you can refer to my made-up dialogue part 2, click me)
Sorry, I don't read fanfiction. >_>

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
anyway, in short, the body Battler saw was not corpse but a mannequin, and the definition of body-double trick is a narrow one: it only applied for people using an alternative corpse to fake one's death.
Eh... I don't like this.

Sure, it's certainly possible, but it kind of goes against the spirit of that red, if you ask me. And that's a... highly detailed mannequin for 1986, don't you think?

I think what matters here is what's plausible rather than what's possible. Anything else is the Anti-Fantasy explanation, and that's not what we're supposed to be looking for here.

But still, I'll give it you that it's possible.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I have added the argument in my previous post.
Okay, I definitely can't see Rosa gutting the corpses of her own siblings, and certainly not stuffing sweets into them in exchange. She may be a terrible person but she's not that terrible of a person, nor does she have that kind of sick sense of humor, either...
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Old 2009-11-15, 05:01   Link #3253
ijriims
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Spoiler for To save up space:


It is not only a fan-fiction (really, every hypothesis we propose is fictional, just that I used dialogues to spell out my hypothesis in this case), but also envisioned scenarios based on my hypothesis. I tried to present my hypothesis in a more livid way, so please don't disregard it completely!!



Highly-detailed mannequin..... those B-movie make-up skills existed for a very long time I guess. Maybe Kyrie has learnt from one or two Hollywoodmen when she was in US... And really what required some improbable details was not a crushed face, but to make your own face. Read the "fan-fiction " for additional reasons I think why it should work.

Okay, Rosa gave the idea and Genji did all the job. Probably Genji's work exceeded her expectation and made her want to vomit after seeing the finished scene. The halloween setting was already there prepared by Beatrice for Maria. They just moved the bodies there so no one could detect (if they left the bodies in the dining room, Gohda may bump into anytime) and they needed the sweets to confuse the forensic tests. I suppose Rosa took away the key from Maria at after 00:00 Oct 5, so it was "morning" and did not contravene the red texts.

I knew Rosa was not stupid, but she might have messed up the proper amount of sleeping pills needed to dose the adults (using too much in this case, even though the pills were truly for kids, she used up too much. She was not a pharmacist after all) or she had just purchased some mal-produced products.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 11:39.
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Old 2009-11-15, 07:52   Link #3254
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Even if you ignore Beatrice's red text, mannequins are pretty unlikely. It would require definite planning to get a good mannequin to the island in advance (nobody had the luggage for it), well before anybody knew of the typhoon.

Also, it's unlikely to be a person regularly delaying a dead-man switch. If my hypothesis is correct:
- The bomb goes off at 12:01 on Oct 6 in Episode 4 (Beato's 1 minute rule and her final challenge), 24 hours after the deaths are ostensibly over.
- It probably goes off sometime on Oct 6 in Episode 2. (Rosa Musou)
- It may go off Oct 6 in Episode 1.
- It does not go off on Oct 6 in Episode 3.

Genji is certainly out as the delayer; he lived to the end in Episode 2, when the landslide is very likely to have happened, and he was alone for much of that time. And if Kinzo didn't trust Genji as the delayer, who would he trust?

=====

Alternative to my trap epitaph hypothesis:
Premises:
- The gold was found in Kuwadorian or on the tunnel to Kuwadorian (episodes 3 and 4).
- The epitaph described how to find said tunnel.

Kinzo would have concluded that somebody found the tunnel and murdered Beatrice, and the epitaph was written in a way that said person would have an enormous advantage over the others. In the trap epitaph hypothesis, I suggested that Kinzo hated the person who killed Beatrice, and wrote the epitaph to identify / kill said person. Perhaps instead, while he hated the person, he admired that person's decisiveness (remember the test in episode 4) in identifying an obstacle and removing it, which he found sorely lacking in his family, and did want to reward that person.
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Old 2009-11-15, 08:21   Link #3255
ijriims
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If one did want to bring a mannequin to the island, it was not difficult at all. The size added together was smaller than 0.5 m^3 (you can disjoin it and rebuild it you want). It is light as well.

Besides, just call Genji to take it to the island if you still thought that bringing it on 4th Oct was difficult.

Was typhoon relevant to it at all? if that day was a sunny day, just put the mannequin deep inside the garden shed then.

You can always think of a way to get around the problem, I suppose. If Beatrice knew about the tunnel and alternative port, then the problem was solved even easier. The problem of bringing a mannequin to Rokkenjima was not a difficult one at all.

The mannequin hypothesis is not perfect, there is always a chance someone would have blown it. But the chance was small given Nanjo as accomplice, that day was a stormy day and the face was made too horrible to look at for normal people.

If you want to say the six people were all dead, then it was necessary to provide an alternative explanation why the faces of the bodies were like that.

The real problem is the red texts, I have to say.

----------------------------------

I thought the disaster occured in both episodes, except in EP5.

----------------------------------

Kinzo had little reason to believe that anyone murdered cliff-falling Beatrice (if you were talking about her), perhaps except his initial wife. After Rosa lured her outside, Kinzo just could not find her. Unless you provided a reason there were a lot of people out there who wanted to murder her, there was little reason to believe Kinzo would conclude Beatrice's missing was a murder.

In fact, if the epigraph was designed to lure his imagined "murderer", then Eva and Rosa should have been killed in EP3 after they solved the epigraph.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 11:40.
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Old 2009-11-15, 08:42   Link #3256
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Highly-detailed mannequin..... those B-movie make-up skills existed for a very long time I guess. Maybe Kyrie has learnt from one or two Hollywoodmen when she was in US... And really what required some improbable details was not a crushed face, but to make your own face. Read the "fan-fiction " for additional reasons I think why it should work.
Except you're ignoring what Kaisos's point is. As Beatrice ultimately wants Battler to solve the riddle, I generally don't think that any of the red truths she says are going to have twisted definitions, particularly something so extreme as quibbling over the exact definition of what does and does not constitute a body double - to which I would argue that a mannequin is a pretty good definition of a body double. It's possible, but it's not consistent with what we know of her character so I'm not buying it. And this murder is by far my largest problem with Kyrie as the culprit, as there's no way the culprit would be killed off from the get go.

Quote:
The halloween setting was already there prepared by Beatrice for Maria.
.....Wait a sec, are you still saying claiming that Kyrie's motivation for the murders is Maria? I thought everyone made it pretty clear that this idea made no sense whatsoever.

Also, how does your theory explain Episode 4 at all, particularly well Kyrie's death? Especially when one considers that Episode 4 is largely the product of a rushed murderer, not very well planned out at all, which is once again contrary with Kyrie's personality? Why would Jessica be so confident that witches existed?
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Old 2009-11-15, 08:57   Link #3257
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I don't pay attention to what kind of language she was using. But right, she was writing in Italian...

The Japanese text, I think it was still written by Beatrice. Even though Maria could have memorized some hebrew quotations Beatrice taught, I don't expect her to know Italian language that deeply. And that last line "to my beloved apprentice" was written in Japanese to let Maria understand that the whole passage was intended for her, since she did not need to understand the Italian declaration at all.

I suppose Kumasawa was a witness only. She only needed to sign to verify Beatrice's declaration.

Now you mentioned that "Warugilia" ワルギリア was a Japanese adaptation of "Virgilia", it makes sense (I iniitally thought Warugilia was just another way to represent Virgilia). But it still showed that Kumasawa received some education in English (which should not be common for people in her old age). Did Kinzo set up the rule that every servants in the family must at least know some basic English? This is related to the education system in Japan... so maybe Japanese government implemented compulsory education in English after WWII? I don't really know.

I guess Jessica did not know how to write in Italian or know Hebrew at all, did she? (Her english should not be good at all, let alone Italian and Hebrew)
I don't know if it is just an error in the way you phrased this post however to clarify:
Beatrice wrote the italian
Virgilia wrote the japanese


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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Kinzo, was chosen to be the head of Ushiromiya family in 1923 after the earthquake. By that time, he has already met Beatrice but he was forced but his family to marry his wife, who he did not love. He had been loving Beatrice for a long time.
STOP!
Ep2 during the time Shannon and Genji go meet Kinzo and he tell them to write his last will. Kinzo says that he met Beatrice after the war (and no it wasn't the first war because he says it is a "Showa" year). So your assumption is not true. While it is true that he didn't love the woman he was forced to marry, that doesn't mean he was already in love with someone else.

I know that the scene I mentioned is odd since Kinzo wasn't supposed to be alive then, but even so it is very unlikely that that scene is total rubbish. It probably reflects a real event that happened before Kinzo died.

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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
why mastermind Beatrice knew so much Italian and even Hebrew (she received extensive education and training from Sumadera family, she learnt Italian as her mother was Italian) as well as why Sumadera family was introduced in EP4 and as Kyrie's family. It fit the saying of Beatrice in her letter that she was the inital owner of the 10tons gold for the gold initially should go to Sumadera family if not for Beatrice's betrayal (Kyrie was the family's head).
It would make sense even without claiming that there is any connection with the Sumadera. The rest you said does make sense but you cannot say it back your Kyrie mastermind theory since they are completely unrelated.

There is also one thing you are forgetting. It is stated in Ep1 when Battler browses the books in Kinzo's study that Kinzo is knowledgeable in a vast array of different languages. In other words there is not a necessity to find a background to explain Beatrice's knowledge of Italian and Hebrew. It is possible that Beatrice had been taught by Kinzo or that, as Kinzo did, she learned languages by herself.


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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
She might have messed up the proper amount of sleeping pills needed to dose the adults (using too much in this case, even though the pills were truly for kids, she used up too much as she was no expert in pharmacy) or she had just purchased some mal-produced products.
This is an unnecessary explanation.
The person that did that mess had absolutely no reason to cover the fact he used sleeping pills. The people on the island had absolutely no way to check it.

As for the police and crime investigation. Well... disregarding the "disaster" fact. What would the culprit accomplish? It's not like ripping the stomaches open would fool them into believing it was an accident...

Also there is a the possibility that the crime investigation would reveal traces of that substance in the blood.

But let us say that now they don't find any evidence that sleeping pills were used. So what? They can still think that sleeping pills were used. So even for the purpose of trying to make them think "it was done by a witch" it was meaningless since it would just become a devil's proof.

Or from another side, let us say that the culprit didn't remove evidence of the sleeping pills. The police then would find them and what would change in the culprit plans? The police would never say that it was all done by a witch, and regardless of what they say, the magazines talk shows and fanatics would still claim that the police is covering up the truth.
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Old 2009-11-15, 09:06   Link #3258
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Except you're ignoring what Kaisos's point is. As Beatrice ultimately wants Battler to solve the riddle, I generally don't think that any of the red truths she says are going to have twisted definitions, particularly something so extreme as quibbling over the exact definition of what does and does not constitute a body double - to which I would argue that a mannequin is a pretty good definition of a body double.

.....Wait a sec, are you still saying claiming that Kyrie's motivation for the murders is Maria? I thought everyone made it pretty clear that this idea made no sense whatsoever.

Also, how does your theory explain Episode 4 at all, particularly well Kyrie's death? Especially when one considers that Episode 4 is largely the product of a rushed murderer, not very well planned out at all, which is once again contrary with Kyrie's personality? Why would Jessica be so confident that witches existed?
I guess Beatrice wanted Battler to solve the mystery because she wanted someone to stop her.

I thought you skipped many of my previous posts. I no longer said Kyrie killed people for Maria. What she did for Maria was merely a merciful kill.

Her major motive was to get the gold for Sumadera family AND to test the whole Ushiromiya family to see if they could forgo their mistrust and unit to solve the epigraph.

In EP4, she gave up hope on the adults but intended to test the children. She knew that the children could not solve the epigraph so she tested the children whether they were willing to sacrifice their love for the family's sake (Because Kyrie sacrificed her love for Sumadera family). George failed instantly, Jessica gave a more satisfactroy answer so she was asked to persuade Battler to believe in magic. As Battler had no lover, Kyrie's test to Battler was whether he could reflect on his damage on Ushiromiya family after his departure and forsaking the family name. If any of them passed, then Kyrie was willing to part half of the gold and bestowed the title of Ushiromiya family. But since no one passed, all people had to die and Sumadera family took all the gold in this case.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-15 at 11:26.
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Old 2009-11-15, 09:12   Link #3259
Kaiba
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
Quote:
I guess Beatrice wanted Battler to solve the mystery because she wanted someone to stop her.
Exactly. So if Beatrice wants Battler to solve the mystery, why would she wield such a twisted definition of body doubles that would definitely set one upon the wrong track? I generally argue that any red truths used by Beatrice and Lambda can be taken at face value (Lambda frankly because of her title and because we have never seen her lie. At all.) while those proposed by Bern and Erika have to be accepted with a grain of salt, particularly Erika.

Quote:
Jessica gave a more satisfactroy answer so she was asked to persuade Battler to believe in magic
And Jessica does this..... why?

Quote:
Her major motive was to get the gold for Sumadera family AND to test the whole Ushiromiya family to see if they could forgo their mistrust and unit to solve the epigraph.
The second one is.... possible, I guess, but the first one makes no sense as Episode 4 makes it pretty clear that Kyrie and the Sumadera family are not on good terms, to put it mildly.
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Old 2009-11-15, 09:15   Link #3260
ijriims
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't know if it is just an error in the way you phrased this post however to clarify:
Beatrice wrote the italian
Virgilia wrote the japanese

Or from another side, let us say that the culprit didn't remove evidence of the sleeping pills. The police then would find them and what would change in the culprit plans? The police would never say that it was all done by a witch, and regardless of what they say, the magazines talk shows and fanatics would still claim that the police is covering up the truth.
I don't really think that Kumasawa wrote down the Japanese text.

Okay, change a bit then. Beatrice met Kinzo during the end of WWII. But she was married into Sumadera family before WWII.

I was providing a reason why Beatrice would want to know Italian and Hebrew, since normal Japanese people would not go to learn them at all, unless for some special reasons (like Kinzo was trying to revive Beatrice)

No, ripping the stomach was not to make the whole scene as accident only. But it was trying to make it as witch's doing, for all those survivors. Battler and other people would not suspect Rosa in this case if they believed it was Beatrice's doing. Obviously the police would still confirm the scene as murder, but murders done by the fanatic, by the "suit-Beatrice". This act was Rosa's intention to put the responsibility on the suit-Beatrice.
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