AnimeSuki Forums

DonQuigleone · 2012-02-08, 15:59

[QUOTE=Tiresias;3994376]
And platemail can actually resist bullets from early arquebus. It only fell out of favor when the evolution of muskets outstrips the evolution of body armor.

True, cuirasses only became useless in the 19th century. Up until that point they could stop a bullet.

And today, we've again produced body armor that can reduce gun shot, so i guess things have come back to what they were before...

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2012-02-08, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

And today, we've again produced body armor that can reduce gun shot, so i guess things have come back to what they were before...

Not at all, no modern bodyarmour can reliably stop an AK-47. And certainly nothing you can wear will stop more modern military rifles. We are going to need powersuits if you want infantry armour thick enough to absorb actual gunfire.

Yes, modern vests can stop pistol rounds, but that's not what you are up against if you are in a warzone.

Roger Rambo · 2012-02-11, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Not at all, no modern bodyarmour can reliably stop an AK-47.

Wait, really? I'm pretty sure the plate inserts in modern ballistics vests can stop 7.62X39mm. That's what they test the vests for.

Or are you talking about standing up to repeated gun fire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And certainly nothing you can wear will stop more modern military rifles.

I'm not sure that's all that true, considering that modern military rifles tend to be smaller caliber and weaker than more historical world war 2 rifles (cause those heavy rounds have to much recoil to be fired on automatic).

NeoChan · 2012-02-11, 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

What gave you that idea? Call of Duty?

A modern machine gun with a tripod can have an effective range of up to two kilometers.

True, but if fighting enemies covering in trenches or buildings in a city, range would be less effective unless your enemy are stupid enough to be expose in the field knowing a machine with that range is sniping around.

About armor vest? Well, I guess it's truly is effective if your head are not expose... ^_^V

Roger Rambo · 2012-02-11, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoChan

True, but if fighting enemies covering in trenches or buildings in a city, range would be less effective unless your enemy are stupid enough to be expose in the field knowing a machine with that range is sniping around.

Which also means just the mere presence of your weapon limits what the enemy can do, and you haven't even fired a shot.

SoldierOfDarkness · 2012-02-11, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

Wait, really? I'm pretty sure the plate inserts in modern ballistics vests can stop 7.62X39mm. That's what they test the vests for.

Or are you talking about standing up to repeated gun fire?
I'm not sure that's all that true, considering that modern military rifles tend to be smaller caliber and weaker than more historical world war 2 rifles (cause those heavy rounds have to much recoil to be fired on automatic).

Probably anything but a stray shot.

On that matter the issue with body armor is that it can limit movement and for a marine fighting in urban warfare that can be a liability.

You have to balance between armor and mobility.

Unless of course you develop energy shields.

Ithekro · 2012-02-11, 22:33

Machines guns tend to be less accurate at full auto due to the recoil and need to control it. This is partly why they made three round burst. The other reason being to prevent tunnel visioned soldiers from running out of ammon while holding down the trigger (happened a lot in Vietnam with the early M-16s).

But in single shot....accurate as any other rifle. And with training the bursts can be just about as accurate...or at least accurate enough. (as a novice teen I had access to a machine pistol (HK something or other) at a target range in Arizona. Single shot with 9mm works fine. Three round burst, I think I hit a few. At full auto (I had I think seven rounds left) I hit the paper twice (neither in the black, so if it was human I would have missed...though he would have felt the rounds go by).

NoemiChan · 2012-02-11, 22:33

If I'm not mistaking the best armored suit I ever seen in a anime is inJinroh the Wolf Brigade... not only the squad has have body armor but their heads and faces are covered in armor... plus each carrying a machine gun...Damn!

Roger Rambo · 2012-02-12, 01:04

It suddenlly occurs to me we might wanna move this conversation =P Since we're not talking about Boshin war weaponry anymore

But long story short. There's no reason for a Gatling gun to be shorter ranged than bows or other rifles (bar marksmen)...except for balancing reasons.

Ithekro · 2012-02-12, 01:53

Well Gatlings of 1865 are suppose to have the effective range of a rifled musket...so maybe 500 yards. But that is farther than long bow range (200 yards).

Most militaries trained for 200 yards for rifled muskets...and the Confederates, who tended to have makeshift types of weapons trained for 100 yards. Union and Confederates could become effective with the most modern rifles of the age out to 400 yards in massed fire by war's end. Snipers of course could make longer ranged shots, but some had more specialized rifles and sights.

NoemiChan · 2012-02-12, 01:55

Since we're talking Shogun 2: Total War with the addition of gatling guns as a weapon, I may better speak on how to out match such weapon in an actual battle.

I will removed my thoughts in using any long range units because whether I have the advantage of longer range or not, obviously it'll never compensate on the fire power of the gatling gun.

My selection of troops would more of soldiers that has higher chance of accepting such a beating from the weapon or at least has the adequate moral to remain until the very end of the game and not run like idiots asking to be slaughter even by one peasant.

Another best choice is cavalry, the more the better. It'll serve as "morale breaker" plus it's added bonus points when attacking at full gallop.

Talking about the gatling gun, I might assume it's a fix weapon or at least takes time to be set up and reloading takes time. And also, I deeply hope it's not weapon that can cover a complete circle that would be menacing not only in my part but of the it's allies surrounding it.

Defeating an army with gatling guns requires planning and quick manuevering. I may use my footed soldiers as decoys and damage takers while my cavalry is my stricking arm. Outflanking and attacking on at least two directions (except the front of course) would prove effective in defeating and out smarting a lethal weapon.

Ithekro · 2012-02-12, 02:00

If they are using historical gatlings, they operate like a cannon with a crew of four. They even look like a cannon save that it is six small barrels firing half inch or so bullets rather than a single barrel firing a 12 pound ball or grape shot at you.

Roger Rambo · 2012-02-12, 15:45

They actually have a video/article that's going over the gun VS bows thing.

I'm really looking forward to this. (oh god! that naval combat!)

SoldierOfDarkness · 2012-02-12, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Since we're talking Shogun 2: Total War with the addition of gatling guns as a weapon, I may better speak on how to out match such weapon in an actual battle.

I will removed my thoughts in using any long range units because whether I have the advantage of longer range or not, obviously it'll never compensate on the fire power of the gatling gun.

My selection of troops would more of soldiers that has higher chance of accepting such a beating from the weapon or at least has the adequate moral to remain until the very end of the game and not run like idiots asking to be slaughter even by one peasant.

Another best choice is cavalry, the more the better. It'll serve as "morale breaker" plus it's added bonus points when attacking at full gallop.

Talking about the gatling gun, I might assume it's a fix weapon or at least takes time to be set up and reloading takes time. And also, I deeply hope it's not weapon that can cover a complete circle that would be menacing not only in my part but of the it's allies surrounding it.

Defeating an army with gatling guns requires planning and quick manuevering. I may use my footed soldiers as decoys and damage takers while my cavalry is my stricking arm. Outflanking and attacking on at least two directions (except the front of course) would prove effective in defeating and out smarting a lethal weapon.

You guys do know that you'll have access to cannons and howitzers right?

Those will take out the slow moving gatling guns no problem.

NoemiChan · 2012-02-13, 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You guys do know that you'll have access to cannons and howitzers right?

Those will take out the slow moving gatling guns no problem.

Tell that to the civilization who invented the gatling guns coz they might have better howitzers being kept...

Ithekro · 2012-02-13, 02:44

One generally invents cannons long before gatling guns. But the ranges on those tech didn't really increase all that much until after this time period (with the developement of smokeless powder and viable breachloading guns).

MrTerrorist · 2012-02-13, 08:36

So will the use of spies and assassins still be available for the expansion?

I would like to see a ninja/geisha kill a poor foreign military instructor.

SoldierOfDarkness · 2012-02-13, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Tell that to the civilization who invented the gatling guns coz they might have better howitzers being kept...

The gatling gun fell out of use in 1911 because of it was cumbersome to move on the battlefield to keep up with infantry and its high elevation made the crew vulnerable to snipers and artillery.

It wasn't revived until after WWII with the Vulcan gun.

Quote:

One generally invents cannons long before gatling guns. But the ranges on those tech didn't really increase all that much until after this time period (with the developement of smokeless powder and viable breachloading guns).

It doesn't matter. The Armstrong long guns in that period had a very devastating range and the Japanese had access to those guns. I would find it appalling if the Gatling gun in Shogun 2 has the same range as those artillery guns.

On that matter

http://www.computerandvideogames.com...murai-trailer/

Also there's no bayonets in the game apparently. CA didn't had enough time to motion capture fighting with and against bayonets in order to make the timeline so we're stuck with line infantry that switch to swords in melee.

Roger Rambo · 2012-02-13, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The gatling gun fell out of use in 1911 because of it was cumbersome to move on the battlefield to keep up with infantry and its high elevation made the crew vulnerable to snipers and artillery.

It wasn't revived until after WWII with the Vulcan gun.

I think what you're trying to say is that they had better options by then

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Also there's no bayonets in the game apparently. CA didn't had enough time to motion capture fighting with and against bayonets in order to make the timeline so we're stuck with line infantry that switch to swords in melee.

oh BOLLOCKS!

...I'm seriously thinking about not getting this now.

Hooves · 2012-02-13, 18:15

Seriously? No bayonets when that was the highlight of melee with guns? Such a shame.

2012-02-11, 22:33	Link #87
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Machines guns tend to be less accurate at full auto due to the recoil and need to control it. This is partly why they made three round burst. The other reason being to prevent tunnel visioned soldiers from running out of ammon while holding down the trigger (happened a lot in Vietnam with the early M-16s). But in single shot....accurate as any other rifle. And with training the bursts can be just about as accurate...or at least accurate enough. (as a novice teen I had access to a machine pistol (HK something or other) at a target range in Arizona. Single shot with 9mm works fine. Three round burst, I think I hit a few. At full auto (I had I think seven rounds left) I hit the paper twice (neither in the black, so if it was human I would have missed...though he would have felt the rounds go by). __________________

2012-02-12, 01:04	Link #89
Roger Rambo Sensei, aishite imasu Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome	It suddenlly occurs to me we might wanna move this conversation =P Since we're not talking about Boshin war weaponry anymore But long story short. There's no reason for a Gatling gun to be shorter ranged than bows or other rifles (bar marksmen)...except for balancing reasons. __________________ DEEP WITHIN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHERE GENESTEALERS ARE MADE OF F***ING RUBBER!

2012-02-12, 01:53	Link #90
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Well Gatlings of 1865 are suppose to have the effective range of a rifled musket...so maybe 500 yards. But that is farther than long bow range (200 yards). Most militaries trained for 200 yards for rifled muskets...and the Confederates, who tended to have makeshift types of weapons trained for 100 yards. Union and Confederates could become effective with the most modern rifles of the age out to 400 yards in massed fire by war's end. Snipers of course could make longer ranged shots, but some had more specialized rifles and sights. __________________

2012-02-12, 02:00	Link #92
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	If they are using historical gatlings, they operate like a cannon with a crew of four. They even look like a cannon save that it is six small barrels firing half inch or so bullets rather than a single barrel firing a 12 pound ball or grape shot at you. __________________

2012-02-12, 15:45	Link #93
Roger Rambo Sensei, aishite imasu Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome	They actually have a video/article that's going over the gun VS bows thing. I'm really looking forward to this. (oh god! that naval combat!) __________________ DEEP WITHIN A PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHERE GENESTEALERS ARE MADE OF F***ING RUBBER!

2012-02-08, 15:59	Link #81
DonQuigleone Knight Errant Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dublin, Ireland Age: 35	[QUOTE=Tiresias;3994376] And platemail can actually resist bullets from early arquebus. It only fell out of favor when the evolution of muskets outstrips the evolution of body armor. True, cuirasses only became useless in the 19th century. Up until that point they could stop a bullet. And today, we've again produced body armor that can reduce gun shot, so i guess things have come back to what they were before...

2012-02-11, 22:33	Link #88
NoemiChan Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Philippines Age: 36	If I'm not mistaking the best armored suit I ever seen in a anime is inJinroh the Wolf Brigade... not only the squad has have body armor but their heads and faces are covered in armor... plus each carrying a machine gun...Damn!

2012-02-12, 01:55	Link #91
NoemiChan Banned Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Philippines Age: 36	Since we're talking Shogun 2: Total War with the addition of gatling guns as a weapon, I may better speak on how to out match such weapon in an actual battle. I will removed my thoughts in using any long range units because whether I have the advantage of longer range or not, obviously it'll never compensate on the fire power of the gatling gun. My selection of troops would more of soldiers that has higher chance of accepting such a beating from the weapon or at least has the adequate moral to remain until the very end of the game and not run like idiots asking to be slaughter even by one peasant. Another best choice is cavalry, the more the better. It'll serve as "morale breaker" plus it's added bonus points when attacking at full gallop. Talking about the gatling gun, I might assume it's a fix weapon or at least takes time to be set up and reloading takes time. And also, I deeply hope it's not weapon that can cover a complete circle that would be menacing not only in my part but of the it's allies surrounding it. Defeating an army with gatling guns requires planning and quick manuevering. I may use my footed soldiers as decoys and damage takers while my cavalry is my stricking arm. Outflanking and attacking on at least two directions (except the front of course) would prove effective in defeating and out smarting a lethal weapon.

2012-02-13, 02:44	Link #96
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	One generally invents cannons long before gatling guns. But the ranges on those tech didn't really increase all that much until after this time period (with the developement of smokeless powder and viable breachloading guns). __________________

2012-02-13, 08:36	Link #97
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	So will the use of spies and assassins still be available for the expansion? I would like to see a ninja/geisha kill a poor foreign military instructor. __________________