2010-07-02, 12:03 | Link #401 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
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She did say to Kyon when he asked her why she didn't tell him before hand, that if she had the errors would have just erased his memory of it and changed the situation anyway. Also she said there was no gaurantee that she hadn't done that already. Just like she said there was no proof she was telling the truth to Kyon about everything in Sigh.
So it is possible that she did tell Kyon at some point, but he won't remember it. Also while Yuki believes in free will, she also knows when something is unavoidable...at least until post-Dispapearance...due to her synchronization with herself. Though via Endless Eight she also knows that different events can happen even on a small scale if the same viables are presented repeatedly.
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2010-07-02, 16:10 | Link #402 |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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Agreed on the Disappearance being unavoidable. If she could have changed it, she would have, as you suggested, even though she knew how and when it would happen (the "how" being nebulous, as she knew it was because of the "errors", but still didn't know enough about those "errors" to keep them from occurring).
Let me see if I can put it into what is likely more familiar terms... Let's say you're a respected and prodigiously intelligent scientist in an extremely advanced society, yet for all your brains and scientific abilties, you're able to do no more than predict the upcoming destruction of your planet by [sources vary], and do nothing about it directly, because you left your fix for [sources vary] in your other pants, with your time machine. That's Yuki prior to Disappearance, with the impending error build-up. Now, let's say that despite your inability to combat the problem directly, you can make sure that your society lives on, by sending your infant son to a planet far far away where the yellow sun will yadda-yadda-yadda... That's letting Kyon keep his memories. Now let's say that—purely hypothetically, mind you—somewhere down the road, that infant son grows up on that other planet to be a widely loved helper of society who flies around in tights and a cape, wearing his underwear on the outside, and through his travels, comes across the ticket you left him to pick up your other pants from the cleaners. That's the Emergency Escape Program. Get it now? ^_^
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2010-08-30, 09:32 | Link #406 | |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Yuki's not trying to change or prevent the future. She never does that. In fact, like the time travelers, she feels forced to act a certain way because she knows that's how she'll act. She knows she'll go through 15000-something iterations of summer, so when it gets to that point, she just accepts it. We think it's bad to go back in time and screw up the past, because it might change the present and the future. We generally have no similar reservations about changing the future, because hey, it's the future. Who know what'll happen? But in the Haruhiverse, where we KNOW future time travelers exist, everyone is in the "past" for those people. Yuki can't allow herself to change their present, because it could have serious repercussions on her present. It's weird, because there's that concept of predestination that defines character growth. Nothing Yuki does is anything but living out how she "knows" things will happen. She's only developing because it's predetermined that she'll develop, and she only lets E8 continue because she knows she'll let E8 continue. Even if she has feelings about it and about her future, they don't come into play. Concerning Yuki being Rei 2.0 (a discussion from the first page): Yuki is undoubtedly based on Rei (look no further than the name), but she's not really "Version 2.0." As someone else said, she's just a different take on the "emotionless girl" trope. Rei is the way she is because she's kept secluded, with limited human contact. She acts like a robot because she's treated like one, and she changes (quite quickly, actually) once she's thrust into real society. I have an image on my computer with all sorts of instances of Rei showing emotion (ironically titled "Rei Ayanami is an Emotionless Doll"). She's completely human and she reacts to many things just as an other human would. Yuki, on the other hand, is not human. She's a computer, and honestly, the fact that she develops feelings at all (regardless of what Kyon thinks of the matter in Disappearance) is completely ridiculous. Compare Asakuru. She's immersed in the world just as much as Yuki is, and she has no trouble dealing with people. But in truth, her emotions are just what one might expect from a computer: pure facades, and nothing more. She uses emotions as a tool, nothing more. A computer picking up emotions because it's surrounded by humans is as ridiculous as a computer generating fiction because there are a bunch of e-books on its hard drive. Rei makes sense as a character. Yuki does not. But there's a very crucial reason why Yuki does not, and it's because she's a better character that way. She's better for the stories, and she's better for the audience. I like her the most of all the characters because of it. Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-08-30 at 14:46. |
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2010-08-30, 13:23 | Link #408 | |
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Just wanted to point that out, but I do agree that Yuki was forced like the time travelers to act in ceirtan ways which is why Yuki is envious of Mikuru since she doesn't exactly know what will happen. You probably already knew that though, in which case, I'm just stating it so I could understand it myself . |
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2010-08-30, 15:41 | Link #409 | |
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2010-08-30, 17:43 | Link #410 | |
Anime Cynic
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Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-08-30 at 17:57. |
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2010-08-31, 02:39 | Link #411 | |
Yuki Nagato Worshipper
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2010-08-31, 05:01 | Link #412 |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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I see no problem with thinking it odd that she'd develop emotions ("ridiculous", maybe not so much), because as advanced (and clearly sentient) as the IDSE and its interfaces are, they are on a fundamental level so alien to humans that it is unexpected that they would develop human emotions, as Yuki appears to have done (jury's still out on the other two). On a certain level it makes more sense that a dog or cat would develop human emotions, because at least dogs and cats, like humans, are biological. Yuki, even though she may be in an organic interface body isn't, entirely...
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2010-08-31, 05:09 | Link #413 | |
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2010-08-31, 12:21 | Link #414 |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
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I need to amend my previous statement. It's not at all unreasonable for Yuki to pick up emotions. It's simple adaptation, and for all we know, Asakuru went through a similar (albeit much accelerated) process. If Yuki develops emotion as a way of appearing more normal, that's pretty understandable.
However, what's not understandable is Yuki developing MOTIVATION. It's one thing to win a computer game because that's what will make Haruhi happy and less likely to break things (which is part of your job description). It's a completely different thing to win a computer game because you personally want to be victorious. When we see other people act, we can empathize because we too are human. We are intrinsically emotional, so we can grow and learn by seeing what other people do. In engineering terms, other people are white boxes to us. However, a humanoid interface like Yuki wouldn't have this insight. She'd have to approach things from a black box perspective; she'd see people acting a certain way, but she wouldn't know why. The best she could do was mimic the emotions she observed. She would develop a database of proper emotional responses for particular situations, and that would be the extent of the adaptation. That's it. How can you acquire intrinsic motivation, something you can't observe or relate to? And even if that was possible, I don't get why the ISDE made Yuki the way they did. This thing is (likely) the most powerful consciousness in the galaxy. Didn't they do any quality assurance before shipping her out? How could they let a flaw like personal motivation through? |
2010-08-31, 12:46 | Link #415 |
Yuki Nagato Worshipper
Join Date: Apr 2009
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As far as I know, both Asakura and Yuki were designed that way. Kyon said something to that effect I believe.
I would disagree on other people being white boxes to us. If you have ever been in a relationship this you would know very well You never know what your significant other (or someone you are interested in) is thinking Again, I would not conclude that Yuki, or the humanoid interfaces are incapable of emotion. I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that we don't know enough to conclude either way. |
2010-08-31, 14:16 | Link #416 |
Anime Cynic
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Age: 35
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Undoubtedly. However, I was speaking on a more abstract level. The point is that the stuff that drives us is definitely not something that an observer could just "pick up" (especially since, as you say, we're such a mystery even to ourselves). As an example, no matter how long I observe birds, I will never feel the same compulsion they do to migrate. We call it "instinct" because we don't know what it really is. To Yuki, our reasons for taking action would never be more than "instinct." It's something she can't relate to, and it's something that can't just grow on her.
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2010-09-01, 22:39 | Link #417 | |
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2010-09-02, 06:46 | Link #419 | ||
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And to contribute to the topic, I find it interesting how we never hear about any other ITDE interface's experience through Endless Eight. Was it just Yuki that became so depressed? It wouldn't surprise me given how much Tanigawa-sensei likes her character.
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2010-09-03, 05:16 | Link #420 | ||
Sav'aaq!
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And it's hardly surprising that the IDSE would overlook that possibility. We don't know what they are like, but we know that they had to create the human interfaces just to get an indirect observation/communication path going. As alien as their consciousness must be to ours, their ideas of "emotion" should be just as alien. And they'd certainly expect their more advanced consciousness to be able to overcome any "errors" (like human "motivation" or emotion) that might creep in along with the biological body.
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