2012-05-16, 03:53 | Link #1 |
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This thread is aimed at first time viewers of Hyouka and its purpose is to allow spoiler free speculation and theories to be aired. Having them in a central location may help focus the discussion instead of spreading speculation over the various episode discussion threads. If you are knowledgeable of the manga and wish to speculate or discuss theories, then please do not post in this thread (use the Hyouka - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Hyouka readers only) thread) and do not give away any spoilers in this thread!
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Spoiler Policy
Magazine previews are an exception to the said rule. You are allowed to discuss those. (Properly labeled spoiler tags required). Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-05-16 at 08:53. |
2012-06-18, 20:15 | Link #2 |
Anime Snark
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 41
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Well... I guess I will begin by putting forth the elephant in the room question for Episode 8 & 9.
Why don't they ask the scriptwriter who the murderer is? She's not in a coma, and Irisu is in contact with her, so... Cheers.
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2012-06-18, 20:49 | Link #3 | |
User of the "Fast Draw"
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It is a good question though and probably ties into this whole situation.
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2012-06-18, 21:49 | Link #4 |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Since Relentlessflame already pointed to this thread being lonely and unwanted I think its time we actually use it.
e//: Looks like it took me too long to write this up lol - so ignore the first sentence. EP 8 to 10 Mystery: Spoiler for Mystery - Theory:
Feel free to comment
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-19 at 13:46. |
2012-06-19, 01:03 | Link #6 | |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Age: 32
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I did post a theory of my own on the other thread, if anyone wants to dissect it you're welcome to.
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2012-06-19, 03:00 | Link #7 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Window: As I've stated in my own theory the window is irrelevantto this case. While your theory sounds plausible at first you have to take note of the fact that they told us in episode 9 that the grass was meant to be left undisturbed,so no one entered through the ground - which does, if you want to leave the window in only leave your version without her touching the ground. This is however no good either, as there are at least two problems with your theory. 1st) The window was pretty hard to open, this was shown by one of the taller boys trying to do it and still having a hard time, itss very likely that no one has opened it in a very long time (btw also stated by oreki). Also don't forget the grass, so the only way would be climbing directly through the window without touching the grass, otherwise it would get cracked. 2nd) You forgot about the rope. No matter how you look at it - there is no way she could have hid that rope again before the discovery. So the Guy having opeened the window would have seen the rope - it would have even hit his face. If a simple pull could have loosened it enough to get it down no one would have been able to climb down using it. Blood and Arm: I'm not even sure the severed arm was intended by the author, I suspect that the rest of the team found its cool and added that, as the author requested just a small amount of blood while a huge amount had to be made in the end, so its most likely that the murder weapon wasn't supposed to be taken out of the victims body. Nevertheless we have to accept the facts and those are that the arm got severed, which brings us back to my two prime suspects as they are the only ones that would have heard him screaming. Still I think you are not completely off as your theory and my own have some important things in common, like the room never been closed in the first place - andd that one would need the rope to pull it off. Our theories start to differ at the point where we talk where she entered the room. The only way I do know is that my theory has opened up another entry to into the room without disturbing the grass or opening the door.
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2012-06-19, 07:55 | Link #8 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I like the following idea a lot:
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This is specifically a movie script and not a novel, so "tricks" like the cameraman being the culprit are possible, particularly when you consider how involved the cameraman was - more like a 7th person than an omnipotent or fly-on-the-wall viewpoint. Some things will be red herrings (in terms of solving the mystery) and some wont be. For example, the rope might be part of the second half and not part of how the murder was done. As others have mentioned, I think the "sealed room murder" is quite possibly a red herring too - or rather, it's more to confuse the characters within the movie and the viewers. One of Holmes's famous expressions is "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". If none of the suspects could have safely done the murder then it must be someone else. All you have to do is realise that the cameraman is a valid "someone else". There's also the meta-mystery about why Hongou hasn't completed the script and why they haven't asked her. I think she is partially getting a bit of revenge upon her classmates - the ones who forced who to take on the most difficult job and tied her hands in all sorts of ways in terms of the plot/setting. I'm not saying she faking the illness but more like after falling ill she realised she had a chance to get a bit of revenge. I'm guessing that "The blind spot of 10,000 people" is what the final title of the movie will be - I guess it's a bit of a poetic expression. I think "the cameraman is the murderer" is a very nice and simple yet daring solution that fits this potential title very well and also allows Houtarou to look very cool by coming up with it.
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2012-06-19, 12:35 | Link #9 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Another problem is Knox 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Where have they shown a clue that the camera man might be the culprit? There is not even a clue that he is a person at all - no one even talks or looks at him/her. If anything the camera man would be the detective btw.
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2012-06-19, 13:58 | Link #10 | |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
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Trapdoor: If that's not a stage trapdoor beside the open safe near Kaitou's body, I'm actually curious to see what you think it might be (since I'm having trouble seeing it as something else now). Also, let's say it was a trapdoor. I didn't say it would conveniently lead back upstairs to her room, just that it would connect to the room she came in from. Window/Ground: So I'll go over my theory again. Kounosu slipped a rope from a window on the far side of the building, where a protruded portion of the building blocked her from view (Episode 8, before they enter). She didn't enter directly from Kaitou's window. She leaves the rope hanging there and slips into an open window directly below her (when they check the first two empty rooms, the windows are open). She then closes the door to that room, sneaks behind Kaitou and silently kills him. Since he's physically huge, she probably took him out with one fierce and deadly blow, but I can't say for sure the method yet. It's at this point that I question a portion of my theory. If she could trade keys with Kaitou, lock the door and then make it a few rooms over to where she entered from, then she wouldn't need a trapdoor (the room was still hidden in the singular hallway). My guess is that she either just walked back whilst leaving Kaitou's room locked, or she heard/saw something that didn't agree with her. She would then have to lock it from the inside and then use the trapdoor to secretly get back to the original room without being spotted. Getting rid of the rope would be as simple as pulling it back up once she got back to her floor. The ground would be untouched the entire time nonetheless.
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2012-06-19, 14:11 | Link #11 | |
User of the "Fast Draw"
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But it would be a tough thing to take since there hasn't been a distinction made. Until the camera person is identified have to treat it like the camera doesn't exist for the characters. There isn't much to say whether a camera person went along with them. The group going there for research, but don't necessarily need a camera for that. Wanting a seventh person could mean a character for being the camera person, not needed early but near the end for the reveal. But other possible reasons so not the strongest evidence.
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2012-06-19, 14:50 | Link #12 | |||||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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So even if she would come back from there alone, she could have simply claimed that she went into the two waiting rooms while he went to the crime scene alone. No one would have questioned the credability of her words since the room was locked from inside, without her having a key. (She would allso not be able to swap her key for his in this variant, as she wouldn't have had one; Moreover even if she took one she could have given it to the victim in order to have no key in the end.) So as you can see the trapdoor eliminates the rope; further explaination regarding how it eliminates the rope exactly below. Quote:
Even then, then problem with the rope not being there anymore still remains. She had to made sure that the rope was belayed enough to hold her - so simply removing it won't work. Another thing regarding this is btw said 'trapdoor' - there is, as you've stated no way it can be connected to a room above her. The school I went to had an emergency shaft in it's computer room, which was on the ceiling leading to the first floor. A 'trapdoor' like it was seen in the anime would lead DOWN though, which brings us to the next part. Quote:
This is however a contradiction to the rope and the room she choose. please not that it was her laying the keys out, placing said key close to Kaitou, and choosing hers only after she was sure he would really take said key. She was also the one having proposed the theather so she knew how it would look like inside from the very beginning. Which brings us to the part of the contradiction: You don't need the rope if you use the trapdoor as you'd already have a secret connection between the two rooms on the far end. So she could have just taken the key someone else took and walked right through the trap door. Quote:
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- being ingored entirely the whole time definitely falls under this description. Please note that we are talking about a movie, not a novel here, so 'his view' is to be used as an analogy to 'his thoughts'.
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Last edited by AC-Phoenix; 2012-06-19 at 15:03. Reason: Adding something |
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2012-06-19, 17:15 | Link #13 | |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Age: 32
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The rope wouldn't be brought about. She needs to rappel down from the second story, leave the rope tied, and return to it later to climb back up to the second story. And I am aware of how trapdoors work. The trapdoor would only be used if Kounosu needed to get from Kaitou's room to the room where the rope was waiting for her without being spotted. Also, Knox's first rule doesn't specifically mean there can't be mystification. If there's no mystery involved with a criminal, then where the need for deduction? It basically states that we must be able to feel what the criminal feels. We have to feel like their act of murder was justified, so as to be able to accept how everything played out.
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2012-06-19, 17:24 | Link #14 |
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I don't think that the cameraman can be considered a serious possibility. Besides violating the rules of mysteries, he also faces the same problem of his movements being seen by the other characters, and pulling off a sealed room situation. It's not a resolution at all.
Regarding keys: If keys are important and not a red herring, then it's possible that the killer had the key to the room. There were six loose keys and a ring of four master keys after all, maybe one of the loose ones was a master key. However, considering how they were distributed, having both the killer and Kaitou grab the correct keys would be too dependent on luck.
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2012-06-19, 17:37 | Link #15 | ||
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Don't misunderstand, I can't rule your theory out atm, I can only say that it would defeat the purpose of the rope and her choosing the room aboove his in the first place. Quote:
We should think a bit outside of the box though, namely if there is a way to lock the door from outside. using the rope. Edit: I do in the meantime know for sure that, thee thing neext to the save is not a trap door, justsomeguy pointed out that there is a hole in the wall right above that door - so it just fell off from there.
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2012-06-19, 17:53 | Link #16 | ||
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If the killer had a key, I'm inclined to think s/he used it to lock the door on the way out, rather than get in, since it's unlikely Kaitou would lock himself inside a room (the "he locked himself in for protection" idea lacks support). . Quote:
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2012-06-19, 19:07 | Link #17 | |
ゴリゴリ!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia
Age: 32
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First I'd like to challenge your theory that the time between the crime and discovery was really THAT short. Sure, in the film it's almost immediate, but consider it in actual passing time. It's a cutaway, meaning that it could have been a minute to even several hours if they needed to. I'd also like to challenge how one would determine which room Kounosu was in. Remember that she got an entire half of the upstairs to herself while two others took the other half. The only other risks to her would be the two downstairs, but note that they were in the opposite half of the building too. Technically, she was alone enough.
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2012-06-19, 19:33 | Link #18 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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As for Kounosu, both KyoAni's and the novel's floorplan shows that the only room on the right side of the second floor was the lighting room.
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2012-06-19, 19:44 | Link #20 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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The problem I have now though is said chute I used as modus operandi, as I have really not the slightest idea what its original purpose was - its therefore hard to say that one could fit through it for sure. regarding that extra master key: The number of keys on the keyring seems to match the number of doors.
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