Ukrainian Conflict

[kyp275]

...that doesn't even make sense.

Bottom line is that you equated ethnicity to willingness to join a country (not exactly something new with you).

How many Ukrainian became refugee in Russia? One, Yanukovych.

You may want to stay away from the reality Merkel says Putin is in.

[Fireminer]

Fine. What I want to say is: Russia will get Crimea, one way or another. Any further action would make her become a tyrant in everybody's eyes.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Was able to get some information from a pastor who has done some missionary work in the Ukraine for several years and this is what he says (So I may be wrong for the record but it does give another insight into this and this is my opinion.)

Ukraine is simply corrupt, like seriously corrupt that it's not even funny. The country in itself is controlled by a group of powerful families that have driven the people into poverty while making themselves rich. The root of the cause is greed.

So the people are simply pissed off, I mean who wouldn't? As the saying goes, "The grass is greener on the other side" so the EU probably looked like a reasonable way out of poverty for the people.

Despite the fact that Russia was offering Ukraine the better deal than the EU, more money with no strings attached, the people simply didn't trust the government anymore and revolted. Even if they took the Russian deal it still wouldn't deal with the root of the problem anyways.

Of course since this is in Russia's backyard it's logical that they would take steps to protect their interests (doesn't matter how you argue it, every country will do whatever it takes to protect their interests even if it means through military arms).

The harsh reality is that Ukraine is simply another chessboard for a good ol' East Vs. West match which has been going on for lord knows how long. At the end of the day it was the greed of the high lords of Ukraine that bought this upon the country and both the West and East are now jumping in trying to take whatever pieces they can. The Ukrainians don't matter in this case, neither side cares about them. What they care about is the balance of power that's shifting here.

As for Obama talking about "Don't go too far...." using those words all the time just becomes blank noise.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Last time I checked 60% of Crimea is ethnic Russian, that hardly equals 60% want to join Russia, I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a vote

Leaving aside how many times the concept of nation-states has utterly failed... this train of "thought" implies that it would make sense to exchange populations between Russian and Ruthenian populations in Ukraine... this will leave Russians with less territory to control than they do now, since Ruthenians are a majority in the state. But reason was never particularly a strong attribute of fascists.

Historically speaking, such baseless ideas lead to the most destructive wars in the beginning of the previous century... and it's about time for the west to realize that the cold war was not an ideological one, but a result of imperialist and fascist ideologies despite their communist and capitalist covers.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Was able to get some information from a pastor who has done some missionary work in the Ukraine for several years and this is what he says (So I may be wrong for the record but it does give another insight into this and this is my opinion.)

Ukraine is simply corrupt, like seriously corrupt that it's not even funny. The country in itself is controlled by a group of powerful families that have driven the people into poverty while making themselves rich. The root of the cause is greed.

So the people are simply pissed off, I mean who wouldn't? As the saying goes, "The grass is greener on the other side" so the EU probably looked like a reasonable way out of poverty for the people.

Despite the fact that Russia was offering Ukraine the better deal than the EU, more money with no strings attached, the people simply didn't trust the government anymore and revolted. Even if they took the Russian deal it still wouldn't deal with the root of the problem anyways.

Of course since this is in Russia's backyard it's logical that they would take steps to protect their interests (doesn't matter how you argue it, every country will do whatever it takes to protect their interests even if it means through military arms).

I think that is a pretty balanced view of events. Corruption and cronyism sparked discontent among the population, and now events have been co-opted for an international power-play, leaving the former even worse of.

[Roger Rambo]

I'm slightly inclined to agree with Fireminer, though not for exactly the same reasons. Given that the rule of law had been rather dramatically challenged in the Ukriane (knocking over the president), I'm not sure it can be said with a straight face that the people in the Crimea didn't have a similar option to utilize popular sovereignty to decide their future. If the region HAD genuinely wanted to go over to Russia, I'm not entirely sure you could say they shouldn't.


...the problem is that the Russian's didn't allow any discourse like that to develop by themselves. Or even establish that this was the case. They just moved in with commandos and simply took over everything, and initiated a standoff with the Ukranian army. Even if you agree that the Crimean people should be allowed to not be part of the Ukraine anymore, this is ridiculous. Those soldiers have a duty to stay at their posts until lawfully ordered otherwise. And Russia trying to remove them is so out of reach of their official stated goal of protecting the Crimea from right wing vigilantes it's not even funny.


I have two sneaking suspicions about this situation. That the Russian's militarily intervened because they didn't trust the Crimea to be sufficiently pro-russian on it's own...or they're actively itching for a fight with the Western half of the country. Russia just went for the heavy handed military intervention far too soon for me to believe that a peaceful transition was their primary concern.

[ganbaru]

US prepares $1B aid package for troubled Ukraine
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/kerry...ders-sanctions

As China looks on, Putin poses risky dilemma for the West
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A221NZ20140303

[konart]

Putin refused to consider the annexation of Crimea
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/04/crimea1/

The article is in russian, sorry, but the title says it all... I guess.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The root of the cause is greed.

So pretty much the usual reasons.

As for Obama talking about "Don't go too far...." using those words all the time just becomes blank noise.

It's what he has to do though, because he has to play multiple roles: the politician at home, the one abroad, etc. So it's either toss out some warnings or say nothing and invite further problems. Can't win either way, but unfortunately there's not much he can say or do at the moment without more people immediately jumping on him for being "weak" than there already is.

There's a lot of arm chair leaders and opportunists who love to butt into dangerous situations like this, who don't care about the consequences of what they say or do, sadly.

As for this particular crisis, it scares me that progress from the WW2/Cold War eras are eroding so quickly. The world truly is run by idiots and children.

[Libros]

Putin says Russia will use force in Ukraine as last resort as warning shots fired at Crimean air base

Putin: Russia has no plans to annex Ukraine's Crimea region

Putin calls an end to military exercises in Russia… but shows no sign of removing troops from Crimea in face of economic sanctions

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Solace

As for this particular crisis, it scares me that progress from the WW2/Cold War eras are eroding so quickly. The world truly is run by idiots and children.

What? I kind of missed out the part where anyone learnt anything or progressed from WWII....

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by konart

Putin refused to consider the annexation of Crimea
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/04/crimea1/

The article is in russian, sorry, but the title says it all... I guess.

He also previously denied that the Russian troops in Ukraine were in fact, Russian. There is no point believing a word Putin says, what matter is what he actually does.

What's the term for what Putin became in the old-school sense? Oh, yeah. Oathbreaker. That tend to hurt reputations. He just recently told a bareface lie, it would be a few years before we forget about it.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

What? I kind of missed out the part where anyone learnt anything or progressed from WWII....

Many countries have been improving their governments, economies, and standards of living. Overall the world is far more peaceful and stable than it has been in centuries, even if it's still tenuous and filled with problems. I never said we made huge strides in everything, or that progress has been even. You still have people who cling to American Imperialism, for example.

We're a far cry away from the conditions of the early to mid-1900's, globally speaking. But we are slipping back in some ways.

I get what you're saying, but I was speaking generally. In many specific cases, yes, we haven't learned from our mistakes.

[Libros]

From Imgur. Now I know it may not be the most reliable source but I figure, at the very least, the image should provoke some discussion.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

By: Greg Krasnov, Founding chair YPO Kiev & CEO, Platinum bank

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Libros

From Imgur. Now I know it may not be the most reliable source but I figure, at the very least, the image should provoke some discussion.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

By: Greg Krasnov, Founding chair YPO Kiev & CEO, Platinum bank

Just to confirm who he is: http://en.platinumbank.com.ua/view.manag/

Some bits may sound a little alarmist, but the part about provocations describe typical black ops (especially black propaganda and infiltration - the usual stuff) and that is the most worrying part at the moment.

[Roger Rambo]

So has anyone actually watched that video of the russians firing warning shots at the Ukrainians?

YouTube

https://youtu.be/DzsZ_aDSGBY

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Those guys...have balls approaching Russian special forces unarmed like that.



For the time being, it doesn't seem like the Ukranian army is going to go and provoke the Russian's in the same way the Georgians did (though in that case it was outright attack). Which shows a rather incredible amount of restraint/discipline on their part.


edit: BBC video gives a bit more context.

[Nightbat®]

Originally Posted by Libros

By: Greg Krasnov, Founding chair YPO Kiev & CEO, Platinum bank

Why is it never:"Yuri Anton, Shoe salesman at Poltova Shoes and Footwear"

And since when does a banker have info on nuclear capabilities?

[ganbaru]

Putin: military force would be 'last resort' in Ukraine
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A1Q1E820140305

Russia test-fires ICBM amid tension over Ukraine
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A231ZC20140304

Turkey scrambles jets after Russian plane flies near its Black Sea coast
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A2314I20140304

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Nightbat®

Why is it never:"Yuri Anton, Shoe salesman at Poltova Shoes and Footwear"

And since when does a banker have info on nuclear capabilities?

More importantly how is anyone supposed to make a nuke in the 72 hours max before the Ukraine is overrun?

[risingstar3110]

Honestly, i think we all missed the point...

There will be some conflict between Russia and Ukraine, maybe some armed conflict. But there will be no war, nor Western or American interventions.


The solution for this has only been one (unless some wild development happens), the re-elections consists of both pro-Western and pro-Russia political parties. What the Russian doing now moving its force to Crimea, is to protect the bargaining chips for the next pro-Russia government, rid off opposite forces in these regions, and prevent the pro-Western Ukrainian governments doing the same to pro-Russian side. The Western government meanswhile just trying to mitigating the effects of that


By nature, this is completely different from Iraq, Afghanistan or Lybia where the coexistence of both governmental party is impossible. This is not a game of chess that ends with one side triump. This is a game of poker, where both sides to gain as much bargain chips as possible before the round ends