[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 2 Turn of the golden witch

[AceHigh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Your windows regional setups is not in japanese.
You have to run it in japanese (or using applocale) to properly install umineko.

As you can see, there is TONS of gibberish and question marks instead of proper japanese kanji/hiragana/katana, hence demonstrating that it isn't set appropriately in japanese.

i'm having trouble with both methods, changing the locale doesn't work and when i use applocale only the first window has proper japanese, the rest of the windows have the random characters

[maximilianjenus]

The killer does not always do the best moves, that's been implied since the start. I would say more but that spoils chapter 3.

[MeoTwister5]

Well well well. It would seem me and Battler did come to more or less the same conclusion, with a minor difference with the issue of the key. I'm altering my theory to fit with Battler's theory.

Also I feel the need to completely disregard the second murders...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Jessica Murders

The problematic here is that we are shown an event leading to Jessica and

possibly Kanon's deaths. If we are to assume this event is real (since it

was shown) and perhaps that it was the real Kanon there, then it would have

to be someone else and we must exclude Kanon. Also since the epitaph

states a pair, regardless of being a person or not, we can believe that

Kanon is also dead, which poses the problem of his body not being in the

room. It could easily be that his body was later disposed of in order to

pin suspicion on him. To me, since we do have someone posing as Beatrice

(if that isn't real) who has a key (and only a servant should have one),

Kumasawa is the remaining probable culprit. Beatrice confirmed that Kanon

died in the room with red text.

Add the fact that Kanon did not have the key, which makes the real Kanon

the perpetrator unlikely.

On the other hand, was that the real Kanon? It is improbably to me to have

a 19th person to pose as him, and none of the other people have the same

body type as Kanon to impersonate him. As such, an imposter Kanon is highly

unlikely.

However the truth of this event is questionable. It is possible that this

event was a trick by Beatrice in the Metaworld to cloud Battler's thoughts.

Consider the fact that there was no interjection by either one of them,

specifically Battler did not call into question Beatrice seemingly directly

using some magical power to kill both of them. If Beatrice would directly

use magic then Battler would have had to concede. On further inspection,

Beatrice wants to break Battler by showing him no other option but to

accept magic to explain these events, but everytime murders occurred it

fell short of directly showing Battler a magic-caused event. Showing a

direct injection of magic contradicts seemingly contradicts Beatrice's

patterns in her attempts to break Battler's will.

With that, if we disregard this event as truth, then we are left with a

murder scene that we did not really witness. Throwing out the details of

the fight scene, it is simply probable that Kanon or Kumasawa or even both

killed Jessica. She did die face down with a stake stabbed on her back,

which leads credence that she knew the killer enough to leave her back

unguarded. Also, since Kanon and Kumasawa are servants, they could have

keys to access and lock her room.

However, since Beatrice pretty much excluded Kanon as the killer, you are left

with Kumasawa, which still cannot be confirmed.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Spoilers:

To me, since we do have someone posing as Beatrice (if that isn't real) who has a key (and only a servant should have one), Kumasawa is the remaining probable culprit.

Spoiler for Second Twilight:

There's a loophole in the red text that'd let a murderer without one of the servant's master keys lock the door. Beatrice claims that "When locked, entry is not possible by any means." There's no mention that exit is not possible. There are types of locks that can't be opened from the outside without a key, but can be opened from the inside without a key. I wouldn't be surprised if all the bedrooms on Rokkenjima had them - they're safer than normal locks in the event of a fire during the night, since you don't have to waste time fumbling with keys while still half-asleep. A hypothetical murderer could have locked the door with Jessica's key, placed it where it was found, and just walked out the door and pulled it closed to lock it. Locking the door wouldn't make sense for the servants if they were thinking about it properly, since it'd just make them look suspicious. Anyone else would find it to make an excellent alibi though.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Throwing out the details of the fight scene, it is simply probable that Kanon or Kumasawa or even both killed Jessica. She did die face down with a stake stabbed on her back, which leads credence that she knew the killer enough to leave her back unguarded. Also, since Kanon and Kumasawa are servants, they could have keys to access and lock her room.

Spoiler for Second Twilight:

Throwing out all the details, all we know is that Jessica, Kanon and Gohda left the chapel, Gohda returned to the rest alone, and Jessica was later found dead, with Kanon missing but confirmed dead by Beatrice. Kumasawa and Gohda have no alibi, and it's plausible Kanon could have killed Jessica and been killed by someone else in turn, but Rosa also doesn't have an alibi during the time she was collecting the gun - it just seems like she has an alibi because we see Kanon and Jessica attacked while we're still thinking of her as being in the chapel. If we're dismissing the details though, it seems silly to hold to the time that we're told it happened beyond "the murders happened between the time they left the chapel and the time they were found". As for Jessica being stabbed in the back, it wouldn't surprise me if that particular detail from what we saw was correct - that Jessica died protecting Kanon.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Valentine

Spoiler for Second Twilight:

There's a loophole in the red text that'd let a murderer without one of the servant's master keys lock the door. Beatrice claims that "When locked, entry is not possible by any means." There's no mention that exit is not possible. There are types of locks that can't be opened from the outside without a key, but can be opened from the inside without a key. I wouldn't be surprised if all the bedrooms on Rokkenjima had them - they're safer than normal locks in the event of a fire during the night, since you don't have to waste time fumbling with keys while still half-asleep. A hypothetical murderer could have locked the door with Jessica's key, placed it where it was found, and just walked out the door and pulled it closed to lock it. Locking the door wouldn't make sense for the servants if they were thinking about it properly, since it'd just make them look suspicious. Anyone else would find it to make an excellent alibi though.

Spoiler for Second Twilight:

Throwing out all the details, all we know is that Jessica, Kanon and Gohda left the chapel, Gohda returned to the rest alone, and Jessica was later found dead, with Kanon missing but confirmed dead by Beatrice. Kumasawa and Gohda have no alibi, and it's plausible Kanon could have killed Jessica and been killed by someone else in turn, but Rosa also doesn't have an alibi during the time she was collecting the gun - it just seems like she has an alibi because we see Kanon and Jessica attacked while we're still thinking of her as being in the chapel. If we're dismissing the details though, it seems silly to hold to the time that we're told it happened beyond "the murders happened between the time they left the chapel and the time they were found". As for Jessica being stabbed in the back, it wouldn't surprise me if that particular detail from what we saw was correct - that Jessica died protecting Kanon.

Spoiler for Spoilers:

However when one of the red texts said that you cannot lock the door from the outside without a key, to me it translates that the door isn't one of those that you can set to the lock position when you're going to go out the door, and stays locked when you pull the door closed behind you and thus locking it when you leave without a key. To me it suggests that you can only lock the door from the outside if you use a key. I was heavily considering that the killer could lock to door behind him as he leaves but the red text says otherwise. Plus a door you could lock as you leave would have caught Battler's eye, but Beatrice did state that the door needs a key to lock from the outside, so the issue was never brought up.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Spoilers:

However when one of the red texts said that you cannot lock the door from the outside without a key, to me it translates that the door isn't one of those that you can set to the lock position when you're going to go out the door, and stays locked when you pull the door closed behind you and thus locking it when you leave without a key. To me it suggests that you can only lock the door from the outside if you use a key. I was heavily considering that the killer could lock to door behind him as he leaves but the red text says otherwise. Plus a door you could lock as you leave would have caught Battler's eye, but Beatrice did state that the door needs a key to lock from the outside, so the issue was never brought up.

Spoiler for Second Twilight:

The bit you're thinking of is "No device could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key." This method of locking the door from the outside uses the key though - it just uses the key from the inside first, then goes about the locking from the outside part just by closing it from the outside. There's no conflict with the red text. For that matter, "pulling the door closed" isn't a device, so that line could either refer to using the key from the inside, which satisfies the "can't be done without a key" part by using a key, or refers to the pulling the door closed part, which satisfies the "can't be done with a device from the outside" part by not using a device. Either way there's no conflict.

I'm not following why you think it would have caught Battler's eye either. Unless he locked the door with the key first, there wouldn't be anything about the door to notice.

[MeoTwister5]

Spoiler for Spoilers:

If that line of reasoning is followed, it seems far to convenient that such an idea hasn't even appeared to any of the participants, much more Battler. So far no one has suggested the existence of this kind of door lock despite having so many people dead already. One would expect that considering they've been tackling the issue of door locking than even the method of killing, one assumes such a common and simple mechanism would have caught the mind of somebody. It's as if the idea of such a lock isn't even considered at all, which is ridiculous. A good lot of doors can be locked this way yet they don't even consider it. This suggests that none of the doors would lock this way because they wouldn't even need bring it up and question it.

Furthermore if such a locking mechanism was their norm then practically every locked room mystery their could be said be be such, and yet again they find no way to lock the doors without keys and any other way to unlock the mechanism. It is illogical and highly unlikely that such a mechanism wouldn't be considered, considering how many ideas Beatrice had already shot down with red text.

The only probable reason they wouldn;t even consider this mechanism is if the doors do not lock this way, which is what I think.

Also after further rumination, I have NO IDEA how to explain the Servant Room and Natsuhi's Room.

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Spoilers:

If that line of reasoning is followed, it seems far to convenient that such an idea hasn't even appeared to any of the participants, much more Battler. So far no one has suggested the existence of this kind of door lock despite having so many people dead already. One would expect that considering they've been tackling the issue of door locking than even the method of killing, one assumes such a common and simple mechanism would have caught the mind of somebody.
...
The only probable reason they wouldn;t even consider this mechanism is if the doors do not lock this way, which is what I think.

Spoiler for Second Twilight:

"If they didn't think of it, it can't be the case"? What kind of logic is that? If they'd come up with the answer to how it was done in the story it wouldn't be a mystery and we wouldn't be trying to come up with an answer ourselves. I didn't come up with this answer until my third time through the story, and I was specifically thinking "how could Rosa have created this locked room", having just realised that she doesn't actually have an alibi for this murder, and the phrasing of Beatrice's red text struck me as odd. Battler didn't pick up on the fact that the red text didn't disallow exit through the locked door, so he had no reason to pursue this line of reasoning. He's not only not suspecting Rosa, but he's trying to clear Kumasawa and Gohda without blaming anyone else. Needless to say, he's only heard it once as well, and didn't get the option of reviewing in detail everything Beatrice said. I missed it twice and only noticed it the third time because I was picking her words apart. I find it very difficult to blame Battler for missing it in light of that.

In addition, I think there's a very obvious problem for Battler here - "A good fortress has one, and only one, intentionally weak point". The closed room can be broken easily by blaming either of the servants. Battler doesn't need to go looking for a way around it to deny the witch. By presenting an obvious weak point that he was unwilling to attack, Beatrice prevented him from examining the closed room closely enough to determine that there was a hidden weak point there as well.

None of the episode one locked rooms involve a similar lock - padlocked shutter, Kinzo's autolock room, chain on Eva and Hideyoshi's room, the parlour could presumably be opened or locked by anyone with a master key, which could well have been taken from one of the murdered servants. The chapel only has one key, which was locked outside of it. There's no reason to ask if any of the rooms before this were locked this way, since it's either clearly impossible to lock them this way (shutter, chain), or there's an obvious other way of locking them (parlour, auto-lock), or there's no reason to lock them this way anyway (chapel, since the key is outside the locked door). For this particular room, and the people present, Rosa has Gohda and Kumasawa fairly terrified by saying they could have done it. See how quickly they accept Kanon as the culprit to get her to stop pointing the gun at them? Every time someone even suggests it's not Kanon she either goes back to threatening them or asks the person arguing the point which one of them did it. Not an easy environment to be considering the possibility of the door being locked with the key inside the room.

[MeoTwister5]

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Okay I guess I can concede to your reasoning to some effect, but I remain baffled that considering their first hand experience of the events (we as limited outside observers aren't privy to a lot of the things they could be seeing), I still find it odd that they never truly attempted to reason through such a door lock mechanism when such a door lock mechanism could explain so many of the door lock problems they're facing.

As for everything esle... well it's because we disagree on the probable perpetrator for this case/episode.

I also have a few questions regarding the episode 2 tips...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

How valid exactly is the explanation for the supposed magic powers of the servants and the family? I mean all things considered, by accepting this wouldn't it validate the pure magical viewpoint since they themselves possess magic? It seems as if again that if even the Tips suggest magic then it would lead the beliefe that magic really is the cause....

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I also have a few questions regarding the episode 2 tips...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

How valid exactly is the explanation for the supposed magic powers of the servants and the family? I mean all things considered, by accepting this wouldn't it validate the pure magical viewpoint since they themselves possess magic? It seems as if again that if even the Tips suggest magic then it would lead the beliefe that magic really is the cause....

Spoiler for answer:

I suggest that you read EP3 before worrying about this too much.

[tcaz2]

The tips don't necessarily tell you the truth.

[Jan-Poo]

Really? Just to have a comparison can this be applied in the case of Higurashi? Were those TIPS helping or deceiving?

[Proto]

I'd say all the TIPS are true in Umineko depending on your pov

[Jan-Poo]

I noticed in episode 2 Beatrice after eating the sweet that Shannon brought to her she mentions a "Dolce Vita" from "Nero" and a "Rose Dolce".

Now I'm totally clueless about that "Dolce Vita", the first thing that comes to mind is Fellini's most renown movie, but that certainly isn't a sweet nor a cake.

I'm also clueless about "Nero". Is it a city a village? Not that I know of. If that's supposed to be a brand maybe it's a spoof of "Ferrero"?

"Rose Dolce" is a lot easier. "Dolce" literally means "sweet" and it can be used for any kind of sweet food (except fruit) so cake, pastries and even candies.
This is most certainly a "Torta di Rose" (literally: rose cake)

BTW is this a proof that Beatrice isn't just a fancy name and she is supposed to be italian?

[IcecoldAssassin]

Have not finished episode 2 yet but (I think?) im about 3/4ths there.

I havent decided weather I love Beatrice or just hate her.

Spoiler for spoilers:

When the scene where shannon was trying to hold off her attacks and she knows she cant hold off for much longer, she talks to George and says if he would say "i love you" one more time. then right before he finishes saying love Beatrice just slaughtered them

I have to say she is a fantastic character. been a while since ive seen a great character like her.
by the way, how far am I into it? almost done?

[Jan-Poo]

You are not too far from the end.

[Marion]

Shannon is a good character and it's too bad that she dies right away in EP 1. A lot of people I know pit her as the 'damsel in distress' character, but the amusing part is that Jessica and George are more of that type as seen in EP 2.

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by IcecoldAssassin

Have not finished episode 2 yet but (I think?) im about 3/4ths there.

I havent decided weather I love Beatrice or just hate her.

Spoiler for spoilers:

When the scene where shannon was trying to hold off her attacks and she knows she cant hold off for much longer, she talks to George and says if he would say "i love you" one more time. then right before he finishes saying love Beatrice just slaughtered them

I have to say she is a fantastic character. been a while since ive seen a great character like her.
by the way, how far am I into it? almost done?

I guess at least you pass the mind-raped part unharmed.

Well, there's a lot more fun up ahed in EP3. Enjoy your staying at Rokkenjima.

[IcecoldAssassin]

haha I am indeed enjoying my stay.

[ferthepoet]

Just finished reading Umineko episode 2 as well as episode 2 tea party and ???

and I have the following observations:

1. Have anyone else noticed that in the tips Kumazawa is not described as furniture created by Kinzo as Shannon, Kanon and Genji are...... I think there might be some significance to this

2. I really hope that the explanation is not allucinations.... that would suck, I think the magic scenes are just Beato showing Batler how she would have done it with magic, much like she did in the tea party of epi one

3. Beatrice said Battler was incompetent in red which leads me believe that Kyrie. who seems to be a superior detective than Battler, surviving the first twilight is essential for defeating Beatrice, I think Bernkastel would eventually cause this to happen in order to make the game more even.

4. Can anyone explain if the portrait of Jessica-Beatrice, the beatrice with school girl jacket that looks similar to Jessica clothes is real.. I´m really confused about this 2 portraits.

5. Am I the only one who finds some religious subtext to Umineko

6. Am I the only one bothered that Battler does not even once think about Ange during Episode 1 and 2...... any normal person would have been thinking aobut how difficult it would be to tell her her parents are dead or at least how his life is screwed becuase he would have now to be parent to her.....