2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

There’s no need for massive additional security for mail ballots... Vote by mail states runs elections that are just as secure...

Idk man, that seems like a contradiction to me.

Remind me again, how much money gets poured into your average campaign for presidential elections? Not to even mention the work of third party advocates, activists, volunteers, and so on.

And how much do you think you would need to acquire, fill in, and drop off other people's mail-in ballots?

Mail might work when the stakes are not too high. Even then, I don't really like it - seems like too many fault lines.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

No state that has implemented voting-by-mail has gone back to the traditional method. Most voters in those states like the process. Nor is there any evidence of greater fraud in VBM states.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/mail...ud-ballot.html

There's never a problem until there's a problem.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Jaden

There's never a problem until there's a problem.

"A billion chinese people can't be wrong" The Lost Boys (1987)

[Sheba]

Bully-in-chief have screamed Fraud, after having sabotaged the institutions that enabled ppl to vote against him, until his cult, "fence sitters", and "neutrals" believe it.

[SeijiSensei]

"The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.

“When states have close elections, many will recount ballots. All of the states with close results in the 2020 presidential race have paper records of each vote, allowing the ability to go back and count each ballot if necessary. This is an added benefit for security and resilience. This process allows for the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."

https://www.cisa.gov/news/2020/11/12...uncil-election

People who worried about electronic voting machines should push for voting-by-mail. Then everyone casts a paper ballot.

I don't see the relevance of an article telling us that lots of deluded Trump supporters believe their man when he says the election was rigged. It wasn't. They're wrong. Time to move on.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by CISA

"The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history."

Bigly statement! Guess they've adopted some Trumpian language. Or maybe the previous ones were really terrible.

Seriously though, you don't think there was even an appearance of impropriety? It's all just orange man bad? OK then.

[GDB]

I mean, you haven't presented any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to disprove the safety of mail-in voting. Instead you've just been saying how it FEELS like there MIGHT be something afoot. That maybe something might have happened because you feel like maybe it's not what you're used to.

[Jaden]

The problem with evidence of fraud is that we only get it when somebody gets caught, which is not that often. So we can claim that fraud is rare and gets corrected every time.

And yeah, it's true, I probably have more cynical views about politics than most, so I think whatever fraud gets caught is probably just the tip of an iceberg.

The whole practice of mail-in voting is pretty alien to me, ballot harvesting even more so. That just seems inherently fraudulent to me, and it couldn't happen if ballots weren't sent out so liberally.

It's legal in many states, and I understand why. Ever since it became obvious that increased turnout favors Democrats, there's been a tug of war between voter suppression by Republicans, and efforts to get everyone and their dogs to vote by Democrats. That's how integrity of elections is gradually eroded and you end up with something that's neither fair or secure.

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Bigly statement! Guess they've adopted some Trumpian language. Or maybe the previous ones were really terrible.

Seriously though, you don't think there was even an appearance of impropriety? It's all just orange man bad? OK then.

Relative comparisons, those darn Russians stole 2016 for Trump after all.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by ramlaen

Relative comparisons, those darn Russians stole 2016 for Trump after all.

From the man that said "You are all making this stuff about Trump not wanting to leave the white house if he looses". Your credibility burned into shambles long ago, I am surprised you do not feel embarrassed in the least. There was meddling in 2016, which is quite different from stealing an election, but you don't care for the difference, all you care for is orange man for king.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Seriously though, you don't think there was even an appearance of impropriety? It's all just orange man bad? OK then.

"Orange man bad" is a terrible meme/straw man.

An appearance of impropriety means nothing if its not substantiated. There isn't a single piece of evidence supporting the claim that there was widespread voter fraud that would be enough to overturn the election.

The proof of this being that every single voter fraud lawsuit by the Trump campaign has either been tossed out or ruled against them. (aside from maybe one which wasn't even about fraudulent votes).

Now, the claim that Senator Lindsay Graham attempted to pressure Republican election officials in Georgia to exclude legally cast votes from the recount sounds more damning than any claim of voter fraud I've seen. Especially since the one claiming it is the Republican election official.

Originally Posted by Jaden

The whole practice of mail-in voting is pretty alien to me, ballot harvesting even more so. That just seems inherently fraudulent to me, and it couldn't happen if ballots weren't sent out so liberally.

This right here might be the true sticking point. Ballot harvesting aside (its pretty weird to me as well), there's no reason why mail-in voting wouldn't be secure. People have been voting by mail for decades.

[Ithekro]

Generally the sighted argument that mail-in ballots were an easier way to enact fraud in the vote was due to a 2005 commission run by former President Carter and former Secretary of State Baker. However those sighting the commission's report don't mention the recommendations of said report and how safe mail-in ballots are when proper safeguards are in place.

https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr...es-050620.html

[coded321]

Apparently, despite republicans chanting for weeks during trump's impeachment that hearsay is not evidence, now want us to believe their feelings are evidence enough to warrant an investigation of the vote counting system/process. Too bad for them, facts don't care about their feelings, and the fact is, there is zero evidence that widespread election/voter fraud has taken place.

[Guardian Enzo]

Even half of Repubs now say Biden won fair and square. It's just flailing to satisfy Trump's narcissism and Rudy's 20K per day legal fees. The really disgusting part of this is how almost all R elected officials are refusing to stand up to him.

[Johnny Dy]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Even half of Repubs now say Biden won fair and square. It's just flailing to satisfy Trump's narcissism and Rudy's 20K per day legal fees. The really disgusting part of this is how almost all R elected officials are refusing to stand up to him.

Did I ever say that republicans are cowards? Or just all of those people who voted for Trump? I can't remember...
One day, when they grow a spine and can STAND UP STRAIGHT for what they believe in... that day, they won't be R anymore.

[Sheba]

The party of Abraham Lincoln, what a fall from grace.

[Johnny Dy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The party of Abraham Lincoln, what a fall from grace.

Heh, I'm about to say something revolting, cover your ears/eyes those who aren't fans of revolting stuff. But true, as much as I'm concerned.
Although in this day and age, revolting is only allowed in fantasy, when it's true, you're liable for repudiation if not worse.

We've got to admit something: the muricans really do like saying "Before Lincoln there was the expression <<The United States are>>, after Lincoln <<The United States is>>", but in the same time they love having different states with different laws so if in one state you can go to prison for killing a retarded person, like Massachusetts, you can just pass right into Texas, they kill them by law there. I bet they execute at least one every year! Why don't they execute them in the same day of the year and make it a holyday, could be called "Retarded execution day", it would be true because they execute a retarded person but also because it's retarded!

With other words they like being seen as a power together, but also like to have the freedom to foul around doing whatever the fuck they feel like just by crossing from one state to an other, having retarded quotes like "The sovereign state of Louisiana reserves it's right to kill whoever the fuck they want, including people who haven't killed anyone else!"(it's a real law, check it out - non murder crimes punished by death because retards{republicans} vote for them) And why are they having such shit? Because they like the idea of "in my house, nobody decides but me, so I can execute whoever the fuck I want" instead of the majority from all of the country to decide for all, to make a law that must be abided by all, like in the rest of the fucking human civilisation! I call crass hypocrisy on that one. When they go to war - they're united, when they go to peace principles, ways of life - they're divided! ARE YOU UNITED, OR ARE YOU DEVIDED!? FUCKING DECIDE!

Not that we wouldn't be guilty of hypocrisy ourselves every now and again, but what's too much is too much, and when it's in plain sight and people beat their chest while saying they're proud of it, I think classifies on the too much side.

PS: I wonder what kinda kool-aid I drank this morning!? I think it's the good stuff!
Always remember, a man that knows something, argues with you, a man than believes something, kills you. Then you better well know, not believe.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The party of Abraham Lincoln, what a fall from grace.

That wasn't the case since a long time; it's the party of the southen strategy, voodoo economic and Trump the same way the Democrate are the party of woke politic, Bill Clinton and the expectation of getting all the minority vote by default.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The party of Abraham Lincoln, what a fall from grace.

And TR too, lest it be forgotten. Two of the greatest progressive presidents in American history.

The Republican Party's descent really began with the 1912 election, when party insiders stole the nomination from TR (trying to return after foolishly promising not to run for a second full term in 1908), and gave it to the incumbent Taft - a dyed-in-the-wool conservative. The conservatives intentionally lost the battle (TR ran under the Bull Moose ticket and beat the Republicans into third place, the last time the Ds and Rs didn't finish 1-2) knowing they'd win the war - the party has stayed faithfully right-wing pretty much ever since.

That said, for a long time it was a far cry from what it's now become. A party for the rich, yes, but at least a party that respected the democratic system in place. That started to change in Reagan era (Nixon was more of an aberration) and it's accelerated exponentially in the 21st Century. People are mistaken if they think Trump is the disease - he's merely the symptom.

[Ithekro]

I'd much rather have a TR like figure that anyone that has run since I started voting in the 90s.

[Guardian Enzo]

That's a high bar. By some measures I think he could be judged the greatest president in American history.