AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Higurashi

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2020-11-20, 09:27   Link #261
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
I wonder, if Rika knows that Takano is affected by the hinamisawa syndrome, its likey that Rika is warning Takano first and that is why things are si different regarding her.
maximilianjenus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 13:05   Link #262
BWTraveller
Born to ship
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
Funny thing, I'm not entirely sure they have the identities right as far as which was Mion and which was Shion. The two have swapped places many times and in stories where they're at the center we seem to often have them deliberately pretend to be one another. Anyway, if Mion did go L5 or even L4, it was remarkably controlled or only really came out at the end. We've seen plenty of people succumb to the syndrome, and even at level 3 it's quite clear that they're losing it. In particular, there's a very significant indication of unjustified levels of fear, anger and increased stress. We've only seen that at one point with Mion here, at the ladder, and again it's hard to say if that was really her. The rest of the time she's been very cool and collected, with really no indication of any kind of stress or adrenaline. That's very far from Hinamizawa Syndrome. Additionally, it seems much more in line with Shion's personality to harbor the sort of delusions shown at the ladder and the general enmity suggested. She always either hates Satoko or loves her and wants to protect her. If anyone would go to Satoko, it'd be Shion.

Of course, if the cops know about the tattoo and used that to confirm their identities that's another matter.

Another thing though is Satoko's reaction this time. She didn't really seem to have significant reason to suspect K1 of anything, but it was clear she did. Maybe she was starting to relapse due to going off the meds? Really I expect we'll see her die and/or break down in every arc where Takano and the clinic are removed.
BWTraveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 13:22   Link #263
The Green One
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Isn't there an organization that Takano answers to in the original series? Admittedly it's been a super long time and the details are fuzzy for me, perhaps they're just moving on their own and Takano is getting the script stolen from her rather than some mysterious 3rd party that we never saw before.

The writers seem to like following the Knox Decalouge and I propose some mysterious 3rd party organization would be in violation of the 1st.

Knox's 1st

It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. (This is the Umineko version rather than the original)

I don't think they would suddenly introduce a completely new faction in a story that's had countless iterations where they never existed or meddled before.
__________________

Last edited by The Green One; 2020-11-20 at 14:15.
The Green One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 13:47   Link #264
SidVicious
Anime addict
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: São Paulo/Brazil
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Isn't there an organization that Takano answers to in the original series? Admittedly it's been a super long time and the details are fuzzy for me, perhaps they're just moving on their own and Takano is getting the script stolen from her rather than some mysterious 3rd party that we never saw before.

The writers seem to like following the Knox Decalouge and I propose some mysterious 3rd party organization would be in violation of the 1st.

Knox's 1st

It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.

I don't think they would suddenly introduce a completely new faction in a story that's had countless iterations where they never existed or meddled before.
I remember Takano talking about Tokyo.
__________________
SidVicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 14:58   Link #265
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Knox's 1st

It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. (This is the Umineko version rather than the original)

I don't think they would suddenly introduce a completely new faction in a story that's had countless iterations where they never existed or meddled before.
That only applies to the mastermind not to accomplices or backers. There was absolutely no mention of Tokyo (the organization that is helping Takano) in the first chapters of the original story.

A completely different organization is therefore still in the realm of possibilities as long as the mastermind is someone that we know already. And then since this is a sequel, the mastermind could be someone that we have seen in original chapters even if they didn't appear yet in the current anime. For instance it could be Okonogi (not that I consider that likely).


Regarding Mion, there's more than enough evidence that those that have reached L4 can restrain themselves and appear totally normal. You just need to remember Rena in the recent Onidamashi when K1 welcomed her inside the night of the incident. She didn't give the least sign of being affected by the Hinamizawa syndrome until the moment K1 entered in the kitchen. And considering what she had brought there she had to have been at least on L4, besides it's not like you can jump to L5 from L2 in a few seconds, and in her last moments she was definitely L5, unless it was all K1's delusion.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 17:51   Link #266
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Considering how this builds from the original, using Tokyo as culprits is fair Game.
Also if mion builds the hinamisawa síndrome like Takano did, i can find that aceptable. Thought i AM guessing on this arc Rika did tell the truth to mion and thats how she died... It looks like the new rule y is Rika telling the truth to Takano too, which is a big también But works great to redem her character, and explains the running with tomitake.
maximilianjenus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 20:19   Link #267
BWTraveller
Born to ship
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Regarding Mion, there's more than enough evidence that those that have reached L4 can restrain themselves and appear totally normal. You just need to remember Rena in the recent Onidamashi when K1 welcomed her inside the night of the incident. She didn't give the least sign of being affected by the Hinamizawa syndrome until the moment K1 entered in the kitchen. And considering what she had brought there she had to have been at least on L4, besides it's not like you can jump to L5 from L2 in a few seconds, and in her last moments she was definitely L5, unless it was all K1's delusion.
Thing is, she still had her moments of clear breaks, and when she was actually trying to do something or diving into her paranoid delusions it was still quite clear that she was on a very extreme adrenaline rush and overwhelmed with fear/anger far beyond what could be rational. None of that here. Every single step of the way she remained calm and collected, even when discussing the supposed plots and the fact that people were coming in after them. Just far too cool at a moment of peak delusion to be HS in my book. We'll have to wait and see though. And again, I'm rather doubtful that the bodies were correctly identified. I've seen little in any arc to suggest that Mion would be in such a hurry to go to Satoko, but Shion has always been all about her. If I see a Sonozaki twin lying dead next to Satoko, I'm going to suspect it's Shion until I see her back.
BWTraveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 20:28   Link #268
ArrowSmith
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
So the ultimate goal is for Mion to defeat the curse of Oyashiro-sama? I thought in the original series that was Rika's objective.
ArrowSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 21:39   Link #269
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
Thing is, she still had her moments of clear breaks, and when she was actually trying to do something or diving into her paranoid delusions it was still quite clear that she was on a very extreme adrenaline rush and overwhelmed with fear/anger far beyond what could be rational. None of that here. Every single step of the way she remained calm and collected, even when discussing the supposed plots and the fact that people were coming in after them. Just far too cool at a moment of peak delusion to be HS in my book. We'll have to wait and see though. And again, I'm rather doubtful that the bodies were correctly identified. I've seen little in any arc to suggest that Mion would be in such a hurry to go to Satoko, but Shion has always been all about her. If I see a Sonozaki twin lying dead next to Satoko, I'm going to suspect it's Shion until I see her back.
Exactly. I think it's actually Mion in the well and Shion dead with Satoko.
MeoTwister5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-20, 23:57   Link #270
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I've seen little in any arc to suggest that Mion would be in such a hurry to go to Satoko.
As I said before, there isn't any real evidence that Mion was "hurrying" to Satoko, she never said whom she was going to meet to K1. Just because Ooishi found Mion dead near Satoko it doesn't mean she was the one she confronted. The fact that the gun found at the scene is completely different from what Mion showed to K1 proves that there's a third party involved, unless you think that Satoko was the owner of that gun, which is not very plausible.

BTW I'm confident that Ooishi can't possibly have mistaken Shion's body for Mion's body, considering he knows who is the heir of the Sonozaki Family, and the Yakuza's custom of tattooing their bodies is common knowledge.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 01:19   Link #271
Obelisk ze Tormentor
Black Steel Knight
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
Btw, how did K1 go from "fainted after got sent flying by a fatty otaku's punch once" to "able to break down steel bars with just three-times body charge"???
__________________
Obelisk ze Tormentor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 04:30   Link #272
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
The two arcs so far suggest this to me: The remedies for individual tragedies that led to the good ending originally aren't working anymore. Keiichi can trust Rena, but she succumbs to Hinamizawa Syndrome anyway. He can give the doll to whoever, it doesn't make a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
BTW I'm confident that Ooishi can't possibly have mistaken Shion's body for Mion's body, considering he knows who is the heir of the Sonozaki Family, and the Yakuza's custom of tattooing their bodies is common knowledge.
My memory is a bit poor on this, but they switched identities once several years prior to the story, right? We might be misled when their bodies are identified. "Shion"'s body is found at the bottom of the well in this arc, but I think that's actually the one we know as Mion.

In Watanagashi and Meakashi we didn't have this problem, because Shion was still alive when Mion's body was found. So the police didn't initially doubt their identities after discovering the bodies.

If both twins are found dead, and the police did a dental examination, they would identify the bodies by their assigned names, and we would be misled. I guess that would also happen if they went by tattoos, since the twins switched identities after they had already received their tattoos.

So that would suggest that this arc is a story of Shion returning to town in her quest to take back control, and expose an imagined criminal conspiracy, just like Watanagashi-hen.
__________________

Last edited by Jaden; 2020-11-21 at 06:46.
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 07:36   Link #273
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
My memory is a bit poor on this, but they switched identities once several years prior to the story, right? We might be misled when their bodies are identified. "Shion"'s body is found at the bottom of the well in this arc, but I think that's actually the one we know as Mion.
Yes but they switched so much time before that who was meant to be Shion is legally Mion and who was meant to be Mion is legally Shion. There isn't anyone that knows the truth outside the two of them.

As for dental records assuming they were used to begin with, you'd need to imagine that coincidentally they only have dental records prior to the switch and none after that, because it's the most recent dental records that is usually used to identify corpses.

But let's even say they went as far as to check mental records and that only those prior to the switch exist, then they would simply understand that the switch happened, because obviously it doesn't make sense for "Shion" to have a tattoo while "Mion" doesn't. So you'd also need to think that Ooishi told K1 that it was "Shion" in the well while fully knowing that K1 knows her as "Mion".
__________________


Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2020-11-21 at 07:51.
Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 08:50   Link #274
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Alright, let me try to sort things out...

Nevermind the dental records, Mion would be identified by the demon tattoo, and we wouldn't expect anyone to discover that she was actually born as "Shion", and it doesn't really matter, since that switch happened a long time ago.

Therefore in the latest episode, there's no mistake that it's Shion's body in the well, therefore it was actually Mion that sealed Keiichi in the prison, and who was the apparent culprit this time? That's a bit difficult to swallow, since we know from previous arcs that it's Shion with the motive.
__________________
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 10:36   Link #275
maximilianjenus
[E]
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
I think Rika gave up on keichi, told the truth to mion and tomitake.
Shion still went lv 5 and did some murders, mion tried to sabe k1 But got offed by Tokyo. That explains satokos presence by having her on the yamainus tail.
maximilianjenus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 14:25   Link #276
AC-Phoenix
Detective
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 33
I think the one who locked Keiichi up was still Mion, at least going by the eyelash theory. That being said, that happened in Keiichi's mind and is thus not trustable.

Still, unless Shion somehow managed to fall in love with Keiichi without snapping early on, it was definitely Mion who locked him up.

Keiichi being Mion's trigger sounds about right too, and what she did towards the end was basically the early stage of Mion going Stage 3-4 yandere on him. Moreover, being jealous is a clear motive for Mion to kill Shion too, especially in the light that it was Shion who got him into trouble.


"Want to visit my home? *Cat smile*
"Trust me, just let me get into my torture clothes first."
"Oh btw this is my very own torture room!"
"let me lock you up in a place only I have access too."

Basically the really light version of what Yuno did early on.

We also definitely know that the twin who called Keiichi in ep 7 has to be Mion, as her line of questioning wouldn't make sense for Shion at all.. There is no reason for her to confirm that they went into the storehouse together, as if she had already forgotten about it.

Another thing pointing towards Mion being the one in the torture basement is her claim that none of these devices have been used before, while we know that Mion forced Shion to remove her finger nails in that room, and has also removed some of her own so their mother could visit Shion.


So if there was a body swap at some point it had to have happened after Mion locked Keiichi away.

Something else I've been thinking about btw.: Since Hanyu isn't with Rikka right now... Could she be with Mion instead? I mean, we haven't seen stage 5 Mion before, so the way she acted would appear strange to us either way, but this shard specifically had some really strange Mion actions that could be explained easily if she was in a loop too.

That or it was indeed Shion who received the doll and later actually gave it to Mion.
__________________
Those who forget about the past are condemned to repeat it - Santayana

Sidenote: I'm seemingly too dumb for my current keyboard, so if you see the same character twice in a row, when it doesn't belong there just ignore it.
AC-Phoenix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 15:24   Link #277
BWTraveller
Born to ship
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
I'd say we can trust Keiichi's perception here actually. Just like how there are indications when someone's having an HS break, there are signs when the story's presenting things from the perspective of someone during a breakdown. Things tend to get warped, with strange eyes and extreme threats. There's clear evidence of a cause for extreme fear or anger. Once again, the interaction was just far too calm and collected for me to buy that either of them were in the midst of a break. Not to mention that Keiichi's not shown any signs of having succumbed at the end, even though it's pretty certain that someone who's made it to the point of hallucinations will show some signs of paranoia and psychological disturbance.
BWTraveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 16:46   Link #278
AC-Phoenix
Detective
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I'd say we can trust Keiichi's perception here actually. Just like how there are indications when someone's having an HS break, there are signs when the story's presenting things from the perspective of someone during a breakdown. Things tend to get warped, with strange eyes and extreme threats. There's clear evidence of a cause for extreme fear or anger. Once again, the interaction was just far too calm and collected for me to buy that either of them were in the midst of a break. Not to mention that Keiichi's not shown any signs of having succumbed at the end, even though it's pretty certain that someone who's made it to the point of hallucinations will show some signs of paranoia and psychological disturbance.
We can't trust his perception on the twins at all.

Keiichi hasn't witnessed the bodies himself, the images were only in his mind, so Shion being placed in the well isn't exactly a reliable PoV.

The same goes for us seeing Shion on the other side of the phone an episode earlier. Aside from her face not being shown too.

If the past episodes have shown us anything than it is that Keiichi has no reliable way of keeping Shion and Mion apart, even when they see each other face-to-face, yet alone if either of the twins calls him pretending to be the other, or at least decides not to clear up his misconception for her own benefit.

Either twins ability to fill in for the other without people realizing also suggest that they have a similar voice. The eyelash thing is a nice gimmick, if it is anything at all, is intended for us to keep them apart better, not for the characters.

You should also not trust their eyes too much.
For one, Mion has already shown us crazy eyes this episode, and even her behavior before that had a certain vibe of danger to it, when Keiichi asked the wrong questions.
Even stage 5 Rena had her seemingly sane moments where she looked calm and collected.

Mion probably saw Rika going Bernkastel on Keiichi and thought she was threatening him, prompting her to kill Rikka.
Her motive for killing her grandmother is that she is the only one who could overwrite her own command, causing someone she admitted loving harm.
Shion on the other hand is the one responsible for getting him into trouble in the first place.

That being said, we could also still deal with Shion who fell in love with Keiichi and didn't snap. - She did make a remark like that when she got a doll of her own from him.

When it comes to the twins, literally no one's perception is trustable unless the tatoo comes into play.
__________________
Those who forget about the past are condemned to repeat it - Santayana

Sidenote: I'm seemingly too dumb for my current keyboard, so if you see the same character twice in a row, when it doesn't belong there just ignore it.
AC-Phoenix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 19:22   Link #279
BWTraveller
Born to ship
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
We can't trust his perception on the twins at all.

Keiichi hasn't witnessed the bodies himself, the images were only in his mind, so Shion being placed in the well isn't exactly a reliable PoV.

The same goes for us seeing Shion on the other side of the phone an episode earlier. Aside from her face not being shown too.

If the past episodes have shown us anything than it is that Keiichi has no reliable way of keeping Shion and Mion apart, even when they see each other face-to-face, yet alone if either of the twins calls him pretending to be the other, or at least decides not to clear up his misconception for her own benefit.

Either twins ability to fill in for the other without people realizing also suggest that they have a similar voice. The eyelash thing is a nice gimmick, if it is anything at all, is intended for us to keep them apart better, not for the characters.

You should also not trust their eyes too much.
For one, Mion has already shown us crazy eyes this episode, and even her behavior before that had a certain vibe of danger to it, when Keiichi asked the wrong questions.
Even stage 5 Rena had her seemingly sane moments where she looked calm and collected.

Mion probably saw Rika going Bernkastel on Keiichi and thought she was threatening him, prompting her to kill Rikka.
Her motive for killing her grandmother is that she is the only one who could overwrite her own command, causing someone she admitted loving harm.
Shion on the other hand is the one responsible for getting him into trouble in the first place.

That being said, we could also still deal with Shion who fell in love with Keiichi and didn't snap. - She did make a remark like that when she got a doll of her own from him.

When it comes to the twins, literally no one's perception is trustable unless the tatoo comes into play.
I was referring to his perception of the situation as it happened, not his ability to distinguish the twins or the images of the bodies. His perception of what was happening as it happened didn't show signs of delusion or hallucination. And while Rena did indeed have apparently lucid moments when she went crazy, as I said before when she was actually diving into the delusions she was very different. In other words, if Mion was suffering from the condition, I'd expect some signs of distress when she was telling Keiichi about how people were using the curse as an excuse to kill, or when she saw the people coming and started preparing to fight. At those sorts of points she'd be slipping further into the delusions and it'd be very difficult to avoid showing signs. I'm sorry, but I just find it hard to say that the Mion we saw in the cellar was even L3, much less L5.

On a different note, I actually sort of suspected that the Mion we saw at the school might have been Shion, specifically because the incident was so close, practically identical to the incident in the original series, right down to her eventually just repeating "chigainai chigainai chigainai".
BWTraveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2020-11-21, 19:40   Link #280
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
I don't think the twins are that interchangeable. My impression of Mion was that she's the one main character who never flies off the handle, even in an extreme situation. It's only after confinement and torture that she started showing some HS symptoms, though even then not near L5.

Looking back at the behavior of Mion in this episode, I can still see it as barely within character, and even how she talks about taking responsibility sounds like Mion. From Shion, I'd expect to hear things like justice or revenge, not so much responsibility.

I still can't see Mion tossing her grandma and her sister down the well, though - has to be something else going on there.
__________________
Jaden is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.